Stop complaining about j6p

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Karl Schuster, Oct 22, 2001.

  1. Karl Schuster

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    Let me establish these facts first:
    1: I have been collecting DVD's and LD's for over 10 Years.
    2: I have always purchased W/S where available.
    3: I agree that OAR is better.
    4: I have a Serious Home Theatre with a Projector.
    Now I have seen hundreds of posts on this forum about people complaining about J6P. I assume that these complaints are only being made for these following reasons:
    1: Movie Studios are considering to withdraw support for letterbox, Anamorphic, OAR DVD's.
    2: Movie Studios wish to provide more/improved support for P&S Versions.
    3: Retailers and Video Retailers are giving more support to P&S over W/S. (could be the result of ignorance)
    4: J6P and other ignorant/uninformed people are damagaing the whole OAR debate. Or they just dont get it.
    BEFORE WE ALL START COMPLAINING AT J6P, BLOCKBUSTER, WALMART ETC, REMEMBER THIS:
    "J6P helped DVD achieve the mainstream success it has today".
    I DO NOT support the theories of J6P, however I believe that without the MAINSTREAM Success of DVD there would not be such an abundance of Titles coming out (and that includes Special Editions etc). In fact compare the success of DVD to that of Laserdisc!. They dont even compare, the sheer volume of DVD already makes it a clear winner, not to forget that DVD makes owning movies so much more cheaper than LD Did. We should be grateful for DVD has given us, and of course we should not be complaicent.
    Movie studios are going to support the demand of the mass market. But what is the actual percentage of OAR + P&S demand in the market?
    Could Movie Studios support both formats with every release?
    Or more importantly which market segment (OAR or P&S) makes up the bigger percentage of DVD owners who purchase DVD's (Not Rent)? If it is our market share (OAR) that is bigger, then surely movie studios will continue to support it. However if the bigger share is that of J6P and their P&S DVD's, then what does the future hold for us?
    We need to me constructive and NOT DESTRUCTIVE when tackling this issue. Perhaps we need to be Educators, BUT WE DO NOT WANT TO BE SEEN AS COMPLAINERS, WHO NEVER SEEM SATISFIED.
    I think that DVD has some other issues that also need more attention brought them. For instance, why cant we have one release for the whole world, instead of different versions for different regions. Why does region 4 get ER, BUFFY, Futurama, Friends before Region1. I think that with DVD being a medium that embraces such a wide and diverse market, we should be concentrating our efforts on making the format fair, equal and available to everyone, and by no means be discriminating. As we have every right to buy a DVD in OAR, so does J6P to have one in P&S.
    Oh, and one last thing:
    I live in Australia and I order all my DVD's from amazon.com, I cant recall the last time I saw a P&S title on there. It seems that 99% of DVD movies are w/s or OAR.
    Also in Australia all the dvd's are w/s or OAR too. In fact in Australia I do not believe there is even a choice between w/s and P&S, you just get w/s. So I guess J6P should be the one complaining, not us.
    And finally if J6P is reading this, if you dont like w/s or OAR then use your "Zoom" button on your remote. If you dont care if you see less, then it does not matter [​IMG]
    [Edited last by Karl Schuster on October 22, 2001 at 10:33 PM]
     
  2. Brian Lawrence

    Brian Lawrence Producer

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    Sorry, But Joe Sixpack was officially deemed the whipping boy of the HTF. I think it's in the forum rules somewhere [​IMG]
     
  3. Glenn Overholt

    Glenn Overholt Producer

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    I really can't complain about J6P for the problem. Yes, they are a problem, but it isn't their fault.
    If we go back 3 or 4 years, when DVD was really in its infancy, we were still getting new releases, and some of them were big titles. It didn't take the studios too long to figure out that releasing new movies onto DVD would increase sales. I am sure it did.
    But then we ran into the Blockbuster factor. It is sort of a chicken/egg thing but once they started ordering more and more, the studios cranked out more and more. The chain stores knew that they had to get in on this too, so they did.
    But this is where we get back to J6P. He started renting these movies and found out that they looked funny on his tube. Well duh!
    Having no training whatsoever (I'm speaking generally throughout this), the employees at BB and the other chains started getting complaints, and they passed them on to the studios.
    Well, this is the way I see it anyway. We're stuck between a rock and a hard place. From all of the posts that we've had on this I can only conclude that if a title should come out in P&S only, and at least one member of the HTF wants it in its full (and wide) beauty, then said studio had better be prepared for an onslaught that is going to make our Wonka campaign look like a joke. If some of us didn't realize how serious the situation was before, they do now.
    Glenn
     
  4. Gavin K

    Gavin K Stunt Coordinator

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    Quote: "We need to me constructive and NOT DESTRUCTIVE when tackling this issue. Perhaps we need to be Educators, BUT WE DO NOT WANT TO BE SEEN AS COMPLAINERS, WHO NEVER SEEM SATISFIED."
    Pointing out that Major video rental chains are spreading erroneous information to hordes of uneducated consumers is not destructive.
    Expressing concern that the aforementioned chains are only stocking MAR versions of high profile titles when the MAR version is available seperately in the name of "keeping their customers happy" is not destructive.
    Expressing frustration when a major studio whom we can probably thank for having DVD in the first place has to ask "Is there really a demand for flat comedies in OAR?" is not destructive.
    Expressing curiosity as to why Pan and Scan on the fly is not more utilized by the studios when it seems like a good way to give ALL consumers the choice to view a movie as they desire without ruining it for those who don't share their views is not destructive.
    Uniting via forums and petitions to get a much beloved film such as Willy Wonka released OAR is not destructive.
    It has been reported "straight from the horse's mouth" that studios are being pressured from the likes of Wal-mart to stop releasing DVDs in OAR. Why is this? Who shops at Wal-Mart? Joe six pack, that's who.
    Will Studios continue to release OAR? Probably. But at what cost? If the MAR is included, then we run the risk of losing extras and losing A/V quality. If the different versions are released seperately then we run into the Cats & Dogs situation where no one seems to want to stock the OAR version. And if the major retailers don't carry the OAR versions, then the masses will blindly buy the MAR, thereby justifying MAR to the studio marketers and bean counters.
    OAR is a major issue for me, moreso than any other concerning DVD. I will complain, and complain loudly. And as long as Joe Six Pack wants to complain about OAR, I plan to complain about MAR.
     
  5. Brett_B

    Brett_B Supporting Actor

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  6. Frank_S

    Frank_S Supporting Actor

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    It's all about the money. The studios could care less who they satisfy, they put their focus where maximum profit lies. If J6p outnumbers HTF enthusiasts, we're going to get screwed! I don't think that studios will place there allegiance with the early adopters if we're the minority.
    J6p unfortunately will get his/her way since their ignorance speaks louder than our passion for OAR.
     
  7. Matthew_S

    Matthew_S Second Unit

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    I will NEVER relinquish my hate for J6P!!! NEEEEEEEVER!!!!
    (rides off on horseback into sunset with sword drawn)
     
  8. Rich Allen

    Rich Allen Second Unit

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    I think we need to stop complaining about J6P for the simple reason that there are a lot more things going on right now that we need to spend the time and energy on.
    J6P is the least of my worries right now.
     
  9. Eugene Hsieh

    Eugene Hsieh Supporting Actor

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    I agree with you Karl. From the other thread: "...without J6P we certainly would not have as wide availability of titles as we do now. I consider J6P potentially our greatest ally."
    I especially find it ironic that some people with widescreen TVs (myself included) will zoom a 4:3 TV show to fill the screen, yet adamantly insist that movies must be shown in the OAR.
    I'm still just wondering why more widescreen movies are not flagged for on-the-fly P/S.
    ------------------
    Eugene Hsieh, VisorCentral FAQ Editor
    1000 km on a tank of gas??? Check out the Prius and drive the future now!
    Check out my switched Dual Boot DVD Player Hack.
     
  10. Frank_S

    Frank_S Supporting Actor

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    Eugene, don't confuse zooming a 4:3 TV show on our widescreen sets with J6p filling his/her screen.
    Avoiding burn-in is the reason most of us do it. [​IMG]
     
  11. Chris Maynard

    Chris Maynard Supporting Actor

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  12. Sean Conklin

    Sean Conklin Screenwriter

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    I'm sorry I don't know if I'm deep enough into this, but it seems that if WE (OAR)were to agree, even promote and push the studio's to spend the little extra to include BOTH OAR and MAR on the same disc, like a lot of Columbia Tristar releases, wouldn't we all win?
    I don't see any degradation of Video quality with these releases, just look at The Fifth Element, and Christine(this looks like it was made yesterday!)
    If we were to support this wouldn't everybody and the studio's WIN? I mean the DVD format has room for both formats including dts and Anamorphic,(shhh just don't put dts on the MAR side). What no extra room for the special feature's? Well, if the studio's don't have to worry about the OAR vs. P&S problem they would probably have lot's of extra money(because of the hugely increased sales) to throw out some SE WS specials.
    If all OAR supporters were to agree to and support wholeheartedly this concept would not everyone win?
    I mean I think the studio's would go with this if everyone was happy!!!
    I think Columbia Tristar has the right idea, C'mon lets face it, this would probably work and best of all we wouldn't have to worry about P&S only releases!!
    Wouldn't this work for 95% of the market?
    I'm more than happy with my dual format DVD's. In fact Christine and The Fifth Element are some of the best looking releases I've ever seen!!
    I hate P&S as much as everyone here(maybe more) , I am a huge OAR enthusiast, but the DVD format is here to stay and it's mainstream and we need a realistic solution to combat P&S only releases!!
    Of course if this worked, then J6P would be our ally, and we could address the bigger problem concerning "Joe 12 Pack" [​IMG]
    ------------------
    Sean
    "I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates who said.......I drank what?"
    [Edited last by Sean Conklin on October 23, 2001 at 03:18 PM]
     
  13. Ted Todorov

    Ted Todorov Cinematographer

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  14. Kenneth English

    Kenneth English Second Unit

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    The Education of Joseph should have begun when DVD was in its infancy. Now it's all about damage control, which is too bad because I personally have found that most people - as long as you don't talk down to them like they're morons for not knowing anything about this stuff (OAR, etc) - are all for the same things we are. It's just a matter of degree.
    For instance, it took a while to explain to my sister-in-law that widescreen is better but she now understands that this is about aesthetics and respect for an important art form. The difference between her and me is that, while she concedes that OAR makes the most sense, it's not something she's going to lose sleep over like I would. [​IMG] Priorities. For her, like most J6Ps I'd guess, a movie is rarely more than a good way to spend a few hours - a diversion. I couldn't imagine having the same attitude but then again I have a hard time figuring out people who collect unicorn figurines or who think bluegrass is a great musical form. [​IMG] People are just different.
    The point of all this (yes, there really is one!) is that we who really care about film and, by extention, DVD need to make a point of doing what we can to get the word out. The studios are only going to put out what makes money. If widescreen movies sold significantly better than P&S you'd very soon see little else on the market. Yes, it's frustrating that the studios often don't seem to care enough about their own holdings to make an effort at educating the everyday consumer but let's stop complaining and figure out a way to get the word out on our own. No one is going to do it for us.
     
  15. Shane Martin

    Shane Martin Producer

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  16. Eugene Hsieh

    Eugene Hsieh Supporting Actor

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    quote: Eugene, don't confuse zooming a 4:3 TV show on our widescreen sets with J6p filling his/her screen.
    Avoiding burn-in is the reason most of us do it.[/quote]I agree, but it does to an extent suggest that we don't care about OAR as much as we claim to. Also, there are many people who own very nice 4:3 TVs. They seem perfectly happy to risk burn-in to watch widescreen movies even if they happen to not watch a lot of (4:3) TV.
    quote: I never wanted DVD to go mainstream. I wish it would have remained like LD. There was never a problem getting the titles out especially as the format matured and we never had to deal with Joe Six Pack and his constant push for filling his screen.[/quote]From the beginning I always wanted DVD to go mainstream. We may have differing tastes in film, but I found LD extremely limiting. Not only were pace of releases slower than I had hoped (at least for the ones I wanted to see released), they were incredibly expensive. Plus, I never liked the format's quirks, but that's just my personal preference.
    quote: Speak for yourself! I wouldn't dream of zooming in 4:3 material, be it old movies or my Simpsons, I Claudius, Sex in the City, etc DVDs. Heck, I've even cured my overscan, so I can see the letterbox on 1.85:1 material.[/quote]Actually, like the others here I zoom for some TV to prevent burn-in. However, for stuff I'm truly interested in, like the Simpsons or open matte films, I watch 4:3 of course.
    quote: For every Wonka there are 10 if not 100 art/foreign films that were massacred because the studios who released them couldn’t be bothered and couldn’t care less.
    The only reason to rag on J6P is because it is fun to dump on people who are less clued than you – which as a perfectly OK way to let off steam, but it is not going to save DVD from P&S and other horrors. Driving the likes of Fox-Lorber out of business just might.[/quote]So true. I am much more interested in the hard to find films than the Hollywood blockbusters. Quite frankly if The Fifth Element were only available in 4:3 I wouldn't shed a tear (although I would complain, for the sake of OAR). I find it much more irritating that my Yi Yi DVD (Fox Lorber) looks like absolute crap. The poorness of the quality is only matched by my Qiu Jiu Da Guan Si (aka The Story of Qiu Ju, from ChinaStar DVD). I'd trade one Chris Farley movie for 10 (or even 1) Yi Yi any day, but of course ideally, everything should be OAR.
    ------------------
    Eugene Hsieh, VisorCentral FAQ Editor
    1000 km on a tank of gas??? Check out the Prius and drive the future now!
    Check out my switched Dual Boot DVD Player Hack .
    [Edited last by Eugene Hsieh on October 23, 2001 at 03:56 PM]
     
  17. AaronMK

    AaronMK Supporting Actor

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    I don't think many are complaining about J6P's P&S preference. It is a preference, and there is nothing wrong with having that preference.
    When people and certain companies call for P&S to replace OAR, that is a different story though. Consider Wal-Mart and their request that not only for P&S DVDs, but for OAR DVDs not be produced at all unless that OAR is 4:3. It is this attitude that their preference is correct and that ours is wrong and worth shit that provokes a lot of anger.
    Cramming both versions on a single disc is not the answer, as extra content and video quality suffer. There is no reason more separate releases and/or more dual disc sets cannot be released. Look, at American Pie 2. FOUR separate releases. Look at Shrek, a dual disc set choke full of extras and with both versions, for 19.99 MSRP. The Mummy and Patch Adams were given dual releases, and this was while there was still an overwhelming preference in the DVD market for OAR. Patch Adams was not that big a release either. These dual disc/separate release decisions would not be made if the additional costs are were that much. Additional sales and rentals from people who will only watch OAR (or those Hell-bent on P&S for that matter) will also more than offset these costs.
    There is also no reason why retail and rental outlets cannot stock both versions of titles. Don't give me this multiple SKU crap. If retailers did know how to stock and keep track of multiple products, or predict demand and order accordingly, they would not be in business.
    So it is not J6P we are complaining about. It is the fact that all people could be pleased with minimal additional effort on the parts of the studios, retail, and rental outlets, and they just don't care enough to put it forth. Why they decide not to when this effort will be rewarded with greater profits and increased customer satisfaction is beyond me.
    ------------------
    My DVD's
    If a movie is not available in OAR, than it might as well not be available at all.
    [Edited last by AaronMK on October 23, 2001 at 04:27 PM]
     
  18. Jay Mitchosky

    Jay Mitchosky Producer

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    Mainstream is a double-edged sword. Mike Knapp warned against this waaayyyy back. The risk of pan-and-scan only releases is becoming a serious threat as the market expands outside the bounds of the enthusiast.
    ------------------
    --Jay
    "No one can hear when you're screaming in digital."
    My Home Theatre Pictures...
    "You're no messiah. You're, you're a movie of the week. You're a ... t-shirt, at best."
     
  19. AdrianJ

    AdrianJ Supporting Actor

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  20. Sean Conklin

    Sean Conklin Screenwriter

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    quote: Mainstream is a double-edged sword. Mike Knapp warned against this waaayyyy back. The risk of pan-and-scan only releases is becoming a serious threat as the market expands outside the bounds of the enthusiast.[/quote]
    Exactly Jay, the point of my above post!
    It's mainstream, and it's expanded way beyond the enthusiast! and it's here to stay.
    There must be a way to combat P&S only releases to conserve our beloved hobby!
    ------------------
    Sean
    "I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates who said.......I drank what?"
    [Edited last by Sean Conklin on October 23, 2001 at 04:31 PM]
     

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