Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones (2002) (3 Viewers)

[Grant H]

Hehe. Justifiable homicide, baby. Justifiable homicide.

 

[Grant H]

And the ones who came back didn't have all their body parts.
Padme also saw them try to shoot Anakin when he was a little boy racing his pod. If she remembers that, I'm sure she doesn't hold much love for them.
I'd pay real money to hear her say "I'm glad you killed those ****ers!"
I think the prequels have actually fleshed out the Tuskens a bit compared to our ANH experience with them.
Was just thinking...if in Tusken society the women and children depend on the men for survival, maybe Anakin put an early end to their suffering. He's a humanitarian.

 

[Greg_S_H]

I'd like to see the longer version of Anakin's search for the Tuskens. He found the remains of the search party, and other signs of the Tuskens' depredations. I believe McCallum or Burtt said those scenes were filmed (but, presumably not finished like the DVD's deleted scenes).

 

[Chris Atkins]

With the title for Episode III confirmed as REVENGE OF THE SITH, I think it's neat how the titles for Episode II and III have, at least, double meanings. For the casual viewer, the Republic "attacks" in Episode II and the Sith get their revenge in Episode III. But we know that the "attack" in II is just orchestrated by a Sith.
Kind of neat...

 

[Tim Glover]

I posted on Friday morning that I would post some thoughts on the great discussion that took place last week. I was on a trip and would have loved to have been a part of the discussion.
Some of the topics were the romance effectiveness of AOTC (Padme-Anakin), acting performances etc..., and redemption. The redemption discussion has my interest the most.
I'm certainly not the authority on such topics but here's some of my thoughts.
I also watched Episode I & 2 again. Let me say that for me, Episode II is a much better film in nearly every regard. We've all seen this film a bunch but I had forgotten how much the film works and does what it's suppose to do. While I liked Ep. 1, the faults I find are difficult to ignore. Sure there are great moments. Some are obvious-Maul-QGJ-Obi duel are fantastic, and other moments that are simple like the dinner conversation in Shmi's home with Qui Gon Jin. Perhaps the best acting in the entire film. I won't list the negatives here as these have been very well articulated.
Episode II is a terrific Star Wars film for me. Ranking these is always difficult and I seem to flip flop frequently.
This is not a knock on Ep. II but I still rank it behind the OT. Some of my reasons are personal and would be silly to you if I mentioned them.
I would rank it very, very close to ROTJ. ROTJ certainly has some flaws, but I cannot ignore the greatness of the final hour of the movie. It's such an emotional payoff for the trilogy that it's easily forgiven of any moments that may not work as well.
No film is truly perfect. I can think of maybe 3-4 films that I would consider close to perfection for me. Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, Titanic, & The Fellowship of the Ring are the ones that I wouldn't change a thing about them.
Okay, sorry for being too wordy.
Regarding the romance of Anakin-Padme. Someone already posted that maybe in the beginning Padme's affection toward Anakin was maternal? I would have to agree with that a little myself. I recall the scene in TPM when they are approaching Coruscant. Padme finds Anakin shivering in a corner on the ship. She brings him a blanket, comforts him in a motherly way. Even seems to know what he is thinking when she finishes his sentence, " I care about you too, but I..." she replies, "miss your mother."
I think we're suppose to have the feeling that Padme has lost out (by choice) on any normal relationships. With her very young Queenship, and now Senator, she has had little time to find romance or a soul-mate. In the AOTC novel, I get the sense she covets her sisters children in the sense of wanting something that her life choices have prevented.
I think the relationship works for Anakin-Padme. Both are flawed, but also seem to yearn for something or someone. Padme is seen as the wiser, more competent, level headed of the two. However, we see her confession of her love to Anakin as she feels they are about to die.
I have thought alot about the now famous-much criticized-easily targeted fireplace scene. Let me throw out why I think this scene works. Most of the critics of the scene are put off by the awkward, uncomfortable, and strange dialogue from Anakin. For me, that is why that scene works. Anakin is already been characterized as brash, impulsive, arrogant, even childish. He has not had any mentoring, other than joining the Jedi when he was 9.
Anakin pours his heart out in the only way he knows how. It shouldn't be a surprise to us that he cannot handle his emotions nor find some eloquent-smooth way to woo Padme. These feelings of love and wanting her are new to him as well and what we see are his true feelings being shown.
I think alot of us find what he says and how it's said awkward and uncomfortable and I say that's why it works. Just like when Obi Wan and Anaking are approaching Dooku, and Anakin shouts, "No, I'm taking him now!" and heads for Dooku. Impulsive and raw.
I'm sure that explanation will some to cry that I'm a GL rationalizer and apologizer. I hope that by being a big fan doesn't rule out one's true feelings on such matters. Sure, I'm bias toward the world of Star Wars much in the same way I'm bias toward my favorite football team (Texas A&M), musicians etc...
Redemption:
Wow. This is a deep rooted issue and personal too. I don't know how to really state my feelings without getting personal or too spiritual thus having my post removed. So I'll try and tread lightly.
Can one redeem the slaughter of the Tusken camp? Can one redeem the eventual purging of the Jedi, Alderan etc...? It seems that in the world of Star Wars and GL this is possible. I go in favor of Anakin-Vader being the same person. The boy/Anakin chose to leave his mother in TPM. An event that GL stated was his real first step to the dark side. The Tusken slaughter, the rage-anger we see in him, the deceptive plan he tries to get Padme to choose for their love to survive all say this man has a real dark side that is probably as strong as the good side in him.
Let's also remember that while we are shocked and appalled that he slaughters the Tuskens and nearly equally flabergasted that Padme would somehow justify these actions, we are also pleased and cheering for him in the end when Anakin saves Obi Wan's life. Count Dooku is about to slice Obi Wan in half when Anakin emerges:
Dooku: "Brave of you boy, but I would have thought you'd learned your lesson?"
Anakin: "I am a slow learner"
That scene always gives me a smile and goosebumps. And this is still a movie and not real life.
Here's some excerpts from the book, Star Wars: The Power of Myth:
Reconciliation With The Father...
...on his long journey, the mythical hero sometimes needs to make amends with his father to achieve completion. When Luke refuses to kill his father at the Emperor's bidding, the Emperor is enraged and turns on him. Helpless, Luke appeals to his father for help. This is Darth Vader's moment to find the good in himself. After an agonizing few seconds of hesitation, Vader's good side wins over the evil. He redeems himself by saving Luke & destroying the Emperor, but it's at the cost of his own life.
The removal of Vader's mask is symbolic of his release from the Dark Side of the Force. Luke no longer fears his father & can now see him as a person. He has turned back to the side of the good and shows that, in the end, he has a heart that can be opened by love for his son. With the Emperor destroyed, Luke's adventure ends happily. The spirits of Yoda, Obi Wan & Anakin Skywalker-no longer Darth Vader-watch the celebration.
Luke burns his fathers's armor on a ceremonial funeral pyre. In mythology and many religions, fires are believed to purify the soul, setting it free to rise to Heaven. For Luke, the victory is greater because he has won freedom for the galaxy and restored his father's spirit to the good side of the Force.
For me, Anakin-Vader is ultimately redeemed. Not a hero. I find Luke to be my hero of the OT.
Sorry for very long post. :b

 

[Larry Sutliff]

Great post, Tim!

 

[Tim Glover]

Thanks Larry. I was beginning to think that my very long and not so articulate post shut the discussion down, but I realized that I was also late getting it there and missed out on the active topic. :b

 

[Holadem]

I have thought alot about the now famous-much criticized-easily targeted fireplace scene. Let me throw out why I think this scene works. Most of the critics of the scene are put off by the awkward, uncomfortable, and strange dialogue from Anakin. For me, that is why that scene works. Anakin is already been characterized as brash, impulsive, arrogant, even childish. He has not had any mentoring, other than joining the Jedi when he was 9.
Anakin pours his heart out in the only way he knows how. It shouldn't be a surprise to us that he cannot handle his emotions nor find some eloquent-smooth way to woo Padme. These feelings of love and wanting her are new to him as well and what we see are his true feelings being shown.
I think alot of us find what he says and how it's said awkward and uncomfortable and I say that's why it works. Just like when Obi Wan and Anaking are approaching Dooku, and Anakin shouts, "No, I'm taking him now!" and heads for Dooku. Impulsive and raw.
I'm sure that explanation will some to cry that I'm a GL rationalizer and apologizer.

Yes you are .
Sorry Tim, no go: Most people can tell the difference between a scene that intentionally ackward and another that is unintentionally so. That horrid fire scene is firmly planted in the latter category.
The former still leaves you in the movie, feeling the unease of the characters i.e, seing and hearing Anakin say ackward stuff. The latter makes YOU uneasy, destroys suspension of disbelief, and reminds you that you are seing Hayden read bad lines.
No redemption for that scene
--
H

 

[Tim Glover]

We'll have to politely disagree there Holadem, but I can understand your view. But it's not the fanboy theory that accepts that scene. "fanboy theory" usually means accepting all or nearly all that GL throws at us. I have many issues with other moments in the SAGA. The fireplace scene, while far from perfection, is not one of them.
I guess in the end, it doesn't matter if that scene worked or not because it appeared to grab Padme. They ended up getting married and had aggressive negotiations and made children.

 

[Greg_S_H]

It's only fanboy if you insist on everyone agreeing that it's a good scene (or the other way around). Frankly, I don't mind the scene, and that's all that matters to me when I'm watching the movie.

BTW, anyone else completely sick of the term "fanboy?"

 

[Larry Sutliff]

BTW, anyone else completely sick of the term "fanboy?"

It doesn't bother me too much. Besides, most of the people who attack SW fans with the epithet "fanboy" are usually themselves fanboys for some other franchises.

 

[Tim Glover]

I agree with you Greg regarding the term fanboy. I've used it some recently to describe myself thinking that was somehow a way to make a disclaimer beating other opposers to the punch. And most of us here are reasonably objective fans too.
Another reason to admire AOTC is the website that Greg gave us awhile back and it's worth another look for those of you needing that special fix.
http://gwiezdne-wojny.stopklatka.pl/...opolitan_3.jpg
:alien:

 

[Tim Glover]

Thought I would revive this thread in honor of Chris Atkins who had a big birthday on Saturday! I was out of town so this is a late greeting ...Chris was and is an admirer of Attack Of The Clones and I thought he could use a greeting from Taun We. ...
Happy Birthday Chris!!! Hope you had a great one.

 

[Qui-Gon John]

Cool. Actually I am watching the entire saga over my weekend (Wed night thru Sat).

3 plot points, (so far), that as far as I can recall, we never learned any more about. At least in the movies, I'm not including fan speculation. Please let me know if there was anything official that I just missed.

1. Anakin's "virgin" birth?

2. More about the midichlorians and why they're never mentioned in 4-6?

3. Exactly who the heck was Sifo-Dias?

 

[Chuck Mayer]

Happy birthday Atkins! I will refrain from smarmy AOTC comments in honor of you (again)

 

[Lou Sytsma]

Belated Happy Birthday Chris! I too will take the high road.

 

[Larry Sutliff]

Happy Birthday, Chris!

 

[Rhoq]

Cool. Actually I am watching the entire saga over my weekend (Wed night thru Sat).
3 plot points, (so far), that as far as I can recall, we never learned any more about. At least in the movies, I'm not including fan speculation. Please let me know if there was anything official that I just missed.
1. Anakin's "virgin" birth?
2. More about the midichlorians and why they're never mentioned in 4-6?
3. Exactly who the heck was Sifo-Dias?

1 & 2 were plot points written for the prequel films. I don't think Lucas had any of that in mind when creating the original Trilogy which is why you've never heard anything about it prior to The Phantom Menace. Then again, given the context of both trilogies are quite different - where, when and how would you work that into the OOT? The only time that would present itself would be when Obi Wan first tells Luke about the Jedi.
Since the OOT was Luke's story, non of that would have really mattered since Obi Wan & Yoda would have already known that both Luke & Leia have a high concentration of midichlorians in their blood so there would have been no real reason for them to speculate. Regardless - back then Lucas didn't have any of the Star Wars saga fleshed-out anyways. It was a single film - the rest of the story came later, after the phenomenal success of the original "Star Wars" (despite what Lucas now claims).
3 - I've heard theories that Sifo Dias was the Jedi Master who eventually became the Sith Lord, Darth Plagueis. When they say that he had died 10 years earlier, I think it's a metaphor - just like how Luke was told that Darth Vader betrayed and murdered Anakin Skywalker. Though that doesn't quite sound right to me, since Plageuis would have had to have been around prior to the events of Episode I to teach Palpetine how to manipulate the midichorians into creating Anakin (unless those theories are false as well)...

 

[TravisR]

If I remember correctly, Sifo Dias was a Jedi Council member that went behind the back of the council and commissioned the Kaminoans to make the clone army because he thought it was needed. I guess he was in cahoots with Dooku (before anyone knew Dooku had gone to the Dark Side) and eventually Dooku killed him to prove his loyalty to Palpatine. It may have also been left kinda vague so you could say that Dooku killed Sifo Dias, impersonated him and ordered the clone army.

Nearly all of that is Expanded Universe stuff though.

 

[Richard Kim]

In earlier drafts of AOTC, Sifo-Dyas was originally "Sido-Dyas," implying that it was Sideous/Palpatine who ordered the clone army. This was changed most likely to make the connection less obvious.

As for the virgin birth and the midis (this is most likely off-topic for the AOTC board), it is implied that Darth Plagueis may have been responsible for conceiving Anakin based on Palpatine's "using the midichlorians to create life" speech in ROTS.