Stealing Remakes and Samples?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Carl Miller, Oct 13, 2002.

  1. Carl Miller

    Carl Miller Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,461
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Just thought this was kinda funny. Toni Braxton has accused Jay Z of intentionally remaking a Tupac song (Me and My Girlfriend) after someone from his label heard Braxton's version which, she claims, she had re-made first. Braxton called it the same song, and stated that Jay Z stole her song, noting that he even used the same samples.

    After hearing a million and one ridiculous statements proclaiming the use of sampled music a legitimate way to create something original, I can't help but chuckle over this.

    Oh the irony.
     
  2. Jagan Seshadri

    Jagan Seshadri Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2001
    Messages:
    528
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I still maintain that the whole genre can be computer generated. I'll leave it for a doctoral candidate in musicology to run with my hypothesis. [​IMG]
    -JNS
     
  3. Mike Broadman

    Mike Broadman Producer

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2001
    Messages:
    4,951
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
     
  4. Carl Miller

    Carl Miller Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,461
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
     
  5. Mike Broadman

    Mike Broadman Producer

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2001
    Messages:
    4,951
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Carl, do you have a link about this? I'm curious to read more.

    Anyway, let me put it this way: Toni Braxton and Jay-Z is to sampling what Kenny G is to saxophone playing.
     
  6. Carl Miller

    Carl Miller Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,461
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Sure Mike here you go.
    And I do agree with your analogy there as well. I'm not a hardcore anti-sampling person. I'm not a fan of the practice but I have no real problem with it whatsoever, provided those who do it admit to what it actually is and sample with permission.
    Where artists and people who support sampling lose me is when they try to slap a term or phrase on it in an attempt to redefine what they're doing. For example, "we're just taking an old song and putting a new spin on it"...Which is a fine explanation for doing a remake, or a cover, but not for sampling. The term "reappropriation" is often used by hip hop fans to justify sampling. Oh no, we're not borrowing anything, we're reappropriating it. Whatever that means.
    Ultimately though, sampling is nothing more than taking the creation of someone else, and using it as part of another song. Sampling advocates and artists should just admit this, rather than explain, excuse or rationalize it away.
    It wouldn't suprise me at all if Jay Z's employee heard Braxton's song and brought the idea into his studio as a "new" idea. It's a shady thing to do, but in a genre of music that revolves around the necessity of using other people's work to create their own, there is little room to cry foul and even less room to lay claim to the idea of sampling a particular song. If there was any room for this, the first rapper who legally sampled James Brown, George Clinton or Kraftwerk would have several thousand lawsuits to file.
     
  7. Seth_L

    Seth_L Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,553
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Carl,

    A large % of techno and electronic music are only looped samples. Are you suggesting that they're ripping off the original artists when in fact most people couldn't even tell what the samples are from?

    Seth
     
  8. Carl Miller

    Carl Miller Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,461
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
     
  9. Mike Broadman

    Mike Broadman Producer

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2001
    Messages:
    4,951
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Thanks for the link.

    Let's all just keep in mind that there are basically two kinds of "sampling":

    - Artist takes a song, keeps the general musical theme, and makes it sound different. Example: Puff Daddy sampling The Police's Every Breath You Take for his I'll Be Watching You.

    - Artist takes bits from numerous musical sources, usually some mixture of mostly obscure and popular records, and creates a completely original work (sound collage) that stands on its own. That is, one does not hear it and notice other songs. Example: Public Enemy's dense percussive sound collages as created by DJ Terminator X.

    The first kind is what most people who don't dig hip-hop are familiar with, unfortunately.
     
  10. Iain Lambert

    Iain Lambert Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 1999
    Messages:
    1,345
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    When the sampling is that extensive, then its basically a cover version, without all that tedious hard work of playing the instruments yourself. Having made that conceptual twist, the whole argument seems much more simple.

    Goodness knows how many times 'standards' like Unchained Melody or what have you have been recorded, and more recently we had Baz Luhrmann's Moulin Rouge track requiring another new cover of Lady Marmalade only about a year or two after All Saints did one. Indeed, the term 'cover' itself stems from a time when acts would attempt to hitch a sales ride by getting a version of a song out at the same time as someone else. Using samples of the original song is just a new variation on it.
     
  11. Seth_L

    Seth_L Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,553
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I beg to differ with those of you who say sampling should not allow the artist to any copyright of the sampled work. For example you can freehand draw a copy of a published chart or picture or any other visual work of art and it very legal. You now have a work of art that is copyrightable despite the fact that it can be almost identical to the original (depending on your skill level as an artist your "copy" can be virtually indistinguishable). I can "copy" a Thomas Kincade painting with paint and paintbrush and my copy is just as copyrightable as his despite looking just like it.

    Why do you think Sampling should be any different?

    Seth
     
  12. Carl Miller

    Carl Miller Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,461
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
     
  13. Seth_L

    Seth_L Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2002
    Messages:
    1,553
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Carl,

    Your intepretation is incorrect (as I understand it). Your copy is not illegal or a violation of copyright because it is another work of art. If you use mechanical aids or trace something, or what not then it is no longer considered a new work of art, but a reproduction.

    Seth
     
  14. Carl Miller

    Carl Miller Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,461
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
     

Share This Page