Star Wars: The Acolyte (Disney+) (1 Viewer)

[Citizen87645]

Thanks for shedding light on what seemed pretty unlikely. My first thought was those guys give a sh"t?

 

[Simon Massey]

The flashback structure allows the writers to leave everything in the middle of the story (i.e. development) out. It's a technique lesser writers use; it gets them off the hook for actually developing characters

Is this a dig at The Acolyte or all films that employ a flashback structure because that’s quite a generalisation. Guess your not a Nolan fan then

While specifically for the The Acolyte I’d argue that the first flashback was focused on developing Osha and Mae’s characters rather than Sol and the Jedi and therefore came at the right time after setting up the central characters in the first two. Whether it worked for that is up for debate I suppose but I enjoyed it more than most it seems.

And the best lightsaber fights in Star Wars are never for me about the physical consequences but the internal and emotional state of the characters. That’s why the original ones especially Empire are often cited as the best - The Phantom Menace was probably the one often brought up as technically one of the best but was largely spectacle over substance. I personally loved the ones in the final episodes of Obi Wan Kenobi for example. The ones in Ahsoka also worked for me because of what I know of Ashoka’s character and what she has been through prior to the series. Perhaps relying on previous series is to the detriment of the show but it worked for me.

 

[Citizen87645]

And the best lightsaber fights in Star Wars are never for me about the physical consequences but the internal and emotional state of the characters. That’s why the original ones especially Empire are often cited as the best - The Phantom Menace was probably the one often brought up as technically one of the best but was largely spectacle over substance. I personally loved the ones in the final episodes of Obi Wan Kenobi for example

This is true of the most esteemed martial arts films – the emotional context of the fight. The same is true of dance numbers in old Hollywood musicals. The ones that really resonate are those that have emotional underpinnings that give more substance to the physicality. As impressive as the physicality can be on its own, it really does need the emotion and character components to take it to the next level.

 

[Simon Massey]

(if the Force could heal, Anakin would have used it to heal Padme

He was slightly preoccupied at the time

And if the Jedi can run at the speed of light at the start of the film why can’t Obi Wan reach Qui Gonn in time to save him ? Why can’t R2 fly in the originals ? Why can’t Mace Windu fly like Anakin into a waiting taxi ? Why can’t… ? The list is pretty long even before Disney

As someone mentioned earlier I recall the absolute vitriol poured on Lucas and anyone who suggested the prequels were enjoyable if not as good as the originals. (I can’t believe I saw The Phantom Menace 16 times in 1999!!!) It’s weird seeing them being used as justification for what’s going on now. I would not be surprised to see this recent era being praised in 20 years time given what’s happened with the prequels.

The truth is a lot of us are heartbroken to see what has become of it being run by a corporation that doesn’t understand its core principles or the source material

Really ? What are these core principles being misunderstood? I’m as big a Star Wars fan as any but out of the whole saga there are only really two out and out classics (ok three but then I love The Last Jedi )

 

[Museum Pieces]

I can't believe I have to say this but that's not really Christensen, McGregor and Neeson. It's a Tic Tok from another in a string of grifters who have figured out that exploiting SW fans' endless hatred is a good way to make money and get internet famous.

Yes I found that out from my brother-in-law Carab, who has been ribbing me about it all day.

I don't have endless hatred for Star Wars. I have detailed specifically why I think it's fundamentally weaker post-Lucas, and despite my gaffe with the videos (apparently I am not the only one fooled), I stand behind what I wrote above, with one exception.

I discovered I was wrong about something else I wrote. Carab never tells me exactly what it is but rather he asks me a question. Apparently that's what the master does with the apprentice. He asked me, "If the discovery of why Master Sol was hesitant to draw his light saber is a character is revelation, as you said in the forum, exactly what character has the revelation?"

It made me realize no character has the revelation. Which is even worse.

Carab got me a job analyzing scripts for a popular streaming service, and among the many things I have learned is hierarchy for character. First is character development (what we call "range of change"); next is character revelation, and third is audience revelation. Better writing has the first two; lesser writing has the third.

Most of the characters in The Acolyte know what happened 16 years ago. Only the audience is left out. So when we discover why Sol might be hesitant to use his light saber, it is not a character revelation, since he already knows what happened.

It's an audience revelation. The distinction might seem semantic but it is crucial. A character revelation means that Darth Vader tells Luke that he's his father, and we discover it with Luke. It's powerful because we share the moment with Luke, a moment that leads to character change, arguably in both of them.

Now imagine it another way: Luke already knows Vader is his father, but we, the audience, do not, and we find out in a flashback. It won't be nearly as powerful because we're the only ones left out of the truth. Everybody else knows. We don't discover it through Luke, so there's no drama. There's no character revelation or subsequent character development. It's just an audience revelation.

It's very easy to do. You start with a basic range of change. Sol draws his light saber at the beginning. Sixteen years later, he is more hesitant because of what happened. That's good as far as it goes. But when you use a flashback to just jump from one end of Sol's range to the other, you conveniently leave out the middle in the drama of that moment. It's really not convenient for anybody but the writer, which means we are left with Sol's development (if any) for episode 8. Probably too little too late.

The difference between an audience revelation and a character revelation matters. If that script came through where I work, one of my jobs would be to make sure I call attention to it so it can be revised and made more powerful, either by the writer or by another writer brought in. It's hard. I would have been wrong about how I classified it, but not wrong that it needed strengthening.

So it's not a hatred of Star Wars. It's a passionate reaction against the cheapening of the talent at the fundamental level of the writing. I was very clear and rational breaking down other post-Lucas differences as well, and I stand by them.

Now if I can only get Carab to stop ribbing me about the videos.

Edit: Simon Massey: Yes I grant you that Anakin was busy and actually was never around Padme after that, but it would have been the first thing Ob-Wan did after bringing her back, using the Force to heal her.

But Lucas has talent and a very good sensibility about the limits of power. He knows that's ascribing way too much power to the Force. So when Disney makes Rey pull back a ship with The Force, or Vader pulls back a ship, it kicks the stand out from under what's come before. I mean, why didn't Vader just do that earlier and pull back the Tantive?

So it changes all the power levels, and not for the better. It might be an awesome moment on screen, but the franchise pays dearly for it in the long run. It cheapens the credibility of the interest and suspense. If Rey can pull back a ship with her hand, why does she ever bother fighting a squad of storm troopers with a blaster? If she does use a blaster, it becomes incredible; if she doesn't, it's no longer drama. These may seem like small things I am pointing out but they fundamentally lessen the power of the drama in Star Wars.

I'm not being hateful. I'm just pointing out some of the fundamental reasons you don't see Star Wars in the theater much anymore, and why Disney+ is losing billions.

Edit Part two: I saw someone correctly pointed out with respect to light saber fights that it's what's going on in the characters minds while they fight that matters, not the outcome of the fight. I agree. But when the outcome of the fight is nearly always a draw, there's eventually a big problem. It's the difference between drama and melodrama. One of the reasons Empire is arguably the greatest Star Wars movie ever made is because it mixes drama and melodrama. When you have two characters talking about life and their relationships, something Empire does superbly, that's drama. When you have two people fighting with laser swords, that's melodrama, which is a cut below drama.

The first thing I learned when reading an action script was to remember that two people fighting on top of a speeding train, for example, can just be plain fun to watch, and there's a value to that. But the story comes to a screeching stop until we find out who wins the fight.

When both characters simply sheath their swords and walk away, then we've come not to a screeching stop but to a dead stop. If the fight itself doesn't matter, then save the power of the light sabers for when it does. Write drama--what happens in the space between two people--not melodrama, what happens when they fight with laser swords. Lucas knew when to do which, and opted to keep light sabers off unless the shit was going to hit the fan. Usually about once every movie, occasionally twice. And there were years between those movies, not a week between 30-minute slices where they use swords more times than not. Which adds up to way too much. In my opinion the Acolyte is the only Disney+ live-action show that has light saber fights that actually matter. Episode five was something else. So creative with the helmet that can short-circuit blades for a moment, making good use of source material. More of that please. Ahsoka, from my perspective, was the worst. It got away with too many pointless fights it because it was Anakin or Darth Vader usually holding the laser sword.

So again, I'm not coming form a position of hate. These are just other ways Disney has cheapened the franchise. Mark Hamill said it best (paraphrasing): They no longer care about telling a great story. They just want to ring a lot of bells and blow a lot of whistles and make a lot of money.

That worked for a few movies. But now all those bells and whistles are losing them millions if not billions.

 

[Simon Massey]

Edit: Simon Massey: Yes I grant you that Anakin was busy and actually was never around Padme after that, but it would have been the first thing Ob-Wan did after bringing her back, using the Force to heal her.

Unlikely given he let Qui Gonn die in his arms. Whilst I don’t like the Force healing thing myself (and regard Rise of Skywalker to be probably worse than any other SW film or movie BTW) it’s arguable that given the monastic/rigid Jedi teachings/code in the prequels that suggest letting go / accepting death etc they wouldn’t interfere in that way with people near death whereas Rey ( & Luke ?? ) took a less rigid route towards the Force that meant they sometimes broke rules / failed / reacted differently with anger / power etc, but never to Anakin’s extent as they had greater experience with dealing with emotions instead of keeping them in check. Isn’t healing/saving something from death the path to the Dark Side ?

As to Vader and Rey holding ships with the Force yes that was also too much for me (though I guess Yoda did it in Empire so that’s ok )

Mark Hamill said it best (paraphrasing): They no longer care about telling a great story. They just want to ring a lot of bells and blow a lot of whistles and make a lot of money.

Did he ? Not saying he didn’t just surprised - Hamill is very good at maintaining a middle ground that rarely lets people jump on something he said to make a point about the direction of SW and often undercuts himself with a joke or a smile so people don’t take it too seriously. I’ve seen so many comments from Hamill used that are taken out of context to “prove” something

 

[Simon Massey]

Most of the characters in The Acolyte know what happened 16 years ago. Only the audience is left out. So when we discover why Sol might be hesitant to use his light saber, it is not a character revelation, since he already knows what happened.

not suggesting The Acolyte is perfect but I’ll go out on a limb and say the whole flashback in Episode 7 is Sol talking to Mae and is therefore a revelation to Mae as well as the audience - not necessarily specific acts she witnessed but the context of those acts. It may well be that the context of Mae‘s actions are being revealed to Sol at the same time. Going forward their relationship is likely to be different now.

 

[Museum Pieces]

Unlikely given he let Qui Gonn die in his arms. Whilst I don’t like the Force healing thing myself (and regard Rise of Skywalker to be probably worse than any other SW film or movie BTW) it’s arguable that given the monastic/rigid Jedi teachings/code in the prequels that suggest letting go / accepting death etc they wouldn’t interfere in that way with people near death whereas Rey ( & Luke ?? ) took a less rigid route towards the Force that meant they sometimes broke rules / failed / reacted differently with anger / power etc, but never to Anakin’s extent as they had greater experience with dealing with emotions instead of keeping them in check. Isn’t healing/saving something from death the path to the Dark Side ?

As to Vader and Rey holding ships with the Force yes that was also too much for me (though I guess Yoda did it in Empire so that’s ok )



Did he ? Not saying he didn’t just surprised - Hamill is very good at maintaining a middle ground that rarely lets people jump on something he said to make a point about the direction of SW and often undercuts himself with a joke or a smile so people don’t take it too seriously. I’ve seen so many comments from Hamill used that are taken out of context to “prove” something

Yes it's a video and after he said it he came out a week later and said he was wrong so not to be guilty of his non-disparagement clause, and then came out and said Disney did not put the screws to him to make him say it. He had passion when he said it and was very logical and passionless when he took it back, so everyone judge for themselves.

This isn't the interview I was specifically talking about, but it will do to substantiate my claim.

Google Search

www.google.com

not suggesting The Acolyte is perfect but I’ll go out on a limb and say the whole flashback in Episode 7 is Sol talking to Mae and is therefore a revelation to Mae as well as the audience - not necessarily specific acts she witnessed but the context of those acts. It may well be that the context of Mae‘s actions are being revealed to Sol at the same time. Going forward their relationship is likely to be different now.

Thank you for saying that. You might be right, but the storyteller device was not explicitly used, by that I mean, you don't get Sol as the narrator telling events to Mae, so there's no way to get the interpersonal resonance of a connection between the two transformed by the story being told. That's the essence of the storyteller device. I am not sure about your last sentence since they did not experience the revelation like the audience did. It's like we were just there to see the events of 16 years earlier as a fly on the wall.

A word in Disney's defense. It's easy for Lucas to proclaim Jedi never attack, or something like that. He only produced limited hours. Jedi not attacking is a hard enough standard to maintain when you do six movies, plus he had Anakin to play with as the exception. Disney is looking at hundreds of hours of product while facing the same strictures. So I understand Star Wars has to change or die. It's just maddening when history proves if scripts pay more attention to interpersonal relationships in developmental ways, the screen product produced from them almost always gets more complete views and binges. That's what it's about these days. Using some kind of super Force, and clashing light saber blades every nineteen minutes, is only going to get them so far.

The streaming service I work for cares about good writing or they wouldn't pay to maintain my job position. They spend money to get good writing--and it shows. They'll survive even as the streaming model evolves and dies, because their foundation is steeped in caring about and respecting good writing. They can take their product anywhere.

As far as The Acolyte, we'll see what they do with episode eight. I expect Sol to have his moral self-revelation and new moral action, which I imagine will require him to die. But who knows? Not having any idea where episode eight is going is not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[Simon Massey]

You might be right, but the storyteller device was not explicitly used, by that I mean, you don't get Sol as the narrator telling events to Mae, so there's no way to get the interpersonal resonance of a connection between the two transformed by the story being told

Using a narrator would have been far worse - episode 6 clearly ends with a “we need to talk” scene.

And all studios etc are only in it to make money - i don’t think Filoni, Headland, Chow or any of the creators of these shows don’t want their stories to resonate etc. Critique their work fair enough but this constant focus on - it’s Disneys fault or they don’t understand the source material is part of the problem - the acolyte is a three star series in my book. I’ve enjoyed it and it has had some highs and lows but it’s certainly not the nadir of filmmaking that some are making it out to be. I’ll leave it at that and wait for the last episode

 

[Museum Pieces]

Using a narrator would have been far worse - episode 6 clearly ends with a “we need to talk” scene.

And all studios etc are only in it to make money - i don’t think Filoni, Headland, Chow or any of the creators of these shows don’t want their stories to resonate etc. Critique their work fair enough but this constant focus on - it’s Disneys fault or they don’t understand the source material is part of the problem - the acolyte is a three star series in my book. I’ve enjoyed it and it has had some highs and lows but it’s certainly not the nadir of filmmaking that some are making it out to be. I’ll leave it at that and wait for the last episode

I agree with you that all studios want to make money, but all studios don't care about making a great product if they can make money cheaper.

For example, when the Infinity Saga was being shot, they put money away ahead of time for rewrites and re-shoots on nearly every picture. They tested moves rigorously and bolstered weak spots. The goal was to make great movies. By and large they succeeded like the history of cinema had never seen. Nowadays, that culture has changed, and the recent movies show it.

I’ll leave it at that and wait for the last episode of The Acolyte.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

The key beats played out more or less as I expected them to, but there were a few surprises:

Spoiler: 1x08 - The Acolyte

• The reveal about the red lightsabers was interesting, if a bit of a head scratcher. I had assumed that red was just one among many different crystals available for use when constructing lightsabers and, for whatever reason, only the bad guys ever used the red ones. But clearly there's more to it than that, a deeper connection between red lightsabers and the dark side.
• I'm assuming the creepy guy in the cave watching Qimir and Osha is the actual Sith Lord, since he had the yellow eyes. Qimir might be connected to him or he might not be, but either way Qimir might not be Osha's last master.
• Always nice to see David Harewood. His character basically predicted the plot of Revenge of the Sith a century later.
• I'm fascinated by Rebecca Henderson's Master Vernestra Rwoh. I don't know that we've ever seen a Jedi politician before. She is acting to protect the institution of the Jedi Order in ways that undermine the integrity of the Jedi Order. And she's also covering her own ass a bit, since her wayward padawan is at the center of this whole mess. I did appreciate that she was smart enough when she met with Mae not to make the same mistake that Sol did with Osha. Even as she actively misled the Senate, she was open and honest with Mae and didn't hold back the unpleasant details.
• So much for not including Yoda in this series...

 

[NeilO]

Interesting finale. I was also surprised by those elements.

I wonder if we will learn more about what happened to Qimir in the first place and what happens after this series.

 

[Greg.K]

The key beats played out more or less as I expected them to, but there were a few surprises:

Spoiler: 1x08 - The Acolyte

• The reveal about the red lightsabers was interesting, if a bit of a head scratcher. I had assumed that red was just one among many different crystals available for use when constructing lightsabers and, for whatever reason, only the bad guys ever used the red ones. But clearly there's more to it than that, a deeper connection between red lightsabers and the dark side.
• I'm assuming the creepy guy in the cave watching Qimir and Osha is the actual Sith Lord, since he had the yellow eyes. Qimir might be connected to him or he might not be, but either way Qimir might not be Osha's last master.

Spoiler

This has been a thing for a while in other media, the crystal “bleeds” when the dark sider channels rage through it. I thought it was a cool effect.

The creepy guy in the cave is apparently Darth Plaguis.

 

[Museum Pieces]

I expect Sol to have his moral self-revelation and new moral action, which I imagine will require him to die. But who knows? Not having any idea where episode eight is going is not necessarily a bad thing.

Well butter my backside and call me a biscuit, I was mostly wrong yet again.

Spoiler

Sol had no moral self revelation and no new moral action. He was never going to tell Osha the truth and only admitted it because he got caught. He didn't even bother to say it was a mistake, that he didn't mean to do it, which is the impression I got.

So who is the moral authority in this show? It isn't the Jedi.

Here's a question. I got the impression it was the witches as a collective that attacked the Jedi, and the Jedi were defending themselves. If so, how are the Jedi responsible for what happened? They never attacked. Did I miss something?

I thought this episode had a cool light saber showdown, and I appreciated the shout out to episode III and episode VI.

Spoiler

It felt largely unresolved. Headland is sure counting on a second season. We'll see. I never heard what the official numbers were on The Acolyte.

 

[Alex...]

Finally we get

Spoiler

Darth Plagueis in live action.

 

[NeilO]

Here's a question. I got the impression it was the witches as a collective that attacked the Jedi, and the Jedi were defending themselves. If so, how are the Jedi responsible for what happened? They never attacked. Did I miss something?

That is how I interpreted it. It was a tragedy with poor actions on both sides.

 

[Simon Massey]

I guess the central mystery is resolved but I do think they misled about this being about the Sith unless they are counting on Season 2. I did enjoy them leaning into the institution of the Jedi itself being the central problem.

For me it’s the weakest of the series they’ve released so far although it still has potential going forward and I’d did like the reveal that Osha never trained as a Jedi and was more susceptible to anger/Dark Side etc. I’m sure the Red lightsaber thing will have people questioning why that didn’t happen to Anakin

It still seems that can’t let go of connecting every series to the larger saga already completed though.

Loved Harewoods character and his chat with Venestra.

 

[Simon Massey]

It would not surprise me if Qimir is rejected by Plagueis (only 2 etc) in the future and becomes the instigator of the Knights of Ren. He is too interesting a character for them to just have him killed by Plaguis or Osha. Or perhaps
Plaguis betrays Qimir by getting osha to try and kill him, fails and he ends up killing Osha but leaving, resulting in Plaguies needing a new apprentice

They have certainly set it up for a Sith centric Season 2 after a Jedi centric Season 1

 

[Museum Pieces]

That is how I interpreted it. It was a tragedy with poor actions on both sides.

Then why is Sol guilty of anything but defending himself like any Jedi is taught? The inciting incident is ambiguous, which normally I would appreciate, since life is that way, but when you build your entire plot around a group of people being blamed for doing nothing wrong, and in the end the main culpable person doesn't try to stand up for themselves and say it was all a tragic misunderstanding...it's hard to bring much credibility to how it spirals out of control. Normally trying to cover something up is what gets you caught, but here it's taking blame for something that wasn't their fault. The witches attacked. The Jedi defended themselves. The witches are at fault. Period. So I don't see why lying was necessary. I did like the nod to episodes III and VI. Luke thought Vader was worth saving. Here we see what happens when the child doesn't believe the father figure is worth saving. That was pretty strong. It was all the nonsense I had to endure to get there that makes this unwatchable for me a second time--and almost not worth watching the first time. There ends up being no moral authority in this show. A first, I believe, for Star Wars. And I hope, a last. Moral authority makes credible drama, even when it is vastly outnumbered.

 

[Clinton McClure]

I’m sure the Red lightsaber thing will have people questioning why that didn’t happen to Anakin

Retcon incoming!