Star Trek: Picard - Season One - CBS All Access - starring Patrick Stewart (2 Viewers)

[Josh Steinberg]

When the original crew moved to the big screen, McCoy’s dialogue was often peppered with a “goddamn” here and there, something that I still don’t believe is permitted on broadcast TV. And of course, there is Star Trek IV, in which harsh language is used as an amusing plot point.

I have no problem with it, either way

The FCC is unlikely to ding you for using “goddamn” - context matters but they’re still unlikely to take action on that. What’s more likely is that networks have their own internal standards, and advertisers have their own standards as well, which often results in networks being more restrictive than the actual regulations require. On top of that, once the decision is made for what to cut or not cut, they’re not necessarily looking over their broadcast masters at each airing to make adjustments based on changing standards.

 

[Jason_V]

You really want to put hell on the same playing field as that other word?

So tell me, which group is going to have a problem with hell? Who is going to clutch their pearls, scream “think about the children” and point their noses up in disgust?

Taking a riff on what Shelby said to Riker TNG...if you can’t take some adult language in a show made by adults, for adults and on a pay streaming channel, maybe it’s time to say the show isn’t for you and move on.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

You really want to put hell on the same playing field as that other word?

So tell me, which group is going to have a problem with hell? Who is going to clutch their pearls, scream “think about the children” and point their noses up in disgust?

Taking a riff on what Shelby said to Riker TNG...if you can’t take some adult language in a show made by adults, for adults and on a pay streaming channel, maybe it’s time to say the show isn’t for you and move on.

Maybe there's miscommunication here, but I wasn't the one who suggested "hell" is meaningfully vulgar, except w/ some hyper-religious/superstitious (or rather old fashioned) folks.

I was pointing out the example you gave ("bat out of hell" as said by Geordi) basically doesn't register as vulgar at all. It's actually even arguable that was a fairly literate (and culturally savvy) expression for Geordi to use, not remotely vulgar at all. It certainly isn't evidence that people in Star Fleet by that time would use any vulgar language -- "hell" just like "damn" wouldn't have the same meaning for them as for us or more religious/superstitious people of our time...

_Man_

 

[Jason_V]

It’s evidence that Starfleet folks would use language that, at the time, audiences might find objectionable.

Let’s take another. The word “merde.” It’s French and it’s a curse. Yet no one made any mention of it when Picard said it.

There’s been a precedent for words or actions or even people some people in the audience mind find objectionable for decades. Goes all the way back to a black woman being in a position of power on the ship. Those people who objected to Uhura were silly and it’s a non issue now. Over time, this word will be a non issue in Trek, too.

 

[Nelson Au]

Commodore Decker said the H word too, though referring to the location, rather, as the place the Doomsday Machine came from.

I think several members already have said it, but I tend to agree that for us long time Star Trek viewers, the use of words that have been considered more adult was never used on Star Trek TOS and TNG and the other Berman era shows beyond the H and D words. And that’s because of the standards for broadcast TV that has been said. So it does become a surprise when Tully or an Admiral will use an adult word not considered polite in mixed company. For some, it’s not acceptable. I think many fans regard Star Trek as good family entertainment with a positive message about the future of man. And the characters are all positive and good role models. So we want our kids to see it. But to a lot of people, that language is not acceptable for children to hear. I get that. But as was said, it is interesting how society changes and what’s acceptable or not will evolve over time. For now, I think many parents may not let their children watch these new Star Trek shows.

To paraphrase what the Metron said, right now I feel our society is still not ready for this much change yet, perhaps in a 1000 years.

On a similar note, and I think Chabin would think it’s silly, what’s wrong with using words that are meant as swear words but aren’t, like Galactica did? I think I heard Tilly also say an alternate version of the F word once. Though I can see kids having innocent fun with that.

I think Stewart is not onboard with this. I believe I heard him say he was surprised by it. I don’t think he ever used those words on screen, just those around him did. So he has say to what the upcoming season could do. He may or may not oppose its use.

 

[Nelson Au]

Jason, just saw your post, I didn’t know about that French word. I don’t know French so it went over my head, no doubt as intended. I’m going to do a re-watch of Picard, so I’ll be listening.

 

[Jason_V]

Jason, just saw your post, I didn’t know about that French word. I don’t know French so it went over my head, no doubt as intended. I’m going to do a re-watch of Picard, so I’ll be listening.

I’m not sure he used it in Picard, but it was for sure in TNG and in various comics and books.

 

[Nelson Au]

I see, a quick internet search and it popped up on YouTube. Second season TNG, Elementary, Dear Data. I’ve never heard that word before, and it was so under his breadth, I didn’t even know what he said.

 

[Sam Favate]

I think Stewart is not onboard with this. I believe I heard him say he was surprised by it. I don’t think he ever used those words on screen, just those around him did. So he has say to what the upcoming season could do. He may or may not oppose its use.

Stewart himself used many of these harsher words in Logan.

Anyway, I always go back to what George Carlin said: (paraphrasing) “There are no bad words. Bad thoughts, yes. Bad people, sure. But bad words? No.”

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

It’s evidence that Starfleet folks would use language that, at the time, audiences might find objectionable.

Perhaps we should make clear there are at least 2 separate issues at play here: 1) how audiences perceive things, 2) how the characters themselves mean and perceive them w/out any knowledge of an outside audience.

Of course, #1 certainly affected how the storytellers/filmmakers approach #2, but to maintain good continuity, they probably shouldn't merely say #1 has changed, so #2 should change quite equally so nor should they completely ignore what came before for #2 to justify what they're doing now, if continuity (and reasonable evolution of such) is important.

Finally, the original discussion was much more about #2 than #1.

_Man_

 

[The Obsolete Man]

The problem with the language in NuTrek to me isn't the language itself, it's the fact that it felt like they had a fu*k quota to work into each episode to show how hip and edgy they were now.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

To me, the language didn’t really cause me to raise an eyebrow one way or the other. I believed that it was in character for the people we saw using it in the context in which they did, so I just accepted it in the same way that I’d accept anything else happening.

For me, Picard the show was 100% successful at fulfilling the expectations that it set for itself. I was a very happy viewer.

 

[Bryan^H]

I don't mind it for myself, but I always thought of Star Trek as a show that could be enjoyed by all ages (especially the youngsters for the imagination, and wonderment of space alone). I started watching TOS when I was 5, and call me old fashioned but I would never expose a 5 year old to a Trek show that easily uses the "F" word in multiple episodes. The world has enough ugliness in it, and that word in my opinion has no place in a child's vocabulary.

 

[Jason_V]

Perhaps we should make clear there are at least 2 separate issues at play here: 1) how audiences perceive things, 2) how the characters themselves mean and perceive them w/out any knowledge of an outside audience.

Of course, #1 certainly affected how the storytellers/filmmakers approach #2, but to maintain good continuity, they probably shouldn't merely say #1 has changed, so #2 should change quite equally so nor should they completely ignore what came before for #2 to justify what they're doing now, if continuity (and reasonable evolution of such) is important.

Finally, the original discussion was much more about #2 than #1.

_Man_

So now this is about continuity? If that was so very important, we’d all be discounting the franchise based on the second episode of TOS.

I don't mind it for myself, but I always thought of Star Trek as a show that could be enjoyed by all ages (especially the youngsters for the imagination, and wonderment of space alone). I started watching TOS when I was 5, and call me old fashioned but I would never expose a 5 year old to a Trek show that easily uses the "F" word in multiple episodes. The world has enough ugliness in it, and that word in my opinion has no place in a child's vocabulary.

I don’t disagree. That word shouldn’t be in a kid’s vocabulary. A five year old shouldn’t be watching live action Trek, regardless. Every iteration is full of violence and action and themes no kid is ready for at that age.

The TV-MA rating has a reason for the show. If a parent doesn’t take note of that, I don’t know what to say. If they let their kid have full reign of the tv and all streaming options, then that’s the real problem in my opinion.

Good convo, guys. Truly, we disagree but never stopped to the level of name calling or stuff like that. I’m kinda proud.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

When there was only one Trek show at a time (or close to it), I think there was value in having it be something appropriate (more or less) for all ages. But now that we have multiple shows, I’m glad that the people making them are being given the freedom to find and curate their own audiences. I find that it’s leading to much richer storytelling by allowing them not to have to conform to a G or PG template.

I think it’s also vital to the success of the franchise going forward that it not be limited to production techniques and standards from a previous era. There’s probably no faster way to ensure that the shows fail to catch on than to make them exactly the same as they used to. I don’t think of art as a competition per se but the marketplace certainly is, and viewers only have so many hours in the day.

I agree that Trek isn’t the same as it once was, but I don’t think that’s bad. The Rick Bergman era sputtered to a quiet whimper of an end in large part because audiences faded away after nearly 20 years of identical production techniques and content standards and similar stories. I’m glad to have seven years of TNG, DS9 and VOY, and four years of ENT. But I think another show that was made in the same way, addressing the same subject matter in the same way, would have been DOA.

I know there are people who love fan made shows like Star Trek Continues, and I really don’t want to crap on something people enjoy that’s clearly made with love, so as gently as I can, I want to say I find that show nearly unbearable to watch. It feels not dishonest, but disingenuous almost, to be so slavish to the old aesthetic. I prefer the mindset of “that’s how the show was made then because those are the tools they had, this is how we make it now with the tools we have today, but it’s understood that it’s meant to be of the same world, it’s just that this is how we portray that today.” I think there’s a limited audience that will enjoy Star Trek Continues and that approach and I’m glad it exists for those who can enjoy it. But I think the Trek universe would have died out instantly if that was the mindset the new CBS AA shows were taking.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

The FCC is unlikely to ding you for using “goddamn” - context matters but they’re still unlikely to take action on that. What’s more likely is that networks have their own internal standards, and advertisers have their own standards as well, which often results in networks being more restrictive than the actual regulations require. On top of that, once the decision is made for what to cut or not cut, they’re not necessarily looking over their broadcast masters at each airing to make adjustments based on changing standards.

It always makes me laugh when I hear a song with "goddamn" on the radio and they bleep or silence the "God" rather than the "damn".

I would rank Carlin's seven dirty words, from most dirty to least dirty as follows:

1. Cunt: The only word on this list that isn't a regular part of my vocabulary. I know it's less of a big deal in some countries, but in the US this is definitely the big kahuna in terms of inappropriate language.
2. Fuck: The worst of the rest. More than a couple of these, and you've got yourself an R rating.
3. Motherfucker: See above. Simply a variation on the same theme.
4. Cocksucker: This one makes the upper echelon because of the explicitness of the sexual act being referenced.
5. Shit: It certainly happens.
6. Piss: A bodily function, but not usually a sexual act unless you're into that kind of thing.
7. Tits: I'm not even sure I would consider this a swear word at this point. Rude and a bit vulgar, sure. But that's about all.

To me, the language didn’t really cause me to raise an eyebrow one way or the other. I believed that it was in character for the people we saw using it in the context in which they did, so I just accepted it in the same way that I’d accept anything else happening.

That's the key for me. If the character didn't swear on the original show, they either shouldn't swear on the new show or movie or they should be in a situation they never found themselves in on the original show.

Most of the swearing came from characters we hadn't met in previous iterations of Star Trek. When it came to Picard himself, there is a difference between the man in uniform and a man who has been discontentedly retired for years. I get the sense that in uniform Picard held himself to a higher standard of personal conduct than he does now. He's also dealing with characters that are a lot rougher around the edges than he dealt with back then, because the Alpha Quadrant is a much more unsettled place than it was back then.

As for Seven of Nine, she's a lot more human than she was during her run on "Voyager" -- she's had another two decades of living as an individual rather than as a drone. She's also been through some shit and seen some shit since then.

 

[TJPC]

Maybe I have a different perspective here being Canadian, but I really welcome the swearing. To me, finally TV made in the US is being made for the real world. I find it much more offensive when say watching the news and people are committing a crime and CNN is bleeping every other word. It just seems to make something serious comical.

 

[Bryan^H]

I agree that Trek isn’t the same as it once was, but I don’t think that’s bad. The Rick Bergman era sputtered to a quiet whimper of an end in large part because audiences faded away after nearly 20 years of identical production techniques and content standards and similar stories. I’m glad to have seven years of TNG, DS9 and VOY, and four years of ENT. But I think another show that was made in the same way, addressing the same subject matter in the same way, would have been DOA.

I agree.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

It always makes me laugh when I hear a song with "goddamn" on the radio and they bleep or silence the "God" rather than the "damn".

I would rank Carlin's seven dirty words, from most dirty to least dirty as follows:

1. Cunt: The only word on this list that isn't a regular part of my vocabulary. I know it's less of a big deal in some countries, but in the US this is definitely the big kahuna in terms of inappropriate language.
2. Fuck: The worst of the rest. More than a couple of these, and you've got yourself an R rating.
3. Motherfucker: See above. Simply a variation on the same theme.
4. Cocksucker: This one makes the upper echelon because of the explicitness of the sexual act being referenced.
5. Shit: It certainly happens.
6. Piss: A bodily function, but not usually a sexual act unless you're into that kind of thing.
7. Tits: I'm not even sure I would consider this a swear word at this point. Rude and a bit vulgar, sure. But that's about all.

That's the key for me. If the character didn't swear on the original show, they either shouldn't swear on the new show or movie or they should be in a situation they never found themselves in on the original show.

Most of the swearing came from characters we hadn't met in previous iterations of Star Trek. When it came to Picard himself, there is a difference between the man in uniform and a man who has been discontentedly retired for years. I get the sense that in uniform Picard held himself to a higher standard of personal conduct than he does now. He's also dealing with characters that are a lot rougher around the edges than he dealt with back then, because the Alpha Quadrant is a much more unsettled place than it was back then.

As for Seven of Nine, she's a lot more human than she was during her run on "Voyager" -- she's had another two decades of living as an individual rather than as a drone. She's also been through some shit and seen some shit since then.

I don't completely disagree, but I do think Picard faced plenty that were equal or worse than he does in this series even factoring that he's in forced retirement and disgruntled.

There's no way what he's facing here so far is actually significantly worse/harder than what he faced w/ The Borg, particularly by First Contact. They could easily have allowed him an F word or maybe even two and still remained PG-13. And if not him, surely some other Star Fleet officers. And of course, since it wasn't TV, they had the option to even go to an R rating, but of course, they chose not.

I just don't see it as being in synch w/ so much that came before.

People can simply say they want this change because they feel they want and can now, but it really doesn't actually fit what came before. IF they really wanted it to fit, they probably could've tried going for more satisfying narrative approach toward that, but they didn't bother to -- heck, they surely could've gone that way w/ the reboot-of-sorts movies, but didn't (significantly). They also didn't w/ Discovery. Just accept that conceit and move on me thinks...

_Man_

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

So now this is about continuity? If that was so very important, we’d all be discounting the franchise based on the second episode of TOS.

It's not just "now". That was the main thrust behind it being brought up AFAIK -- some found it a jarring change, not necessarily because of a bit of profanity. It certainly was my point all along (even though I probably don't find it quite as jarring nor detracting as some others).

I understand I probably didn't make perfectly clear, but I don't have any problem at all w/ profanity in movies and shows as long as it makes sense w/in context -- and I don't think any other dissenters here have a general problem w/ that either. And sure, I might agree this level of "salty" is perfectly reasonable in another context, but not so much in the context of ST, particularly deeper into the future... although I could see it in the Discovery future starting from S3 due to the (near-)dystopian context.

As for that example of change from the TOS pilot, that's essentially completely inconsequential for plenty of reasons I'm sure you know full well...

_Man_