Star Wars: The Last Jedi discussion thread(Warning: Spoilers!) (1 Viewer)

[Jake Lipson]

for him to suddenly start telling Rey or Kylo Ren a bunch backstory about how he's secretly Ezra Bridger would have felt like exposition and the movie would have ground to a halt just so they could answer a question that only big fans really care about.

I totally agree with that, also. Pushing Kylo Ren to the center villain position for Episode IX is uncharted territory, and I'm glad they did that. The backstory is secondary to pushing characters forward.

I suspect Kylo Ren might know more than we do about Snoke -- probably not a full origin story, but something. And his backstory isn't as important to Rey as defeating him.

Also, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi have absolutely no backstory for the Emperor in them, and no one got mad when Vader killed him without an explanation into his origins either. It's easy to forget, but all of the information we know about him and his motivations -- even the name Palpatine -- came directly from the prequels, which were more about his scheme. In the original trilogy, he functions the same way as Snoke does here: an evil asshole who serves to push the characters we actually care about into motion, and that's it.

I don't even think Snoke's story necessarily has to be told in a movie. Somebody can go write "The Supreme Leader Snoke Story" as a spinoff book the same way that Tarkin got a spinoff book last year. The fans who want it can make it a bestseller, while the movies are concerned with pushing the story forward. Doing it in a novel format would also give them the freedom of including younger versions of Luke, Leia and Han watching as Snoke seduces Ben, which they couldn't do in The Force Awakens because they had to account for the cast being 30 years older than the last time they played these characters in Return of the Jedi.

 

[Tino]

Well I’ve seen The Last Jedi three times now. And had time to reflect.

And I clearly prefer TFA over TLJ. JJ did a better job in every aspect. But I still loved TLJ. Rian did a great job. JJ is just a better filmmaker and storyteller imo.

I think the difference is the whole Canto Bright Casino/Benecio scenes. They just take me out of the film and stop it cold.

Can’t wait to see what JJ does with episode IX. I’m sure it will be great.

 

[Tommy R]

Okay, I'll agree that Rian wasn't in a story telling position to explain Snoke in Part 2 of this trilogy, but to that I'll say perhaps something could've been said in TFA. I'm not saying any convoluted backstory that feels out of place to the flow of that film, but I think a quick something could've been said at some point. Even something simple like "When Snoke formed the First Order 10 years after the Empire fell..." or some such thing, just to give us a LITTLE orientation. I think all we got in the opening crawl was something about the first order "rising from the ashes of the Empire", and I remember the whole Snoke/First Order thing made me feel a little "Wait, what is all this...?" when I first saw TFA. Not the biggest deal criticism wise, and I'm sure it was J.J.'s desired effect, just a little note I'd give the film that I would prefer a tad more. It's been quite a while now since the time before the prequels, but I do remember being a kid and wondering who the heck the Emperor was.

 

[Carabimero]

The difference in the death of the Emperor and in Snoke, IMO, is the Emperor died in the climax of the trilogy and Snoke died in the middle movie. Very deliberate by Johnson to keep with Luke's warning that "This isn't going to go the way you think" but it flies in the face of the entire history of Star Wars where things repeat in patterns.

I wish Johnson had waited for his own trilogy to break the pattern, and not just with Snoke. This is still the Skywalker saga for one more episode. While I appreciate that Johnson reacted against the Star Wars tropes--and even like that he did so--IMHO he did it too much, seemingly at every opportunity. At times I felt like my face was rubbed in it, that he did it just for the sake of doing it.

 

[dpippel]

It's worth noting that there's no friction in space, so an object in motion stays in motion. It would have taken a relatively small push to point Leia in the right direction, and then inertia would have done the rest.[/QUOTE]

Very little of what happens in space during a Star Wars film conforms to real physics, so I wouldn't lean too heavily on that explanation.

 

[Jake Lipson]

but it flies in the face of the entire history of Star Wars where things repeat in patterns.

Are you saying you would prefer a scenario in which Ben kills Snoke in the third installment as he is successfully turned back to the light at the very end by Rey? Wouldn't people complain that that is a remake of Return of the Jedi?

This is still the Skywalker saga for one more episode.

With Luke dead and Leia not returning either due to Carrie Fisher's unfortunate passing, Kylo Ren/Ben will be the only Skywalker left in Episode IX. I think that this film, and particular Rey's parentage reveal, is about widening the story specifically so that it doesn't all revolve around the Skywalkers, and I'm okay with that. Finn and Poe aren't connected to them either. Just actually, dispatching Snoke in this way brings Ben Solo, the last Skywalker, forward as the main antagonist for the final film. If he dies, that is the total end of the Skywalker bloodline.

 

[Carabimero]

Are you saying you would prefer a scenario in which Ben kills Snoke in the third installment as he is successfully turned back to the light at the very end by Rey? Wouldn't people complain that that is a remake of Return of the Jedi?

No, I'm just re-enforcing my strong belief that there was never a plan. They're making it up as they go. And IMO the films--and the fans--are suffering for it.

 

[dpippel]

I am fairly shocked that anyone missed this. They focused very clearly on his finger NOT pushing the button.

Not only that, but he ended up offing both of the First Order pilots who DID fire on the cruiser's bridge.

 

[Jake Lipson]

They're making it up as they go.

This is not a secret. Abrams said this on TFA that he was only focused on that movie. Johnson said that he was not given an outline and was free to continue the story as he saw fit. They never said there was a "plan." And Johnson is not involved in Episode IX at all, so now Abrams picks up from this and does what he wants to finish it.

On the other hand, Johnson is saying that he is planning out his entire trilogy now, so we'll see how that approach works soon enough.

 

[Wayne_j]

I blame Kathy Kennedy and/or the Lucasfilm Story Group for not having a plan. J.J. and Rian definitely seem like they weren't on the same page. Lucasfilm should have made sure that everybody was on the same page either requiring J.J. to have a treatment for the entire trilogy or coming up with one themselves.

 

[Jake Lipson]

Lucasfilm should have made sure that everybody was on the same page either requiring J.J. to have a treatment for the entire trilogy or coming up with one themselves.

I disagree. If Johnson had to stick to Abrams' plan, Abrams might as well have directed it. If they're going to bring in different filmmakers in the writing and direction of these films, those filmmakers have to be allowed some measure of control over the storytelling. Granted, I loved The Last Jedi and I'm really excited by all of the risks that Johnson took in it. I loved The Force Awakens, too, but I think the filmmaker-driven approach is working here.

By its nature, Rogue One was much more prescriptive in what that had to be, because it had to fit exactly into A New Hope, and it was a less interesting film, with less room for character development or surprises, precisely because it needed to color within the lines of a plan.

I'm glad we got this result on The Last Jedi because I thought it was terrific.

 

[Sam Posten]

So 12 pages in and nobody but me caught the Hardware Wars reference??? I was shouting it in my theater, nobody else knew what I was talking about.
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12/16/rian-johnson-huge-dork-reference-star-wars-last-jedi-proves/

You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll toss six bucks goodbye!

 

[WillG]

As I said earlier, it's a weird movie because it feels more like the end of a trilogy, not the middle...

Maybe it's a little soon to speculate, but since you sort of indirectly brought it up. Where do we think this all ends? The conventional wisdom would suggest that the resistance beats the First Order, Rey turns Kylo and subsequently Klyo makes some grand, noble sacrifice to save Rey and the resistance. But I find myself thinking that maybe this time around like I don't want to see the resistance win. Mainly because as we're leaving things in TLJ, there's no real hope that they could actually win. Also it would be exactly the same as the OT. And also since a new trilogy has already been announced, not everything has to be wrapped up.

 

[Jake Lipson]

Since a new trilogy has already been announced, not everything has to be wrapped up.

But the new trilogy is not starting with Episode X. Johnson's series, if that is what you are referring to, is going to be new characters and a new story that extends the series beyond the Skywalker saga. It sounds like it will be the kind of standalone thing that the "Star Wars Story" spinoffs were announced as, but have yet to actually become. Rogue One and Young Han Solo are both adjacent to A New Hope, so they're not really standalone stories at all. If Johnson's trilogy really is going to be something completely different, then yes, Episode IX has to wrap things up for these characters and this saga.

As far as Episode IX is concerned, I don't think anybody wants to see the Resistance lose. But that doesn't mean that there isn't room for the ending to be achieved in a different way than before. One of the reasons that I like The Last Jedi so much is because I legitimately don't have any idea what is going to happen next. That's what makes it so exciting.

 

[Tino]

The new trilogy will have nothing to do with this current trilogy per Rian Johnson.

 

[DaveF]

A question about Holdo's warp-jump kamikaze: Did she strike during the jump entrance or jump exit (of an essentially zero-distance jump)?

I was talking with a friend this evening about it. I must have missed a detail when I watched Friday. He'd seen it a second time this morning and had a different understanding.

 

[Greg.K]

So 12 pages in and nobody but me caught the Hardware Wars reference??? I was shouting it in my theater, nobody else knew what I was talking about.
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12/16/rian-johnson-huge-dork-reference-star-wars-last-jedi-proves/

You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll toss six bucks goodbye!

Hah, I was totally thinking of Hardware Wars with that bit. Glad to see it was intentional.

Ok, I saw it again today with my son (his first time). I don't know exactly why, but I enjoyed it immensely more on the second viewing. I think it's probably because I wasn't as distracted by trying to follow the fakeout plot devices (the mutiny, & the need to disable the tracker especially) and just followed the character development, of which there is tons.

Snoke: His hubris did him in. It parallels Luke's observation that the hubris of the Jedi led to their downfall. Guess that cuts both ways.

Canto Bight/codebreaker plotline worked better for me this time as it was all about developing Finn's character from a guy still ready to cut & run at the beginning to someone finally realizing that he needed to commit to the good guys (and ultimately ready to make the ultimate sacrifice when attacking the big doorbuster gun). The codebreaker also ultimately served to get Finn face to face with Phasma again. Phasma mainly served in both TFA and TLJ as Finn's antagonist, and her purpose in the story was served by having Finn finally face and defeat her.

The mutiny plotline worked better for me this time with the understanding that it's really all about Poe's character growth. He makes a lot of mistakes with big consequences by defying leadership and thinking he knows more than they do, and we mostly see this from his perspective early on. Admiral Holdo had to be a new character to us (and Poe) so that we could see things from his point of view with no preconceptions. It's only when Poe learns how wrong he was that he is able to grow as a leader. As Yoda points out to Luke, making and learning from mistakes is an important part of it.

A couple other observations this time:

- My son pointed out that during Luke's force projection that he wasn't leaving footprints in the salt. Nice bit of detail.

- I think Holdo's kamikaze flight into Snoke's ship has to be the most visually stunning scene in any Star Wars movie, period. I could watch it over and over.

- Luke's viewing of double sunsets as he's dying - a vision of Tatooine as Ahch-to (gesundheit!) doesn't have two suns.

- My favorite Porg bit - when one is jumping on the lightsaber button as another stands unknowingly about to be skewered. Heard a few "uhohs" and gasps from the audience both viewings.

- I still think those bombers are dumb. How do you "drop" bombs - in space? There is no down! Or gravity! Leia floating in space shows that... And yeah, let's fly these big explody boxy ships all in tight formation so they're easier for the bad guys to take out all at once. I know the dogfights in Star Wars were originally based on WW2 fighters (at least movie versions of them) but this seems to be taking the WW2 analogies to extremes.

 

[Greg.K]

A question about Holdo's warp-jump kamikaze: Did she strike during the jump entrance or jump exit (of an essentially zero-distance jump)?

I was talking with a friend this evening about it. I must have missed a detail when I watched Friday. He'd seen it a second time this morning and had a different understanding.

My interpretation is that it was while jumping into hyperspace, turning the ship into a massive kinetic weapon.

 

[Carabimero]

I disagree. If Johnson had to stick to Abrams' plan, Abrams might as well have directed it. If they're going to bring in different filmmakers in the writing and direction of these films, those filmmakers have to be allowed some measure of control over the storytelling.

Yes, but if they had spent two years "immersing" themselves, Abrams plan might have changed so that the movies connected more organically. Planning might have also eliminated so many behind-the-scenes problems. We'll never know. Unfortunately.

On the other hand, if they had waited for two years, Carrie Fisher might be sadly absent from both episode 8 and 9.

 

[Jake Lipson]

Yes, but if they had spent two years "immersing" themselves

When were they supposed to do that? When Disney acquired Lucasfilm in 2012, before any filmmakers were hired at all, the very first thing they did was announce Episode VII for 2015, and the insistence on that date came from Bob Iger himself. The original intention was to have it in May like the previous six films. Abrams wanted it pushed to 2016 to give them more time, and Kennedy backed him, but Iger refused. December was the compromise that they came to in order to allow Disney to live up to its announcement to shareholders that they would deliver a new film in 2015.

So, it's amazing that we've had the amount of quality that we have given the timing pressure they've been under. I also suspect that Disney/Iger is the one dictating an every-other-year timetable for the saga films, and once again, pushing Episode IX to December was as far as Abrams was able to get him to go (although I personally wouldn't mind if it was 2020.)

They simply weren't given any more time by Iger, who was understandably eager for Disney to start recouping their $4 billion investment.