STR-DA5000ES, AVR-3805, RX-V24000 ! Ahh! Help!

Discussion in 'AV Receivers' started by Mike~Sileck, Apr 26, 2004.

  1. Mike~Sileck

    Mike~Sileck Supporting Actor

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    Alright, sO I thought I had narrowed my search for a receiver down to the Yamaha RX-V24000 and the Denon Avr-3805, but I recently came along the Sony STR-DA5000ES for the same price range (1100). It claims to have 170 wpc, all the same modes, and variable zone 2/3 support. Is this a bad receiver? I'm looking b/c this would be a huge power increase, if it really is 170wpc when you have 7 channels pumping. Can someone give me some info on this, or any comparision info? Thanks a lot!!

    Mike
     
  2. TimMc

    TimMc Stunt Coordinator

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    If it really is that huge power increase...

    I'd suggest some serious investigation on this one. Not that certain Sony stuff has their power ratings reportedly overrated or stuff like that (I didn't really say that ;~). It's just that 170Wx7 20-20K seems like a pretty heroic accomplishment for a ~29 pound receiver (or is it 31lbs? The specs vary from site to site). This is just my personal prejudice sneaking through (and no, I don't measure everything simply by weight) but I would have thought that a power supply and stuff to support those specs might come closer to an HK7200 (60+lb) instead of being ~20% lighter than even a Yamaha 2400. Plus, it doesn't seem to have PLIIx - that's something that some folks might frown about.

    It's not that this unit won't be wonderful - it's just that it's kind of hard to tell yet. I couldn't even find consistent specs so I'd be a bit leery until you've done proper research (and that definitely means not listening to me!). If you like the features on the 2400 and/or 3805 they'll be hard to beat for sound. Just make sure you try each if you can to make sure it's what you really want and want to hear - buyers remorse is definitely out of style this year.
     
  3. Kevin Alexander

    Kevin Alexander Screenwriter

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    The STR-DA5000ES employs the all new digital amps that many are raving about right now. Digital amps produce little to no heat which means that you have lesser weight due to not having traditional amps and the heavy heatsinks which contribute greatly to a receiver's weight. Because of all these things and others, digital amps can produce more power than that of regular amps. The 5000ES is an incredible piece, but do your research on these new digital amps first before you buy since the technology is still somewhat recent.
     
  4. DarrylM

    DarrylM Stunt Coordinator

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    I would consider the Denon.


    Most manufacturers use digital amps because they are smaller and cheaper, not because they sound better. As a matter of fact, manufacturers have spent a great deal of effort in getting digital amps to sound as good as solid-state amps, because of the inherent limitations of digital switching at both ends of the frequency response spectrum. Consequently, unless you feel that conventional receivers weigh too much, the use of a digital-switching amp in low- and mid-fi electronics probably isn't a selling point. It's also inaccurate to call them "more powerful," which would be like saying my 200 HP engine has more horse-power than your 200 HP engine.
     
  5. Kevin Alexander

    Kevin Alexander Screenwriter

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    Many feel that they do sound better. Having not heard a digital amp, I can't say...but in the case of the original poster Mike Silek, they might be worth looking into. After all, he did ask......
     
  6. Dave Moritz

    Dave Moritz Producer
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    I would go with the Denon as well. Especialy since Sony over rates there power output. And the digital amps IMHO are not as clean as your standard analog configurations. You also may want to do some homework on the Sony STR-DA5000ES? I am not sure that the Sony will have the flexability and features that the Denon AVR-3805 has. I saw both at the CES show in Vegas this past January and at low levels the Sony does have a decent sound. But at louder levels from what I have heard the Sony has a slightly harsh sound vs the Denon. The Denon has alot of features and very nice sound and if you want to beef it up later on down the road some power amps would kick it up a few notches. It depends on what features you need and what you are looking to accomplish. I would pick a number of avr's and then demo the same music and movies on each one so that you can accuratley demo each peice. In that price range I would look at the Pioneer Elites and Yamaha's over the Sony. But thats just my sugestion, but check into the Sony as well and gather all the info you can to make the best choice that works for you.

    Good Luck and let us know how it works out?
     
  7. JackS

    JackS Supporting Actor

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    I think I'd wait awhile on the Sony DA5000. Along with the many raves there are also quite e few complaints about video switching and in some units an audible hiss. Sony may have worked out these problems but, until you know for sure it's probably best to proceed with caution. If you're buying now, buy something else or get an understanding from your Sony dealer that if problems are present, a switch to another brand will be made. Good Luck,
     
  8. DarrylM

    DarrylM Stunt Coordinator

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    I've never heard anyone claim that digital amplifiers generally produce "better" sound than tube or solid state amplifiers. Again, switching distortion and problems at higher frequencies (remember that a 20 kHz frequency is 1,000 times faster than a 20 Hz frequency) are common to digital amps. This is why digital amps were primarily used only in subwoofers up until recently.

    Granted, designs like Tripath have made a lot of progress. And certainly a "good" digital amp can sound better than a "mediocre" solid state amp. But I would be skeptical of anyone claiming that current digital amp (class D or T) technologies are sonically superior to comparable solid state amps, without offering some science as to why they feel that this is the case.

    When companies like Sanyo and Aiwa use digital amps in their audio components, or projection TV companies use them in their TV cabinets, it is out of a size and cost consideration. With Sony, who knows. However, since I don't think their solid state gear sounds all that great, I would be that much more leery of their digital gear.
     
  9. Kevin Alexander

    Kevin Alexander Screenwriter

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    And I won't even try to convince you otherwise. [​IMG]
     
  10. Wayne Ernst

    Wayne Ernst Cinematographer

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    Dave, Actually, Denon is just as guilty when it comes to over-rating of power outputs. However, keep in mind that basically any mainstream theater receiver (price range: $400 - $1,000+) should be capable of hitting reference volume levels while watching a movie, provided the speakers being used don't have too low of an efficiency rating and the room where the gear is located isn't substantially larger than average.

    Personally, I wouldn't buy just on power ratings alone. There are many factors that need to be considered. Is the receiver easy to operate? Does it sound good with the speakers one will be using? Does it provide sufficient connections for what the owner wants to connect to it?, etc.
     
  11. Mike~Sileck

    Mike~Sileck Supporting Actor

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    Thanks a lot for all of the information guys. If any of you are curious I'm going to run a 7.1 speaker set up with zone 2 (2 other speakers). The 7.1 is done in JBL Studio Series (S-CenterII, S-36IIPM (surround and surround back), and S312II for the fl/fr) If anyone knows of problems with these and the receivers mentioned plmk.

    Also, you guys keep mentioning "auditioning." What sort of store lets me do this, and how do I go about doing it? I figured there would be a re-stocking fee, no? Thanks for all of the good information!

    Mike
     
  12. Wayne Ernst

    Wayne Ernst Cinematographer

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    Mike, by auditioning, I meant in-store listening. However, some audio shops have been known to let customers take home a piece of gear overnight or during the weekend to test it out in their own home.
     
  13. DarrylM

    DarrylM Stunt Coordinator

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    Kevin, I was not "picking apart every word you said," but rather addressing your single statement concerning the performance of digital amplifiers, which I found to be very misleading. In my opinion, "misinformation" is quite common with digital amplifiers, and I've seen many people even go so far as to claim that digital amplification was inherently better because the source signal was digital, which is irrelevant at the output stage.

    And, personally, I find it irritating whenever the industry moves towards making compromises in quality and performance in order to save a buck, appeal to the lowest common denominator, or to make things "slimmer" simply because that's the trend now. Consequently, I would prefer to see people speak more objectively about the performance of these products, and not simply promote marketing hype.

    Nevertheless, I respect your right to your opinion, and am not trying to "pick on you" or anything.
     
  14. DarrylM

    DarrylM Stunt Coordinator

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    I remember a Sound and Vision review that measured the power of a Sony DB1070 ($1,000) at 31 W per channel with 5 channels driven, while Sony rated it at 100 W x 6 into 6 ohms. The Denon 2802 ($800) was measured at 74 W per channel in the very same review, while Denon rated it at 90 W x 6 into 8 ohms.
     
  15. Wayne Ernst

    Wayne Ernst Cinematographer

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    Oh, but you need to look further than that. Check the links at Ecoustics.com. You'll see links to reviews for the the Denon AVR-1804 only putting out approximately 35 watts per channel vs. the 80 or 90 that they claim. Also, there is a newer review of a Sony receiver which compares to one of the new models - the review was done on the European version and it really fared quite well with the tests. I forget the actual numbers, but they were in a good range.
     
  16. DarrylM

    DarrylM Stunt Coordinator

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    I haven't seen any quantitative evaluation for the 1804 -- only a very positive review in The Perfect Vision. Do you have the actual link? Also keep in mind that the 1804 is one of Denon's entry level receivers; the DB1070 cost twice as much and produced less output power.

    The last quantitative review I read on a Sony product (in Sound and Vision) also demonstrated a much lower measured output power than Sony had claimed. Sony's response to this was that their ratings of say, 100 W x 6, were meant to indicate that any single channel could deliver 100 W, not all six channels driven simultaneously.
     
  17. JackS

    JackS Supporting Actor

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    Darryl- I doubt that any do. Maybe the big receivers with the big price tags. Other than that I wouldn't trust any rating by any mfg for any receiver. This is why I always promote the use of an amp. Not everyone can afford a flagship and not everyone sees the value in these monoliths.Problems with receivers began with the advent of surround sound and as extra channels were added, problems began to multiply. There is one simple comprimise most of us can afford and that is the addition of and external amp. The plus side of this is obvious. We can now purchase the receiver we like and do not have to take into account anyones word about power capabilities. In the end we really do get our cake and eat it to. Buy the receiver you like based on features and capibilities you want and let the amp take care of the rest.
     
  18. Fernando Saa

    Fernando Saa Stunt Coordinator

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    I agree with JackS, get the Yamaha 2400 and add an amp later. I don't think I'll need it myself though, this thing pumps a lot of power all by itself and cleanly!. Sorry, I had to mention it.[​IMG]
     
  19. Shiu

    Shiu Second Unit

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    DarrylM, please read the pdf file in this link http://www.homecinemachoice.com/fram...?reviewid=3695 for a recent review on a Sony DB790, Onkyo SR-501, a JVC, Marrantz SR-4400 and the Denon 1804. This may be the European review that Wayne was referring to. The 1804, rated 90W per channel tested at 35 X 5, the Sony, rated 90W per channel tested at 65 X 5. The Sony was picked "best choice". The conclusion says that "the Sony is ultimately the impressive amp in this round-up.....". As for the 1804, "the power amplifiers are less than impressive when all channels are driven..........". It did say that the Denon sound is clear and transparent under all conditions.

    I have only owned one Sony receiver so far, the DA4ES. It sounds great with the help of my old Adcom 2 channel amp but it sounded pretty good too before I hooked up the amp to it. It is too bad that you did not have better experience with so many of them. I am not against Denon, in fact I am planning on getting the 3805 before the end of this year. I am not expecting to getting better SQ, but I am tempted by its features such as the auto speaker setup, HDCD, PLIIx etc.

    By the way, digital amps apparently do not have those big transformers, but then I do not understand why the 9000ES (over 60lbs) weighs much more than the HKAVR7200.
     
  20. Wayne Ernst

    Wayne Ernst Cinematographer

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    Keep in mind the lab tests are not performed in a typical situation where we'd be using the receiver to listen to music or watch a movie. The Sony STR-DA4ES that they were testing at the time was also on the shelf in my cabinet. I was shocked at how the review turned out because the 4ES was truly an impressive receiver with plenty of power for my needs.
     

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