Strange "shadow" effect - what am I seeing?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Rain, Oct 17, 2002.

  1. Rain

    Rain Producer

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    Ok, so I recently acquired a 51" Sony RPTV (KP51WS500). For the most part, I'm impressed with the improvement in picture quality, but now I'm starting to see things I haven't seen before.

    I'm noticing a sort of transparent white "shadow" around objects on the screen.

    I'm pretty sure I'm not seeing edge enhancement, as it is present in places you wouldn't expect EE to be (such as VE test patterns).

    I cannot even be sure that this effect is not an issue with the player?

    I should mention that I have not yet had my convergence properly calibrated, so perhaps it has something to do with that also?

    Anyone have any idea what this is and, if so, how to correct it (assuming that is possible)?

    Thanks in advance for any responses to yet another of my "newbie" questions.
     
  2. jeff peterson

    jeff peterson Supporting Actor

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    Sounds like your RPTV's sharpness may be set too high, Rain. Check it against VE's sharpness test pattern.
     
  3. Rain

    Rain Producer

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    Nope, I don't think that's it.

    Turning down the sharpness doesn't reduce the effect.

    Anyone else?
     
  4. DougR

    DougR Second Unit

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    Rain,
    Is this what your seeing ?
    Click !
     
  5. Rain

    Rain Producer

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    Dude!
    That looks like it.
    Um, I was supposed to turn that SVM thingy off, wasn't I? I seem to recall someone telling me that.
    Now I just need to figure out how. [​IMG]
     
  6. Rain

    Rain Producer

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    Ah, the HTF Search function. [​IMG]
    Found this in another thread, pertaining to the very TV I own:
     
  7. Steve Schaffer

    Steve Schaffer Producer

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    Rain,

    I've been told your set is essentially the same as my KP57HW40.

    If this is the case, there are 4 levels of SVM, varying from 0 or no svm in Pro, to level 1 in Movie, 2 in Standard, and 3 in Vivid.

    If you go into the service menu, look for an item called UVML. It has settings from 0 to 3 and is the control for the amount of SVM. You can change this in each mode, but may need to change it for each input. I have mine set at 0 except for Standard, where I have it set to 1 as it does seem to help with regular Satellite and cable pictures.

    If you find a service menu item called Axis, change it from 0 to 1. This will eliminate the red push from the color decoder.

    I am not certain that your service menu matches mine, but if you find these items in yours they should do the same thing for your set that they do for mine.

    If what you are seeing is semitransparent outlining to the right of a dark line or object on a white or very light background, it's called ghosting and can't be completely eliminated. Toshiba and most other sets I've seen have the same thing. I never saw it until someone pointed it out over at Home Theater Spot, then it drove me crazy for a few weeks. I turned off SVM, adjusted sharpness down to about 30% or so, and though it's still there I have to really look for it to notice it.

    Having had an Hitachi widescreen for 2 weeks before getting the Sony, I'll take the ghosting over the lousy stretch modes and blotchy fleshtones any day.
     
  8. Rain

    Rain Producer

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    Hi,

    I callibrated in Pro mode last night. Didn't make much difference.

    Yup, it's always to the right, so it probably is ghosting. Graeme Clark tells me he gets the same thing on his Tosh.

    Since I'm exchanging the TV anyway, due to a flaw in the screen, I've been piddling around with the service menu just for kicks. I'll try the adjustments you suggested to see what happens.
     
  9. Jack Briggs

    Jack Briggs Executive Producer

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    The SVM can be defeated from the user menu on most high-end Sonys. And what you're describing sounds like scan-velocity modulation artifacting. You will notice it far more easily on an RPTV.

    Simply go into the picture setup menu, scroll down to "SVM," and disable this "feature" from there. You will notice a difference.

    Some reviewers have calibrated Sonys in the Pro mode, others in the Movie mode. It depends on which looks best to you (I prefer Movie mode).

    As for "Sharpness," reduce it as far as possible without the picture appearing overly soft. Many prefer to reduce "Sharpness" completely (I'm one of them).
     
  10. Rain

    Rain Producer

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  11. Steve Schaffer

    Steve Schaffer Producer

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    SVM defeat in user menu is on most all Wega direct view sets, but not on the RPTVs. UVML in the service menu does the trick though.

    When I first started to notice the ghosting I went into a bunch of stores and saw the exact same thing on virtually every set on display, both rptv and direct view. Oddly, every Hitachi HD rptv I looked at in stores had it worse than my Sony, even with sharpness down and svm off (it is in the user menu on Hitachis), yet I never saw it on the one I had for a couple of weeks in my house.
     
  12. Rain

    Rain Producer

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    I did the suggested tweaks.
    It's nice with the red push off. Now I can do late night movie marathons without breaking out the Visine. [​IMG]
    Turned off the SVM too.
    I can still see the ghosting, unfortunately. But I'm sure I'll get used to it.
    I'm just noticing everything now because the TV is still very new to me.
    Steve, I'd be curious to know if you've tried to reduce overscan on your set. If so, what settings did you use...and how were the results?
     
  13. Jack Briggs

    Jack Briggs Executive Producer

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    How high is the overscan, Rain?
     
  14. Steve Schaffer

    Steve Schaffer Producer

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    Rain,

    I haven't tried to reduce overscan on my set. I do have the service manual for it and have looked over the tweaks section at Home Theater Spot. The procedure looks pretty daunting to me and does involve having to do a manual convergence. Since my convergence and geometry is already as close to perfect as my eyes can detect, I decided the risk of messing things up was too high (or that my confidence level was too low, lol).

    I do get the distinct impression that my overscan in Zoom, which I only use for watching letterboxed network shows like ER or some few nonanamorphic dvds is excessive, but that in Full for anamorphic dvd it's tolerable. The openning credits on ER, for example, do seem a bit closer to the edge of the screen in Zoom than they should be. If I switch to Normal, I notice that the credits are farther away from the black bars than they are from the screen edge in Zoom.

    This means that I'm also probably losing picture when I zoom nonanamorphic letterbox dvds, but I don't have many of those. The zoom seems to spread out the raster a bit anyway so I usually watch letterboxed nonanamorphic in Normal and just put up with the windowboxing. I get a smaller image but it's nice and tight.

    I'm using a Panny CP72 without a scaling feature but still have my JVC that had it. I'm seriously considering getting a component video switcher and putting the JVC back into use so I can use it for nonanamorphic letterboxed stuff.
     
  15. Phil L

    Phil L Supporting Actor

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    I have a 51ws500 and I see the same overscan and results that Steve wrote about.

    From the Avia patterns I see overscan at about 4-5 percent but it might be worse in zoom.

    Steve,

    I'm looking at getting the Panny CP-72. What are your thoughts on it?
     
  16. David Barteaux

    David Barteaux Stunt Coordinator

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    The ghosting or ringing seen on most Sony RPTV's is a symptom of the Phillips video amp used as I understand, and cannot be completely defeated. I see it on my 51WS500 but its not distracting. I love the picture on my new HDTV[​IMG]
    I would wait 100 hrs and perform a manual service mode convergence.
    PS, I like the red push :b but I may set turn it off when I get used to the TV more.
     
  17. Steve Schaffer

    Steve Schaffer Producer

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    Phil,

    I've had the CP72 about a month now. I used the JVC progressive scan 7 disc changer for about a year.

    Overall I'd say the picture quality on the Panny is a little bit better, with the difference being much more noticeable on video-based material than film based stuff, due to it's better 3/2 pulldown chip. Special features sections and most dvds of TV shows look better on the Panasonic. The JVC has more picture adjustment options, allowing you to customize color, tint, brightness, contrast, sharpness, and gamma (brings out shadow detail without turning blacks gray).
    It also has a scaling feature for non-anamorphic dvds. This means one can leave a 16/9 tv in Full mode instead of zooming and losing resolution. It also puts black bars on the sides of 4/3 discs.


    The Panny's a bit better at playing rentals with a few scratches on them, has a quieter disc change mechanism, but a cheap/nasty remote.

    Neither player has the "chroma bug". For versatility and features I like the JVC, but for overall best picture quality the Panasonic is better.
     
  18. Rain

    Rain Producer

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    Well this "ringing" or whatever it is bothers me a lot. It is very distracting.
    If it's just a Sony thing, then I'm going to consider returning it and trying a different brand.
     
  19. Steve Schaffer

    Steve Schaffer Producer

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    Rain,
    It's not just a Sony thing. There were many long threads about it in the Tosh forum over at Home Theater Spot.

    Look really closely at all the sets in the stores, it's highly likely you'll see it on most of 'em. If you can make it go away by turning sharpness down or turning off svm (many makes let you do this in the user menu) then that may be a better choice for you.
     
  20. Rain

    Rain Producer

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    Even with the SVM off and the sharpness all the way down, it doesn't make any difference.

    We are not talking about something barely noticable here, we are talking about something that is obvious and completely distracting.

    I pointed this out to someone who owns a Tosh set and he told me that this is does not happen on his.

    I'll be returning to the retailer on Tuesday. I'll check out the other sets. If I don't see it on them, it's bye-bye Sony.
     

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