Star Wars: The Last Jedi discussion thread(Warning: Spoilers!)

Brett_B

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I moved this from the Solo thread since it relates more to The Last Jedi.

Then he'd have been reading books instead of stopping the First Order from rising and effectively destroying the government that the Republic had established & killing billions (?) in The Force Awakens. Given the way that TFA set the stage, Luke giving it up is the only thing that makes sense.
Travis,

How long has the First Order been in existence? Are you implying that the First Order rose after Kylo and the Knights of Ren slaughtered the rest of the Jedi trainees? Now, since Luke was basically the last Jedi in the universe what was it that he could have done to stop the first order from rising?

As far as giving up, are you saying that both Obi-wan and Yoda went in to seclusion to die? I always interpreted that as they were waiting for the right time to bring the battle back to the Empire and to destroy the Sith.
 

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I hope this isn't too convoluted.

Travis,

How long has the First Order been in existence?
As something that the average person in the SW galaxy knows about? I'd guess that it's only been a few years. The First Order started out as the remnants of the Empire after their final defeat at Jakku (which is why there's all the wrecked ships seen in TFA) about a year after Return Of The Jedi. The Imperials that escaped that battle hid in the Unknown Regions for decades as they rebuilt their strength. At some point, Snoke became the leader. He then used the darkness in Ben Solo to corrupt him which resulted in Luke pulling his saber on Ben (as seen in TLJ) leading to the destruction of the temple & the majority of its students and Luke's self-imposed exile.


Are you implying that the First Order rose after Kylo and the Knights of Ren slaughtered the rest of the Jedi trainees?
As a serious military threat, yes. Ben Solo became Kylo Ren about 5 years before TFA and TLJ. At that point, some in the Republic (like Leia) knew that the First Order was bad news and wanted to stop them before they were unable to be stopped but not enough that they could get the Republic to intercede. I'd equate it to the way that the U.S. viewed Nazi Germany in the 1930's- they knew they were building power and up to no good but they essentially chose to ignore the threat. Starkiller Base and the destruction of Hosnian Prime in TFA was the first time that the galaxy at large saw the serious threat that the First Order posed.


Now, since Luke was basically the last Jedi in the universe what was it that he could have done to stop the first order from rising?
He could have taken on Snoke before the First Order kept building their military power. Especially if Luke had had his students to provide back up.


As far as giving up, are you saying that both Obi-wan and Yoda went in to seclusion to die? I always interpreted that as they were waiting for the right time to bring the battle back to the Empire and to destroy the Sith.
No, not die. Obi-Wan and Yoda knew they couldn't defeat the Emperor and Vader themselves so they were both hoping that Luke or Leia would be able to stop them and they would be their teachers.
 

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So, I finally saw this film over the long weekend. We had guests staying with us all weekend and so they programmed what was shown in the home theater. On night one they showed a Harry Potter film, I think the third or fourth film in the series. This was in honor of the fact that one of the weekend activities was to attend a Harry Potter festival at a castle. I did not watch this as I sat outside by the fire and have zero interest in Harry Potter. On night two they showed The Last Jedi. On night three they chose to show Francis Ford Coppola's The Outsiders...which oddly, since there was a bunch of kids involved, was the film they were most excited about watching. It was the "Complete Novel" cut which I had never seen before so that was interesting.

So, with a group of Star Wars fans, some that did not care so much about it, and some like me that enjoyed the original films in the theater way back when...what did this audience think of The Last Jedi?

Well, the response was pretty underwhelming. The age range of this group ran from about 12 to mid 50s and nobody seemed very impressed with the film.

I can say this as a person that was part of the group that saw the original films in theaters, one thing that this group seems not to like at all about these new Star Wars films is how they treat the characters from that original series of films. Also there seems to be little connection with the newer characters...who are, I have to say, pretty dull.

For the young kids, teens and tweens, well...I think they see Star Wars as films for their parents and are not at all as engaged with it as their parents are/were. Let's face it the whole lure of these films seems mostly about older fans having nostalgia about the first three films. The middle films (which were the prequels) are nowhere near as loved and these new films seem to serve to bring back the actors in the roles they made famous just so they can kill them off in fairly poor ways and turn the whole Star Wars thing over to these new characters...who, in case people have not noticed, do not connect that well with either the older fans nor the younger generation. They don't connect for good reason...they are pretty dull and poorly written characters.

I can say this as well...Harry Potter, superhero, or the Twilight films have much more connection with teens and tweens than these Star Wars pictures do. They can talk to you and tell you all about Potter or Twilight but they seem to not give two hoots about Luke Skywalker or Han Solo...or Poe, Finn, or Rey either.

So, if these Star Wars films have declining numbers at the box office I think it is because the older fans don't like how the old characters were treated in them and can't connect with the new characters and the younger fans just don't care about these films or this universe as much as they do about Potter, Twilight, or superheroes.

For my part, I thought the whole production looked OK and the writing ranged from bland to dismal. Not a good film overall and not a film that I think will help boost the series of new Star Wars product.

I think the problem with these films is the older fans just can't go back to the thrills of the original trilogy and the younger audience just finds Star Wars a lot less interesting than a lot of other stuff that's out there.
 
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TravisR

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...and turn the whole Star Wars thing over to these new characters...who, in case people have not noticed, do not connect that well with either the older fans nor the younger generation.
In my experience, you're completely wrong about that. Those new characters have been embraced and are already beloved by the fanbase. When I saw The Force Awakens, I couldn't wait to see the original trilogy characters again but the new ones almost immediately won me over. I mean I'm not dressing up in a Finn costume (or any for that matter) but I can't wait to see what happens to the new characters in Episode IX. And as much as I love the old characters, I'm glad to some degree that they're gone because that will allow Star Wars to move forward with something new and avoid getting stuck in nostalgia or trying to capture the original trilogy again and again.

I'm assuming you've actually seen other movies with Adam Driver so what did you think of his performance in this movie?
 
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Reggie W

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In my experience, you're completely wrong about that. Those new characters have been embraced and are already beloved by the fanbase. When I saw The Force Awakens, I couldn't wait to see the original trilogy characters again but the new ones almost immediately won me over. I mean I'm not dressing up like Finn (or anyone else) but I can't wait to see what happens to the new characters in Episode IX. And as much as I love the old characters, I'm glad to some degree that they're gone because that will allow Star Wars to move forward with something new and avoid getting stuck in nostalgia or trying to capture the original trilogy again and again.

I'm assuming you've actually seen other movies with Adam Driver so what did you think of his performance in this movie?
I have seen Adam Driver in other films. I think he is alright in this. His character seems to be the best mapped out and he is both tragic and menacing at times. I think my favorite new character was by far Benicio Del Toro's DJ. Del Toro and Hamill were the most fun to watch in this. I find Rey and Finn very bland and poorly written but probably the biggest disappointment to me is Oscar Issac as Poe. Wow, I like Oscar and think he is an interesting actor but his Star Wars character is awful.

The lines they make him spew in Last Jedi are terrible. They appear to use Poe as the guy that tells the audience what everybody is doing. Every line they give him revolves around "OK, now the plan we will use is this, while the bad guys are doing that!"

I mean that's all his character is...basically he narrates what is happening...and done. That's terrible writing and a terrible use of a good actor.

I am just going by the group of people I watched it with over the weekend. Kids and adults in a wide age range. I was baffled that the film the kids could not stop talking about was The Outsiders. I thought we'd get a half hour in and they would ask to turn it off but they loved it.
 

Jake Lipson

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Having Darth Vader in the movie kicking ass in some flashback scenes of him
I'm not really sure how anything you're suggesting would have fit into the narrative that Rain Johnson was constructing at all. Extended flashbacks aren't really done in the saga films, and these would have felt particularly out of place in a story that is designed to push the characters forward.

If you want to see relatively new content involving Darth Vader kicking ass, might I suggest the Rogue One hallway scene?

Those new characters have been embraced and are already beloved by the fanbase. When I saw The Force Awakens, I couldn't wait to see the original trilogy characters again but the new ones almost immediately won me over.
One of the great things about The Force Awakens is that Abrams and Kasdan know the fans will want to see the original trilogy characters again as soon as possible, but it takes something like 40 minutes-ish for Han and Chewie, the first prior characters we see, to enter the film. This was a really smart idea because you get to know and be invested in the new characters first, which prevents Han and Chewie from upstaging them. But what was really interesting to me is how well it's pulled off. By the time that Han and Chewie do show up, I was of course excited to see them, but I was already so invested in Rey and Finn, etc. that I forgot I was waiting for Han and Chewie to show up.
 

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I have seen Adam Driver in other films. I think he is alright in this. His character seems to be the best mapped out and he is both tragic and menacing at times.
I think Driver and Hamill gave the best performances in the movie.

I think my favorite new character was by far Benicio Del Toro's DJ. Del Toro and Hamill were the most fun to watch in this.
I loved that character. Del Toro looks like he just came in with a crazy take on the character and Johnson just went with it because it was a cool weird move. It amused me that people hated the character so much. Fun fact: DJ stands for "Don't Join" and was lifted from a picture of the great Elvis Costello.

Clearly, I'm a Star Wars megafan so I'm biased but I loved this movie more than any SW since I was a little kid. The movie's themes of treating people right, that anyone can be a hero and that good can triumph is sorely needed in today's world. As a lifelong fan, Luke looking out at the sunset mirroring a similar moment in his life when he was on the precipice of a potentially great adventure is a wonderfully emotional movie moment for me. John Williams' score is damn perfect. And to be a dork, killing Snoke & the resulting lightsaber battle is literally the most exciting thing that I can remember seeing in a movie.



One of the great things about The Force Awakens is that Abrams and Kasdan know the fans will want to see the original trilogy characters again as soon as possible, but it takes something like 40 minutes-ish for Han and Chewie, the first prior characters we see, to enter the film. This was a really smart idea because you get to know and be invested in the new characters first, which prevents Han and Chewie from upstaging them. But what was really interesting to me is how well it's pulled off. By the time that Han and Chewie do show up, I was of course excited to see them, but I was already so invested in Rey and Finn, etc. that I forgot I was waiting for Han and Chewie to show up.
Yep. Say what you will about J.J. Abrams but he knows how to make you like the characters.
 

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I think Driver and Hamill gave the best performances in the movie.
I think Driver has the best role in these new films and the one whomever is writing this stuff seems to have paid the most attention to. Hamill is quite obviously a far better actor now than he was when he played Luke in the original trilogy. So, he gives his best performance in a Star Wars film for sure. If this does anything for him hopefully he gets cast in some other films as somebody other than Luke Skywalker because he seems quite capable of doing other things.

I loved that character. Del Toro looks like he just came in with a crazy take on the character and Johnson just went with it because it was a cool weird move. It amused me that people hated the character so much. Fun fact: DJ stands for "Don't Join" and was lifted from a picture of the great Elvis Costello.
I did not know people hated DJ. I've watched a couple of videos with people commenting on the picture, one from a super fan and the Half in the Bag review, since watching it. I think both videos did a good job spotting things that were "problems" with the picture...mostly I put it on the writing. The Force Awakens was better than this one, in my opinion, because I thought the writing in The Last Jedi was basically a disaster. I don't know if Rian Johnson really wrote this or if there was some large committee of people behind the writing (I tend to think the latter)...but wow, I'd fire everybody involved with that script. It stands with Prometheus as one of the worst examples of screenwriting I have seen. This is not really a comment about what the story did with Star Wars...it's just about the writing. Awful stuff in this case. I mean just concepts like Poe prank phone calls the Empire ship to distract them? Really? They recreate the OJ chase in space with the Empire ships following the Rebel ships through the universe until they run out of gas? Come on...you are spending millions of dollars on this film and the writing is this bad? Finn, Rey, and Poe are supposed to be your new central characters and they do basically nothing with them...nothing that makes any sort of sense nor helps the film. They could have cut their dialogue and gave each of them a t-shirt to wear...Finn's would say "Clown", Rey's would say "Sucker", and Poe's would say "Narrator."

My point here is not to run down the film but I get frustrated when they blow a whole bunch of money on these kind of films and don't even bother to get a decent script together. That's more than a little irritating to me.

Clearly, I'm a Star Wars megafan so I'm biased but I loved this movie more than any SW since I was a little kid. The movie's themes of treating people right, that anyone can be a hero and that good can triumph is sorely needed in today's world. As a lifelong fan, Luke looking out at the sunset mirroring a similar moment in his life when he was on the precipice of a potentially great adventure is a wonderfully emotional movie moment for me. John Williams' score is damn perfect. And to be a dork, killing Snoke & the resulting lightsaber battle is literally the most exciting thing that I can remember seeing in a movie.
Yes, I don't come at these films as either a hater of Star Wars nor as a super fan. I, like many people, saw Star Wars when it hit theaters in 1977. I was 10. So, I loved it and Empire Strikes Back but after that second film, for me anyway, the franchise had been in a downwards spiral until The Force Awakens...which I thought was the best Star Wars film since Empire.

So, when my wife and I were visiting friends at Christmas and we happened to sit down with some super fans of Star Wars and they told us that "The Last Jedi murdered the Star Wars franchise." I sort thought that was funny and a giant overstatement. However, my wife being a much bigger Star Wars fan than me (watch how angry she gets if she watches the Lucas altered original film) determined this conversation had put her off seeing The Last Jedi.

I obviously can't relate when super fans either hate or love these films. Some of the breakdowns of why people hate these go way too far into bizarre fictional gobbledygook about Midichlorians and whatever makes a Jedi or other such esoterica. I have no idea what all that is about. So, I just look at it from the standpoint of is it well made and well written. In the case of The Last Jedi, I would give failing scores on the writing, editing, and pacing. This seems to be another film where the people making it had no idea what they were doing or were so pressed by deadlines and time that they threw this together with little thought as to if it made any sense.

It certainly all looks pretty and some of the acting is good but on the whole...I'd rate this as a bad film. Not saying that it is bad as a Star Wars film because I honestly don't know what people want when it comes to Star Wars, it's just a big old sloppy mess as filmmaking in general. This does not mean it can't be fun, I think if what you want is a "Star Wars fix" then this will work...perhaps not for some super fans but some people enjoy it.

 
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The Autistic Asexual

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You know I've been thinking. I think that Rose has some sort of mental disorder. For instance she goes from wanting to punch everyone in the face on Canto Bight to not wanting to indulge in violence at all even though she almost kills Finn trying to save him on that red dust planet with her saying that Finn and her shouldn't kill what they hate instead they should save what they love or something along those dorky-ass lines. Talk about a throw-away character in a movie.
 
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Can someone tell me what in the living hell is wrong with Star Wars fans?

'Star Wars' Actress Kelly Marie Tran Leaves Social Media Following Months of Harassment


https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/h...leaves-social-media-months-harassment-1117260

I happen to think Rose was one of the best things about The Last Jedi, but even if you didn't, this kind of harassment is never called for. The same fans also drove Daisy Ridley from social media, George Lucas into retirement, and Hayden Christenson out of the business.

These people make me embarrassed to be a Star Wars fan.
 

Jake Lipson

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I happen to think Rose was one of the best things about The Last Jedi, but even if you didn't, this kind of harassment is never called for.
100% agreed. Had I known this kind of crap was being directed at her, I would have posted something positive for her. She was a highlight of the movie for me and I'm looking forward to seeing her again in Episode IX. Social media has made it easier than ever for fans to connect with stars, but a segment of the fandom thinks it's okay to abuse that connection and be hurtful, which sucks. I hope she knows that those haters do not represent the majority of the fans, but it would be really hard to face down that kind of hate.
 

TravisR

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Can someone tell me what in the living hell is wrong with Star Wars fans?
A team of psychiatrists couldn't do that.


These people make me embarrassed to be a Star Wars fan.
Same here.


If the subject of Star Wars is brought up and someone immediately gets mad & starts ranting about the prequels or Rian Johnson or Kathleen Kennedy or 'SJWs' or whatever is the current thing pissing off the unstable segment of the fanbase, they really need to rethink things. That's not to say that everyone who doesn't like those parts of Star Wars need help but when Star Wars is mentioned, a person's first thought should be something positive like "Oh man, I loved The Empire Strikes Back" or "I love the old days of Star Wars" and not "FUCK YOU, RUIN JOHNSON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" or "Hmmm, I better remember my daily Tweet that J.J. Abrams and Disney have ruined everything."
 

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I did not like TLJ but I can't imagine why anyone would take their frustrations out on one of the actors, who had absolutely nothing to do with the script or the direction of the film. Makes no sense at all.
 
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Jake Lipson

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I can't imagine why anyone would take their frustrations out on one of the actors
Because they can. And they're not being rational. They're just hating.

Haters gonna hate.

That's unfortunately all there is to it.
 
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RobertR

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I don't care for the Rose character at all (she struck me as something of an archetypical "feelings are everything" millennial), but the kind of harassment the actress has been subjected to is inappropriate and uncalled for. However, the notion that George Lucas retired and Hayden Christensen isn't acting due to "self absorbed psychopaths" is rather silly. It's not as if either of them were highly sought after outside of the Star Wars franchise, or that Lucas couldn't have simply decided he'd had enough of the business.
 
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Josh Steinberg

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I think Lucas stated in interviews that at least part of the motivation for selling Lucasfilm was that he was tired of the vitriol that came with making Star Wars movies. I don't agree with every creative choice that Lucas has ever made, but I've always respected the man himself and endeavor to have discussions about his work respectfully. But it's amazing how many people on the internet and in otherwise respectful publications have absolutely no compunction about saying things as extreme as "Lucas raped my childhood!" Not, "Lucas made a decision I don't agree with, so I'm going to choose to spend my money elsewhere" but "Lucas raped my childhood! I know more about his life's work than he does!" That's a pretty impossible situation to be in, and I don't blame him for wanting to move on with his life in the face of it.

Similarly, the abuse that Christensen has gotten has been far out of proportion to any "offense" he might have committed. He was hired to do a job and did what he was asked to the best of his abilities. You can argue that he wasn't the right person for the role, but he didn't cast himself, nor did he write the script, nor did he direct it. It's fair to say "I don't like him in the role" but that's not what he got. What he got were variations of "You ruined all of Star Wars forever and I hope you die." I mean, how is that in any way proportional?

I think Star Wars fandom has actually been broken for quite some time. It may be getting worse since the special edition era and the prequel era now that we have social media, but I think this has been a significant problem for some time. I mean, there's an entire internet subculture devoted to the creation and sharing of homemade versions of Star Wars, which strikes me as incredibly problematic. I don't understand the mindset of a person who instead of saying, "I don't like this movie", says, "I'm going to take this movie and fix it and make my version available for everyone to watch instead, because the people who made the movies don't actually know anything about them!"
 
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Can someone tell me what in the living hell is wrong with Star Wars fans?
It comes from the top. Why should we expect people to be decent, loving and kind? Where they should learn it from? (All rhetorical questions of course :))

Also about Hayden Christensen. I don't think we can blame fans for him not getting roles. Maybe, just maybe he is not getting big roles because he is not a good actor?
 

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The creative decisions made by Lucas starting in 1997 opened up an irretrievably deep fissure in Star Wars fandom. One faction was going to stand by him and his decisions no matter what, and the other wasn't. The "Lucas raped my childhood" line is often used to characterize those on one side of the fissure, but there are no statistics on what percentage of Lucas critics actually said it or something like "I hope you die" (as opposed to engaging in strong, even fierce criticism of his decisions, which is not the same thing). People were and are free to express such criticism without being lumped in with those who make extreme statements. Lucas was likely irked by the criticism in general, not just the extreme statements. If he wanted to retire because everything he did wasn't universally loved, so be it.

As for homemade versions of Star Wars, I don't view that as problematic at all. It's simply the consequence of access to better technology. No one was saying it was problematic, for example, when people were writing fan fiction about Star Trek and expressing their ideas about how they wanted to portray the characters. I for one am extremely glad that so many have worked so hard to make available the original versions of the OT. That's a good thing.

about Hayden Christensen. I don't think we can blame fans for him not getting roles. Maybe, just maybe he is not getting big roles because he is not a good actor?
That's likely it. He probably received an unusual amount of criticism for his Star Wars portrayal because of the high visibility of the role, but at the same time, I doubt there would be many expressions of sympathy for him if his career had crashed and burned after roles in much more obscure films.
 
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Josh Steinberg

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If we’re going to talk about actors negatively impacted by Star Wars - poor Jake Lloyd. He got to go shoot a Star Wars movie, which must be fun especially if you’re a kid - and then got made fun of, bullied and socially ostracized from his peers when he went back to school afterwards. It’s ok if people didn’t like him in the movie but it’s not ok that his classmates beat him up for it.
 

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