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Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker Discussion Thread (SPOILERS!)

Discussion in 'Movies' started by dpippel, Dec 19, 2019.

  1. Adam Lenhardt

    Adam Lenhardt Director

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    That's what would have made it interesting. What happens when the galaxy is ruled by a tyrant who isn't a strategic genius like Palpatine, but a myopic and often self-destructive young man who can't get out from the shadow of his family's legacy?

    It would have finally been something different than the Empire-lite that the First Order has been this entire trilogy.

    I don't actually have a problem with the reveal itself, especially if you subscribe to the theory that Palpatine used the Force to impregnate Shmi Skywalker. I just don't think we needed Palpatine physically present in this movie.

    The prophecy was announced in The Phantom Menace and was ultimately proven accurate; Anakin was the one who brought balance to the Force, by killing the (original) Emperor.
     
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  2. Edwin-S

    Edwin-S Lead Actor
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    I think one of the things that bothered me in TRoS was Rey being OP and literally training herself without guidance from any Jedi Master. And please do not bring up Leia as her mentor because Leia was not a Jedi Master. It actually makes the reveal of her having Palpatine blood creepy because it suggests that someone with the Emperor's blood is a natural that has better control over the Force than any Jedi and needs little guidance in learning how to master it.
     
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  3. Edwin-S

    Edwin-S Lead Actor
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    I guess watching a dissolute incompetent being taken down might be interesting to some people but I wouldn't have been one of them.

    I guess that would have been true had they stopped at six movies, but creating this last trilogy shows that any "balance' is just a temporary thing, so even though the prophecy comes true it inevitably becomes meaningless and so does his sacrifice. They probably should have stopped at six movies for a tidy end.
     
  4. Robert Crawford

    Robert Crawford Moderator
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    Rey called Leia “Master” in the film.
     
  5. Message #505 of 813 Dec 29, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2019
    Jake Lipson

    Jake Lipson Lead Actor

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    To me, I think it was far more interesting for her to be nobody who happens to be extraordinarily skilled with the Force than for her to be a relative of someone that we know. The Force Awakens implied that she had important lineage because she wanted to have important lineage, not because it was necessary that she did. Again, this is a personal preference thing, but I was fascinated by this idea in The Last Jedi. Because the Jedi aren't supposed to have personal attachments, that means that most of the Jedi Padawans in the prequels came from nowhere in particular, so it felt consistent with that for Rey to come from nowhere. Even Anakin came from nowhere, essentially (unless you believe the theory that Palpatine created him inside his mother, which I don't.)

    Then "Rey is nobody" shouldn't have been the answer that Johnson gave us. But it is what Johnson gave us. By virtue of being related to Palpatine, her parents are somebodies, so while I think Abrams and Terrio were trying to honor what Johnson did, they clearly went in the opposite direction. It felt like a situation where they wanted to have their cake and eat it too. In order for the films to work back-to-back as a cohesive whole experience, I think they needed to go with "Rey is nobody" and build from there, instead of pulling a switcheroo.

    I get what you're saying and I think this could have worked, potentially, if it were the plan from the beginning and was seeded into the whole trilogy. Instead, the twist came out of nowhere, and feels at odds with what Johnson established in The Last Jedi. We know that bringing back Palpatine was Abrams' idea because Colin Treverrow said that Palpatine was not in his drafts. If I were a betting man, I'd be willing to bet that the idea of Rey being a Palpatine did not come about until Abrams made the choice to bring Palpatine back. That is what I think makes it not work, because it was patched together at the end when they decided they needed a villain who wasn't Kylo Ren for this film.

    The reveal of Darth Vader being Luke's father in Empire does invalidate what Obi-Wan/Ben said in the original film, but the explanation for it in Return of the Jedi felt more natural than the rushed inserting of Palpatine into Rey's backstory here. I think that's because Lucas was the person on the original trilogy who was running things, even though the sequels had different directors. Abrams and Johnson are fundamentally different filmmakers in terms of their interests and styles, and Kennedy failed to bridge the gap in their visions.
     
  6. Wayne_j

    Wayne_j Producer

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    No matter what Lucas says I still see Anakin balancing the force during the imperial times, he evened the number of Jedi and Sith to two each.
     
  7. TravisR

    TravisR Studio Mogul

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    To be fair, neither is Luke by any traditional standard shown in the prequels. And if you don't want to acknowledge the prequels, neither is Obi-Wan in the original movie. The Jedi Order was wiped out so any prospective Jedi have to rely on anyone that has some ability and knowledge of the Force to teach them so the order can be rebuilt. That's what Luke did and it's what Rey did.
     
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  8. Josh Dial

    Josh Dial Producer

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    No, and I think you know that.

    I think that Johnson ineptly foisted incongruous traits upon both Finn and Poe as a substitute for actual character development. In effect, Johnson wasted an entire movie when he could have actually developed two characters. Abrams was left to scrounge what he could--and really all he was left with was mostly starting from where he left off.
     
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  9. Jake Lipson

    Jake Lipson Lead Actor

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    As Adam beat me to saying, that's exactly why it would have been interesting to see what happened with him in charge.

    But it would have been the Resistance fighting someone who is ill-equipped to lead, and with whom they have a personal connection. Luke didn't have a personal connection to Palpatine in Return of the Jedi. The familial relationship between Leia and Kylo Ren, with Rey caught in the middle, would have made the stakes different than they were in Return of the Jedi.
     
  10. Edwin-S

    Edwin-S Lead Actor
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    While Luke's training is not the formalized training that took place in The Old Republic, he still had a master who had combat experience, was knowledgeable about the ways of the Force and could provide light saber training. They may not have shown all that on screen but logically it could be occurring because Luke had Yoda as his trainer.

    Who does Rey have? Leia? That does not compute because Leia never showed any prowess with a light saber or with the Force up until Johnson decided to give her Force powers in TLJ. Now, I will give latitude that she could have gotten training in the Force through Leia, since it is possible that Leia may have pursued learning to use it during the intervening years from the end of the OT to the beginning of TFA. However, Rey is insanely skilled with a light saber and no one trained her in that use. Ostensibly, that is what part of her training from Luke should have been until it was cut short by him being a bitter old man, who had lost any respect or care for anyone or anything as witnessed by his rough handling of the sea cow, when he started pumping its breast for his shot of blue moo juice.
     
  11. Edwin-S

    Edwin-S Lead Actor
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    How could a Resistance fighting someone ill-equipped to lead ever be interesting to watch? A guy who is ill-equipped to lead would be easily crushed and defeated by any reasonably competent opposing force. Of course, since the Resistance of TLJ was incompetently led, I guess watching two incompetently led forces fight it out might have had some comedic value.

    Also, Leia and Rey were the only two Resistance fighters with a personal connection to Kylo Ren. Your theoretical film only works if Carrie Fisher hadn't passed so that the familial relationship could be carried on for the entirety of the third film. In any case, watching someone caught between feuding family members would not be interesting in the slightest in a STAR WARS movie.

    However, that worked very well in his other recent film, "Knives Out".
     
  12. Adam Lenhardt

    Adam Lenhardt Director

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    This is where we fundamentally disagree.

    At the end of The Force Awakens, Poe Dameron was tremendously talented and skilled but also reckless. Forcing him to mature seemed like a natural arc. I don't agree with all of the choices Johnson made in the execution of that arc, but the arc itself made sense. Likewise, Finn was pretty much a blank slate at the end of The Force Awakens. Rey and Poe were pretty much the only two people outside of the First Order that he knew. The mission that opened up TFA was his first deployment requiring lethal force, so his exposure to the galaxy as a whole was limited. It made sense to show him some of the realities beyond the conflict and let him decide for himself whether to commit to the Resistance.

    In both cases, the characters were set up in an interesting position for the final chapter. I wanted to see Poe as more of a tactical leader, and I wanted to see Finn as a Resistance soldier who'd committed with his eyes wide open. Instead, we got a buddy comedy. Poe ends up back in the cockpit, and Finn gets never previously hinted at Force sensitivity in lieu of a character arc. If this movie had built on what he'd learned during his jaunt with Rose, his interactions with Jannah and the other lapsed stormtroopers would have been a lot more interesting.
    Except that the Resistance had literally been wiped out to the point where its entirety could fit onboard the Millennium Falcon. Even without Palpatine's magical, out of nowhere armada of planet-destroying Star Destroyers, the First Order had overwhelming tactical advantages over the Resistance.
     
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  13. Jake Lipson

    Jake Lipson Lead Actor

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    I'm not sure I agree with that. Obviously, a version of the film where Carrie lived and was available for all of it would be the best way to go, but I think that they could have used some of the footage they used of her in this film to have her speaking to Ren instead of Rey. I'm not sure how that would have worked, and it would have been far from perfect, but I don't think it would have been impossible.

    They could also have used Force Ghost Luke as a surrogate to speak for Leia, which is an idea that I had several months ago. For example, just have Luke appear in Leia's stead with a message from her because she doesn't know how to be a Force ghost. Again, this would have been not the best, but functional.

    Because it would have demonstrated the Resistance attempting to undermine Kylo's attempts to lead, and this could have led to a power struggle within the First Order. One of my theories going in was that somehow General Hux would discover that Ren, not Rey, had murdered Snoke, and there would have been some sort of fallout from that. The closest we got to that actually happening was the reveal of Hux as the spy just because he doesn't like Ren, but I think they could have done more with that instead of killing him within minutes of that reveal.
     
  14. Edwin-S

    Edwin-S Lead Actor
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    That's my point. There was nowhere to go with the story after TLJ. It was over. The FO had won because the Resistance was effectively wiped out as a force. Johnson even made sure to make the FO victory total by ensuring that no one else showed up to fight by the Resistance's side. The rest of the galaxy signaled that the FO was the preeminent power.

    Rey continuing to train was pointless. In Johnson's STAR WARS world, all her and her companions could and should have done was go into hiding and hope no one found them if they wanted to continue living.
     
  15. Message #515 of 813 Dec 29, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2019
    Jake Lipson

    Jake Lipson Lead Actor

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    The Empire was the preeminent power throughout the entire original trilogy and that never stopped the Rebellion. Why should it have stopped the Resistance? Seeing what they do to fight against Kylo Ren in the face of near-impossible odds is what would have made it interesting.

    Plus, you're forgetting about the final scene with the kid with telling the story of Luke's victory and using the Force. There was a spark of hope in the Resistance's rebirth spreading, and The Rise of Skywalker essentially cast that aside and did nothing with it.
     
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  16. Greg.K

    Greg.K Cinematographer

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    Luke trained with Yoda for approximately the time it took for the Falcon to get to Cloud City. It couldn't have been all that long.

    Not only did Rey have Leia, who had had enough training to make her own lightsaber, for a longer period of time, but also the Jedi texts, and the raw power that came from being a descendant of Palpatine.
     
  17. Cameron Yee

    Cameron Yee Executive Producer
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    I also thought it odd that people viewed the Force lightning as a strictly Palpatine skill, whereas it's been established as more of a Sith, Dark Side manifestation (Dooku was able to do it in the prequels). So making Rey have a Force lightning emission and making that evidence of her connection to Papa Palpatine seemed ... Forced.
     
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  18. Message #518 of 813 Dec 30, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2019
    Tino

    Tino Executive Producer
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  19. AshJW

    AshJW Screenwriter

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    Obi-Wan didn’t lie. He told the truth from a certain point of view. ;)
    Same goes for Kylo. What he saw in his vision when he touched Rey was a fragment in that her parents seamed to be nobody. And that’s what he told Rey.


    She had no training with a light saber, but she was very skilled with her staff. And that shows in her fighting style. Very different from a regular jedi fighting style.
     
  20. TravisR

    TravisR Studio Mogul

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    Exactly. Just like her piloting ability, her skill with a lightsaber is built on something she's previously established. Once she begins to use the Force in conjunction with that skill, she's extremely good.
     
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