Star Wars SE's Why do people care?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Tim Campbell, Aug 20, 2001.

  1. Tim Campbell

    Tim Campbell Agent

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    Okay before the flaming begins....
    I did not have a problem with the re makes. I liked them. My opinion is that if Lucas re made them to what he wanted then why is it a bastardization(sp)? I know a lot of people dont like the Greedo scene, but the rest of the movie, I thought was an improvement. THoughts?
     
  2. JeremyJones

    JeremyJones Agent

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    Agreed. Especially the end of A New Hope. The new attack on the Death Star was breathtaking. Lucas would be wise, however, to offer the original versions on a 2nd or 3rd disc. I think we'd all pay for that.
     
  3. Jeff Ulmer

    Jeff Ulmer Producer

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  4. Prentice Cotham

    Prentice Cotham Supporting Actor

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    Star Wars has transcended film. It's a what we grew up with. It's part of our culture unlike any other film has ever done. When Lucas returns to these films and changes them considerably, then he is in a sense destroying part of our culture or bastardizing as you put it. Plus, it destoys the magic of the films of what he was able to do with a limited budget. The Greedo scene is the worst crime of the film.
    Other notables:
    "Jedi rocks" Jabba's band scene
    Han's awkaward step up on Jabba
    The new Ewok ending song...awful
    The best thing they did was add the Biggs scene.
     
  5. Walter Kittel

    Walter Kittel Producer

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    Two reasons, for me...
    1) The original Star Wars films are a landmark in cinematic history. Regardless of one's individual thoughts about the films, there is no denying their influence and popularity. Current and future generations should have access to the original versions as they are an important part of our film heritage.
    2) While the practical details are another matter, films ideally should not be the subject of revisionism. When a film is 'finished', it should stay finished. I would gladly forgo the alternate 'director's cuts', that sometimes improve a film experience, to see this practice abolished. ( Not that this will happen, since this has become another means of generating income. )
    - Walter.
     
  6. Coressel

    Coressel Supporting Actor

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    ""Jedi rocks" Jabba's band scene
    The new Ewok ending song...awful"
    It's a matter of opinion. I think those two parts are massively improved in the SE.
    I have no problem at all with the Star Wars Special Editions. Calling the originals sacred relics is the mistake, in my opinion.
    "When a film is 'finished', it should stay finished."
    I just do not understand this philosophy. Why does film have to be seen as so completely different from other art forms? Artists, playwrights, poets, etc. have revised, updated or enhanced their work for centuries. Is film a lesser art form in that it can't be re-worked this way?
    I have a bigger problem with having two different movies with the title "Bedazzled" or a remake of "Psycho" than I do with Lucas trying to complete his Star Wars vision.
    [Edited last by Coressel on August 20, 2001 at 11:18 AM]
     
  7. Iain Lambert

    Iain Lambert Screenwriter

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    The difference here, Corressel, is that I can still fall about laughing at Pete 'n' Dud. I can still feel the shock of that shower scene. With Special Edition versions I can still grab my VHS off the shelf and appreciate the superior pacing of the theatrical Aliens release. If Lucas simply let us watch the new versions of the Trilogy as an entertaining and interesting alternate take on the films, I don't think many would complain. Its the revisionism of denying us the films we saw back then that hurts.
     
  8. CaptDS9E

    CaptDS9E Cinematographer

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    I grew up watching Star Wars as well, but all this complaining about the SE being the version Lucas wants now is worthless since they said a while ago the SE was going to be it for now on. Before the special editions came out they released the old versions and every commercial for the tapes said "Own the original version of the trilogy on VHS and Laserdisc for the last time". They told ya then so its not surprise. I picked up the laserdiscs as a momento to have since it was supposed to be the last time released in original form. I saw the SE's i liked em and i wouldnt be surprised if Lucas adds more stuff to the original's after the Prequal trilogy is over
    capt
     
  9. Coressel

    Coressel Supporting Actor

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    "...appreciate the superior pacing of the theatrical Aliens release..."
    Or the superior character development of the SE Aliens.
    I see what you're saying, but I'm not convinced it's that big of a deal or that we won't see the original cuts of the other Star Wars movies on DVD. It would be ok with me if just some parts of the originals appeared via alternate angle or whatever.
     
  10. Rob Gillespie

    Rob Gillespie Producer

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    [*]What Jeff Ulmer said[*]Some of the 'new' scenes look very fake, with that 'obvious CGI' quality[*]Some of the 'new' scenes look fantastic and stick out like a sore thumb[*]Jabba looks awful[*]The new soundtrack is inconsistent and sounds ham-fisted in places. The original soundtrack has more coherence[*]That Greedo scene
     
  11. Morgan Jolley

    Morgan Jolley Lead Actor

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    Lucas is a perfectionist. He didn't have the time or the budget to finish Episode I, so he finished it completely during Episode II. He will remake every last one until it is the way he wants it. I have nothing wrong with this, but I think that the originals should be made available on a DVD set. Maybe they could make a 9 disc set with the "original" and SE versions of Episodes I-VI and then have 3 discs of "Making Of" and "Behind the Scenes" and maybe even some info about Episodes VII-IX.
    I took a film study class last year (I'm in high school) and we watched Star Wars (A new hope). From the very first camera movement, the film altered film history (nobody had ever had a camera move while showing a shot of space because it cost too much to make a set that could be used for it). Nowadays, that isn't a big deal, but it was then, as was 90% of the film. I have multiple copies of the film (a few laserdisc sets of the original 3 movies, plus the VHS copies are here somewhere) and I'm thankful for it because I'm not sure if they will be available again.
     
  12. Chauncey_G

    Chauncey_G Second Unit

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    I don't mind so much that Lucas wanted to go back and improve effects and such. Let's face it, it was all just part of the marketing build-up for Episode I. It's when those changes come at the expense of character development and context that it annoys me. Like others on this thread, if these films are ever released onto DVD, I hope they come with the original versions as well. I'm not counting on it, but I hope so.
    Here are my problems with the Special Editions:
    1)A New Hope: The Greedo scene. For me, it's a character thing. Han Solo is a tough character residing in "a wretched hive of scum and villainy". He's a smuggler and a mercenary and he has had to live and make a living in this dangerous world using his wits and instincts. He could read the writing on the wall with Greedo, he knew his life was in danger so he shoots FIRST (don't forget, that's how Lucas wrote the original book in the first place). This sets Han's character up as a person who will do what it takes, even take a life, to protect himself. This is why his ultimate decision to risk everything and come to Luke's aid at the end of the movie is so dramatic.
    2)The Empire Strikes Back: This is nit-picky, so please forgive me. After Luke has taken the big fall in Cloud City and Vader waling out surrounded by his entourage (sp?) he says: "Bring my shuttle." In the SE this was removed. Who cares, right? For me, James Earl Jones packed a lot of impotent rage into that tiny little line. Vader's been killing people right and left through the entire film for failing him. Now he's lost the battle, and there is absolutely no one he can take this out on. He's furious and can't do a thing about it. When he said that line, I heard that emotion behind it. Now he says:"Inform my Star Destroyer to prepare for my arrival", or something like that, and all the emotion that I heard in the original line is gone.
    3)Return of the Jedi: As much as I like Muppets, I didn't find the necessity in having a Muppet song-and-dance number in Jabba's Palace which is supposed to be the vortex of evil on the entire planet. It was silly and took away from the whole point of the scene, which was to introduce the horror that Jabba kept under floor.
    The new ending song sounds nice and new-agey with a hint of native sound to it, and is certainly less stupid than the original "Yub-Nub" song. However, it just doesn't sound like something the Ewoks would come up with, does it? Let's face it: "Yub-Nub" was a stupid song and therefore fit the Ewoks perfectly (speaking of Ewoks, I still say they should have spent their considerable budget on CGI'ing them into Wookies [​IMG] ).
     
  13. JonZ

    JonZ Lead Actor

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    How about Lukes act of courage of jumping rather than go with Vader now accompanied in the SE with a girly scream.
    Pathetic.
    ------------------
    Visit My Pathetic WebPage
    "....With that in mind,I humbly add my own prophecy of
    what the dawn of the new millennium shall bring forth-
    one thousand more years of the same old crap" Jose Chung
     
  14. Geoffrey_A

    Geoffrey_A Second Unit

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    One of the main problems, as I see it, is Lucas's complete faith in computers when they really don't warrant such. Some of what was done in the special edition is good, most is not. The often mentioned Greedo scne is a prime example of the not. Not only was the change unneccessary, but it was poorly executed. The new attack on the deathstar is great, but if they were going to do that, they should have replaced the trench run too, as the effects are inconsistent and often times the perspective is off, making the trench run look wrong. Lucas has said that the trench run would have been more dramatic had the trench contained more obstacles, this would have been the perfect time to fix that. Many of the new effects served no purpose whatsoever, like the numerous Ronto's and probe droids in Mos Eisley. They're there purely as a "look what we can do" element, and that sucks. Sometimes they're even distracting and get in the way of the important stuff in the scene (ie. when the ronto walks in front of the camera during the "You don't need to see his identification" scene).
    Also, some of the small flubs they claim were corrected, we'ren't in fact. Take the Snowspeeders for instance. We're not supposed to be able to see through the canopy frame of the cockpit anymore, but freeze frame (or just look closely) it and sure enough, you can still see the background through the foreground, it's just darker than before. The Rancor Monster suffers from the same neglect, the matte lines have not been removed, just lessened, but they're still very noticeable.
    Some of the new additions have caused changes to the soundtrack, and this is also unfortunate. The problem here isn't with the soundtrack itself however, it's with those of us so familiar with the soundtrack that any slight deviation sticks out like a sore thumb. That always upset me when watching the SE's, A musical beat I expected to hear wouldn't come, I'd get confused, then it would land. Some aditional scenes have been added with no sense at all. Best example of this is the Scene in ESB in which Vader now has a whole set of scenes for returning to the star destroyer. This doesn't just alter the soundtrack, it chops it completely (a la TPM) and that is inexcusable. The scenes are pretty enough, but completely unneccessary. Apparently Lucas was concerned that the audience wouldn't understand how Vader got from Cloud city to the Star Destroyer, the original line "bring my shuttle" wasn't enough in Lucas's mind. But then, Lucas has been under-estimating his audience lately. One of the worst editions in my mind, both execution wise and story wise, is the addition of a scream to luke's plummet down the core-shaft of cloud city. Not only is does the scream sound horrendously fake, but severely alters the meaning of the scene. It changes from the quiet and dignified self-sacrifice of a Jedi into a 'whoops I slipped' whiney Luke moment. This scene was symbolic of Luke's acceptance of the Jedi ideals, and his willingness to sacrifice his own life to keep the dark side from winning, it's a shame they had to mess with that.
    Another change that shouldn't have been made? How about the "Jedi rocks" sequence. The worst CGI of all the SE's and a stupid sounding song. Oh, and let's not forget the addition of pig squeals and a beak to the sarlac pit. Takes away a lot fo the scare factor, knowing what's down there. Also, some lines were changed in this sequence. Han's "It's alright, Trust me" has been replaced by "It's alright, I can see a lot better now" Tell me, which sounds more Han Solo?
    I hold out hope that the original versions of the films will be released on DVD along with their special edition counterparts. Either 2 discs of seemless branching. The seemless branching might offer Lucas the unique and interesting special feature of allowing fans to create their own special editions by adding the revised scenes they like, keeping the originals for the ones they don't. If Lucas wants to be innovative with DVD as Lucasfilm claims, this would seem like an excellent feature to me. Certainly easier than the way I made my special editions of the first trillogy using the THX and SE laserdiscs and my s-deck.
    ------------------
    Geoff
    Now with Kung-Fu grip and realistic facial hair!
     
  15. Geoffrey_A

    Geoffrey_A Second Unit

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    *sigh* thought my message got wiped out,but it seems to be here now, so whatever. pretend I'm not here [​IMG]
    [Edited last by Geoffrey_A on August 20, 2001 at 03:18 PM]
     
  16. Adam Lenhardt

    Adam Lenhardt Executive Producer

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    Unfortuneately, some of the alternate lines in the films weren't because Lucas perfered them, but there wasn't a good enough version of that scene. The replacement of Luke's line "You're lucky you don't taste very good." upon the droid being spit out is an example of this.
    Personally, I'd rather have had a slight difference in quality than an alternate (and inferior) take.
     
  17. Richard Kim

    Richard Kim Producer

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    Concerning the Greedo scene, Lucas always intended for Greedo to shoot first, but he could never get it to look right. Personally, I don't think it affects Han character greatly, the new scene just looks stupid to me.
    quote: As much as I like Muppets, I didn't find the necessity in having a Muppet song-and-dance number in Jabba's Palace which is supposed to be the vortex of evil on the entire planet. It was silly and took away from the whole point of the scene, which was to introduce the horror that Jabba kept under floor.[/quote]
    As cheesey as Jedi Rocks was, it was a hell of alot better than the crappy Lapti Nek song in the original.
    quote: The new ending song sounds nice and new-agey with a hint of native sound to it, and is certainly less stupid than the original "Yub-Nub" song. However, it just doesn't sound like something the Ewoks would come up with, does it? Let's face it: "Yub-Nub" was a stupid song and therefore fit the Ewoks perfectly [/quote]
    This was probably the best change made in the special editions. By showing celebrations all across the galaxy, it widens the scope of the saga by showing the concequences of the Rebel victory at Endor. Also the music helps do that too. It has a bittersweet quality to it, in contrast to the goofy "Yub-Nub" song. When Luke sees the ghost of Anakin smiling proudly at him with the new music I felt chills go down my spine.
    [Edited last by Richard Kim on August 20, 2001 at 05:43 PM]
     
  18. James D S

    James D S Screenwriter

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    In inclusion to the plethora of problems already mentioned, and they are all valid, is that these movies, especially A New Hope were technical landmarks that garnered many Oscars for their efforts. By remaking them, and significantly changing those aspects, we are left with movies, that by today's standards are not as visually impressive, while losing the connection with the technical feats accomplished 20+ years ago. It's a lose/lose situation that only seems to benefit the debut of Episode 1. By 'updating' the imagery to 1997 standards, the magic and hardwork that made the original movies so special is lost. It's up to Lucas if he wants that loss to be permanent.
    And let's face it, Jabba looks horrible as a CGI slug in the SE, not to mention the fact that as a storytelling device, Lucas 'blew his wad' were Jabba is concerned considering how the original trilogy built up the Jabba mystique that pays HUGE dividends when he is finally unveiled in Jedi. As it stands with the SE, Jabba plays like a two-bit junkie with little charisma and no menace. For crying out loud, he let's one of his hired Hans walk all over him. (Couldn't resist [​IMG] ) In the original story, the awesome terror of a faceless, ruthless gangster and the shadow he casts on a terrified Han convey the sense of urgency perectly to the point when Han leaves the Rebellion, we understand and we sympathize. In the SE's, when Han decides to leave his friends, we wonder why. After all, we just saw Jabba, and he was a punk. Surely nothing to get all worked up about, in any case.
    [Edited last by James D S on August 20, 2001 at 05:56 PM]
     
  19. Glenn Overholt

    Glenn Overholt Producer

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    I'm for the original editions as well, and no - I didn't grow up with them as I was in my late 20's then.
    When Lucas said that he wanted to make them the 'right way' I can see the changes in most of the scenes, and I did like them, but I am having trouble with the text.
    I find the Greedo screen to be totally distasteful too, as well as Luke screaming like a baby when he fell. It put an entirely different mood on the movies.
    As for works of art being changed after they are done, I really can't agree. Can you see an artist walking into the Guggenheim Museum with a bucket of paint and a brush. "Ah, I made a mistake on one of my paintings and I need to fix it."
    Yeah, ok. Sure!
    I read the LOTR books years ago, and found out that the hardback edition was not the same as the paperback. The words were all there, but they had moved entire sections around in the chapters. The hardbound edition was much more suspensful. If something is released, it should stay that way, period!
    Glenn
     
  20. Bruce Hedtke

    Bruce Hedtke Cinematographer

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    I don't think the argument that once a film is cut, it is "done" and shouldn't be touched again holds much water. Lucas has said that at the time of the remakes that during the initial shooting of his films, he was too ahead of technology. He was waiting for it to catch up to his visions. When it did, he immediately went back and remade his films. Is that wrong? Surely, some of the choices he approved are questionable in the fans minds, but he has rights and reasons to remake any of his films. And don't be suprised to see any of the first three episodes undergo similar treatments. Lucas has bemoaned being ahead of technology again, according to the Wired interview he gave just before Episode 1 was released.
    I, for one, have no reservations about not having access to the OT. I know that if you grew up with the films, it has to be tough news to swallow. But, as Lucas has said, the OT are not the films he wanted to make. The Special Editions are.
    Bruce
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    Welcome aboard the Satellite of Love
     

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