Star Trek films on Blu-Ray... what we know so far (1 Viewer)

[Ted Van Duyn]

I mentioned this earlier in the Ten Commendments Forum, but since this is Star Trek, I've decided to repost it here.

Director's Edition DVD

BluRay

Skin is naturally a bit green on both Vulcans and Humans, right?

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Originally Posted by FoxyMulder
My problem with Nemesis though is that they ignore the fact Lore ever existed, no mention is made of Data having had a "brother" called Lore, they make it seem like B4 is the first twin android Data or Picard has seen, at least thats how i remember it...Maybe i'm wrong as it's been a good few years since i watched it.

I really liked Nemesis the first time I saw it, and it's kind of been a case of diminishing returns with each subsequent viewing. I remember having the same feeling about Lore being mentioned; I'm OK with the movie not featuring Lore, but at the least, when they're discovering B4's body parts in the desert, I'm shocked that no one even wasted a breath saying, "Could this be Lore?" and answering why it wasn't very quickly. That was just a bit sloppy, I thought.

 

[Bryan Tuck]

Originally Posted by FoxyMulder
My problem with Nemesis though is that they ignore the fact Lore ever existed, no mention is made of Data having had a "brother" called Lore, they make it seem like B4 is the first twin android Data or Picard has seen, at least thats how i remember it...Maybe i'm wrong as it's been a good few years since i watched it.

It's not so much that they directly contradict anything, just that no one brings it up, and that's the problem. You'd think someone would have piped up when they started to assemble B4: "Anyone remember the last time we did this? It didn't turn out too well..."

This is kind of a dead horse, but that was my main problem with most of the Next Generation movies; there weren't that many direct continuity contradictions, but the characters seemed to develop amnesia about things that really should have had some bearing on their actions. The films are full of "Seriously-No-One-Thought-About-This?" moments that are frustrating for even casual fans. And it's not just the geek desire to "get the references;" we're talking about character threads that could have had a positive impact on the plots. Why not mention Lore (and Data's mother, for that matter); you'd need a few lines to get general audiences up to speed, but it could have made the B4 subplot a whole lot more interesting.

I know they were always concerned about making a movie that non-Trek fans would enjoy, but you don't want to do that at the expense of your core audience. If they don't go to it; it's doubtful anyone else will, either. Of course, by Nemesis, the longtime fans were about all they had left.

Anyway, back on topic, I remember it seeming like a minor miracle that The Motion Picture got a real director's cut at all. It would have been nice if they had just finished it on film back then, but that will almost certainly never happen now, so I do hope they at least re-do it for 1080.

 

[Joel Fontenot]

I'm with Nelson in remembering that a theatrical release of the TMP - DE was talked about for months leading up to the DVD release, but that it never happened. So a film print was never made. I think the decision to go with DVD 480 resolution is what killed the idea, but that info didn't get out until after the work was done. There was a "premier" party (complete with the actual 8-foot filming model of the Enterprise as a centerpiece on a table) for the DE release, but was just a video showing of the DVD itself. If I'm not mistaken, The Digital Bits was there and took pictures.

Being the one that mentioned the idea that the DE was sort of a sanctioned "fanboi" cut - I have to add that this wasn't a new thought - nor my own, really. I don't know how I really feel about it myself. I was on some of the Trek forums a lot more during the years prior to the DVD release and there was one member who was ecstatic about the upcoming release (he even personally sent me a screen cap of the CGI bridge-walk scene about 6 months before the actual release - so he knew someone on the inside). When it was released, he turned totally against it - calling it a hack job and what-not. Some of the arguments against it sounded plausible, others, not so much. It did help me to look at the DE more closely. Overall, I still do like the effort. But, as I said before, there are some editing choices that just bother me. Losing Kirk's second, louder, "viewer off" was one. Uhura was in a bit of shock at what just happened. As originally done, seemed natural and emotional enough. But there was lots of fan chatter years prior to this that they didn't like it. Losing it on the DE seemed like fan committee taking charge in that decision. Same with Kirk's "Oh my God" in the transporter malfunction scene. Again, I thought was perfect and natural as is. But reading forum comments about this scene way before the DVD was even considered, I read many comments saying people laughed at that in the theater. Although I did not experience that reaction when I saw it in the theater back in early January of 1980, and was extremely surprised that apparently other people actually thought it was a silly reaction for Kirk.

Don't get me started on the sound effects changes.

It's just that years worth of fan comments seemed to shape some of those editing changes that really didn't need to be done.

On the other hand, a lot of the added dialog near the end was an improvement. That's where the time was extended. Being actual story elements, it does help keep it from seeming like it gets long. Some of that ended up in the TV version, but redone nicely for the DE.

I would like to have the original mix available. I don't have the Blu-ray, so does it not have at least the original surround soundtrack? The widescreen laserdisc has some nice bass extensions in the soundtrack that the DVD is missing, although the LD could have used a little more upper-end eq'ing.

 

[Nelson Au]

Joel,

I was never on any of those Trek forums back then. As much as I love Star Trek, I'm not sure I'd want to be! I'm a member on one of the newer private Trek forums that focus on props, and while this one is well maintained and moderated, I can see they get testy!

One thing you said about the edits reminded me of something. My good friend went to see the very first showing of TMP in the Coronet Theater in San Francisco. He was sure the local film critics were there to review the film. He said one guy laughed when you see the close-up reaction shot of Kirk as he sees the Enterprise head on for the first time, that goofy look he has. That stuck with me all these years. So I always wondered if the added reflection of the Enterprise was done to cover his face a little. Perhaps Wise didn't like his expression on his face.

I had class that morning, I should have cut class!

I have the blu ray, Joel. But I don't recall if it has the original surround track. I'll have to check. When the laserdiscs came out, I got the Special Longer version. I always liked how the thunder clap sounds in the V'Ger chamber would crack in the rears on that Dolby track! "I want this JIm! As much as you wanted the Enterprise, I want this."

One thing I was disappointed by and I guess it was never filmed, if the scene with Admiral Nogura could have been inserted instead of that long shot of the orbiting station. That would have better shown how driven Kirk was. How dark he was as Wise said in the commentary.

 

[Osato]

Originally Posted by Joel Fontenot
I'm with Nelson in remembering that a theatrical release of the TMP - DE was talked about for months leading up to the DVD release, but that it never happened. So a film print was never made. I think the decision to go with DVD 480 resolution is what killed the idea, but that info didn't get out until after the work was done. There was a "premier" party (complete with the actual 8-foot filming model of the Enterprise as a centerpiece on a table) for the DE release, but was just a video showing of the DVD itself. If I'm not mistaken, The Digital Bits was there and took pictures.

Being the one that mentioned the idea that the DE was sort of a sanctioned "fanboi" cut - I have to add that this wasn't a new thought - nor my own, really. I don't know how I really feel about it myself. I was on some of the Trek forums a lot more during the years prior to the DVD release and there was one member who was ecstatic about the upcoming release (he even personally sent me a screen cap of the CGI bridge-walk scene about 6 months before the actual release - so he knew someone on the inside). When it was released, he turned totally against it - calling it a hack job and what-not. Some of the arguments against it sounded plausible, others, not so much. It did help me to look at the DE more closely. Overall, I still do like the effort. But, as I said before, there are some editing choices that just bother me. Losing Kirk's second, louder, "viewer off" was one. Uhura was in a bit of shock at what just happened. As originally done, seemed natural and emotional enough. But there was lots of fan chatter years prior to this that they didn't like it. Losing it on the DE seemed like fan committee taking charge in that decision. Same with Kirk's "Oh my God" in the transporter malfunction scene. Again, I thought was perfect and natural as is. But reading forum comments about this scene way before the DVD was even considered, I read many comments saying people laughed at that in the theater. Although I did not experience that reaction when I saw it in the theater back in early January of 1980, and was extremely surprised that apparently other people actually thought it was a silly reaction for Kirk.

Don't get me started on the sound effects changes.

It's just that years worth of fan comments seemed to shape some of those editing changes that really didn't need to be done.

On the other hand, a lot of the added dialog near the end was an improvement. That's where the time was extended. Being actual story elements, it does help keep it from seeming like it gets long. Some of that ended up in the TV version, but redone nicely for the DE.

I would like to have the original mix available. I don't have the Blu-ray, so does it not have at least the original surround soundtrack? The widescreen laserdisc has some nice bass extensions in the soundtrack that the DVD is missing, although the LD could have used a little more upper-end eq'ing.

Thanks for the post and thoughts.

I do believe that the film was never originally edited, so some of the lines of dialogue that were in the original film were most likely intended to be cut. I recall Star Trek.com running many articles with Robert Wise being interviewed about the project and it's either there or in the documentary where they discuss the fact that some of the lines or visuals were placeholders in case things were not finished...

I also believe that Robert Wise did intend to edit the film before theatrical release and was not allowed too. The special effects that were updated for the DE were storyboarded but again they were out of time to finish things. It had to be released.

I think again, the best move at this point is to release both versions. As well as maybe the video version?

On the audio for the TMP blu ray, English 7.1 Dolby True HD, French 2.0 Dolby Surround and Spanish mono. Great question. I had actually never looked to see if the original English mix was included.

 

[Osato]

Wow.. Ok I stand corrected. It appears that all of the articles about the Director's Cut that were on Startrek.com have been removed!!! Very sad.

There was quite a few of them about the project on the site. I really wish I had copied and pasted them into a document to save. I do have a few other magazines from the time TMP DE was released and will see if I come across anything interesting.

I wonder if Paramount pulled the TMP DE articles for a specific reason?

I did find a few random video clips..

Unused trailer for Star Trek The Motion Picture Director's Cut...

http://www.startrek.com/watch_video/unused-teaser-trailer-ncc-1701

alternative scene from the DE..

http://www.startrek.com/watch_video/tmp-de-outtake-rack-focus-kirk

Unused effects shot:
http://www.startrek.com/watch_video/unused-fx-shot-vgers-fireballs-over-earth

A couple of more TMP videos on the Director's Cut here:
http://www.startrek.com/videos/documentaries/all/clips/title

 

[cafink]

Have you tried digging up some of those articles via the Wayback Machine? I'm not sure exactly where on the site to look, but they have a bunch of older versions of the site archived, maybe you can find some of those articles on the Director's Edition there.

 

[Osato]

Originally Posted by cafink /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Have you tried digging up some of those articles via the Wayback Machine? I'm not sure exactly where on the site to look, but they have a bunch of older versions of the site archived, maybe you can find some of those articles on the Director's Edition there.

Thanks for the tip!

The making of the DE feature on the DE DVD is pretty much all about the new effects shots. Really nothing about editing changes..

I did locate the following which is also included in the TMP DE DVD insert...




A Sub-Space Communication from the Director...



It isn't often that an artist gets to revisit an old work, and ordinarily, I wouldn't consider it. Art, and especially film, which is an inherently collaborative medium, is not created in a vacuum. Rather, it results from a combination of forces and personalities, coupled with limitations of time, budget, and technology, which all converge in a way that is unique to a moment in time. Gene Roddenberry seemed to understand concepts like this, and he also believed, ifSTAR TREK is to be accepted as a mirror of his imagination, that time travel would one day be a reality. My experience in creating "The Director's Edition" of STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE has come closer to that reality than I ever imagined.



STAR TREK was a prestigious film for Paramount Pictures, and their support was unswerving. Unfortunately, even they couldn't stop the clock from ticking, and as we began to assess the ambitious technological breakthroughs we were attempting, we gradually realized that it was going to be a race. Thanks to a dedicated cast and crew who worked far beyond the call of duty, we survived the chaos of our final weeks and delivered a movie on the date promised...December 7, 1979. We had removed several key dialog scenes in order to accommodate our incoming effects work, but no time remained to work on properly balancing these two components.



Thanks once again to Paramount's support, we have been able to complete the film as "The Director's Edition." In addition to finding a new, and I feel, proper editorial balance for the film, we have also completed those effects shots and scenes which we had to abort in 1979, and have given the film a proper final sound mix. It has been an opportunity which I never believed would happen, and one for which I am grateful beyond words. Gene Roddenberry was right... time travel IS possible.





- Robert Wise



I'm sure the audio commentary may have more to say as well about editing and dialogue changes. That will take a bit more time though.

 

[Osato]

I recall in addition to the editing, the music and sounds mix was not finished properly. I believe the new sound elements that were used in the DE were actually still in the Paramount vaults from the making of the film. Again there was not time to finish. I'll look for more info on this as well.

Did a bit of reading on the DE cut and here are some quotes from Robert Wise about making TMP and the DE cut:



Finishing the Movie - Star Trek magazine Dec 2001, page 13

No Time For Reflection

However the new arrangement posed Bob Wise and his editor Todd Ramsay with a problem. Although the effects were spectacular, they were only completed toward the end of schedule. As a consequence Bob never had the chance to cut them into the movie, and then sit back and take a look at the film as a whole. In fact, the last effects sequence was completed only days before the premiere, which was the first time Bob saw the movie with an audience; normally, Bob would have attended a sneak preview, and then gone back to the edit suite and fine-tuned the movie to make sure that everything was perfect. On Star Trek: The Motion Picture he never got that chance. Given this, it's not surprising that the critics didn't love the movie.
The film was a success by any standards; it took more than $100 million at the box office, and was the second highest grossing film of the year. Even more importantly, it paved the way for the STAR TREK movies that followed. But Bob knew that what was released was not the best movie he could have made, so when David C. Fein and Michael Mattesino approached him to suggest that they could complete the movie the way he had always wanted, he gave them his blessing. The result is the Director's Edition.


Robert Wise Behind the scenes Star Trek magazine December 2001. Page 17

...I needed to cut around a lot of missing effects on STAR TREK, so here it was marvelous to have all of that extra footage. It was [still] very, very difficult because we had to take a guess at how long effects shots were going to be when we cut them into the film."
The difficulties could have been resolved if the post production was somehow extended, but the way the deal with the movie chains had been struck, meant this was impossible.
"We had this problem that we had to have the print ready for the premiere in Washington, D.C. We took a strong stab at it and we got just enough effects that we needed; only a few short days before my trip to Washington. [But] I just think that I hadn't had a chance to get all of the final work I wanted to do with it - particularly the special effects and even the mix of the music and the sound effects. I had to rush it so much to get it back to Washington for that premiere that I hadn't had a chance to refine all of that."


"The showing of STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE in Washington was almost like our first and only preview. So when I finally saw it, I noticed a number of things that I would have like to have trimmed and changed, which is normal for a preview screening. But because this wasn't a preview, and it was the world premiere, the studio wouldn't let me do it."
The inability to complete the editing process left Bob feeling uncomfortable, and he says that for a long time it affected the way he looked at the movie. "It was very unsatisfactory to have to rush the whole process. It's the only film I've made, and I've made 40 now, where I didn't have the opportunity to have a proper preview to know how it worked or played. Or perhaps I've only had one - the released - the longest preview in film history! I have been so accustomed to using the sneak preview to try the film out with an audience that I felt adrift when I didn't get that opportunity on STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE. I was unhappy at the time because I knew the film could be improved in editing. I think there were things that could have been done that would have helped the film and I'm glad to have the chance to do them now... 20 years later."
....
"I didn't want to talk about it [the movie] much, and I kinda got down on the picture because of all the difficulties." Bob says, "I started thinking it wasn't a very good picture somehow, and then when I saw it again in the theater before the 'Director's Edition,' I thought it was a damn good picture and was surprised that I had been so down on it. I guess it was because I had so many problems in the making of it. But it's a damned good film, and one that I'm even more proud of because of the final changes we made to it as the 'Director's Edition.' I'm really proud of the film, and especially the work of everyone who worked on the film 20 years ago, and my outstanding team today.

 

[Osato]

Originally Posted by cafink
Have you tried digging up some of those articles via the Wayback Machine? I'm not sure exactly where on the site to look, but they have a bunch of older versions of the site archived, maybe you can find some of those articles on the Director's Edition there.

Here we go! This is the Q and A with Robert Wise. Some great questions and quotes.

Thank you cafink!!!!

http://replay.web.archive.org/20080602223555/http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/community/chat/archive/transcript/4256.html

Here is the information on the sound mix and elements that were created in 1979, but not used until the DE DVD mix.



Q: Hi Mr. Wise. I love the new DVD, it's fantastic — the new sound mix really engaged me. My question is, what were your impressions and input about updating the original sound track from the audio system of the time to 5.1-channel surround sound that is standard today? Did you have any input on the new sound track?
Paul M.

RW: David, Michael, and I had many discussions about what we wanted to do with the 5.1 sound mix. We really didn't have an opportunity to complete the sound mix originally, because the sound editors can't work until the picture element is finalized, and the minute it was finished it went to the lab to have prints struck. The designers created a whole library of sound effects, and all of that material was still available. So I didn't have to pick and choose every little sound, but David and Mike played sequences for me as they were finished, in some cases giving me one or two other choices. Sound plays a very pivotal part of any motion picture, and we knew that it would be necessary to update the sound mix to help carry the story and flow of the picture. I believe that it was at least fifty percent sound that helped the film gain a 'PG' rating over its original 'unthreatening' 'G'.

 

[Nelson Au]

Thanks for finding those interviews. Great to revisit them again.
This Way Back machine thing looks interesting.

 

[Osato]

On the DE DVD commentary of TMP, Robert Wise briefly discusses finishing the sound mix for the DE using the original 1979 elements that were created for the film. Again due to time constraints the sound mix was incomplete for TMP when released in 1979.

Chapter 12 around the 37 minute mark or so if you are interested in hearing Wise comment on this.

The audio commentary on the DE DVD is very good. Wise also does talk about changes in dialogue for the DE and other pacing and scene editing throughout the track as well.

It's been a while since I've really sat down and watched this version and I'm really enjoying it. I didn't remember all of the changes! The film does seem a bit more polished and seems to also move a bit better as well.

 

[Cinescott]

I recently purchased the region-free Blu-ray for TMP, which I believe is the same disc as was released in the US in the boxed set. The quality is very good. The soundtrack is pretty magnificent in 7.1 Dolby HD. It's actually nice to have the TE on Blu-ray and I'll keep my DC DVD until they release a Blu-ray of that, which may be a while. Also, the BR has an audio commentary by the Occudas (sp?) which I have yet to listen to.

The effects in HD hold up very well. For those who think they're outdated, they're just plain wrong. There are a few edges that seem "unfinished," but in general there is a wonderful suspension of disbelief in TMP. As expected, the grain increases during the process shots, but all the live action has a magnificent color palette and is very sharp.

The existing Blu-ray does not have the Wise commentary, so I'll hang onto the DVD for that and the DE edits and scenes.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I think the effects hold up very well - I agree with Scott, they looked stunning on the Blu-ray. I also really enjoyed the commentary on the disc; the people doing it obviously knew Star Trek well, but were also capable of saying, there are a few things that aren't perfect about this movie. They teased the film a little bit, but it was obviously done with love.

In addition to the commentary on the DE, there was an MP3 commentary track (and instructions for how to sync it) that was posted for free on the Star Trek site with the tech people who worked on that DVD. I thought it was a good companion to what's on the disc, and gave some additional insight into what it was like to go back to an older film and recut parts of it. With the commentary on the disc focusing on people who were part of the original production, it was great to hear a commentary by the people who worked on the new version. I'm not sure if it's still there but it must be somewhere on the internet - it's a great listen and I'd definitely recommend it to anyone who enjoyed the DE. (And even though I have some issues with the DE that I've mentioned here already, I still really enjoyed it as an "alternate" version of the film.)

 

[Douglas Monce]

On the whole I would say the effects are very well done. But the optical work was clearly done as a rush job. LOTS of fluttering matte lines around ships and other objects. I would like to see them go back to the original elements, and re-composite them digitally. You can also see a difference in the grain between the shots that were done by Trumble's group, and those done by Dykstra. A digital re-composite would likely correct most of that also.

Doug

 

[Cinescott]

Originally Posted by Josh Steinberg
I think the effects hold up very well - I agree with Scott, they looked stunning on the Blu-ray. I also really enjoyed the commentary on the disc; the people doing it obviously knew Star Trek well, but were also capable of saying, there are a few things that aren't perfect about this movie. They teased the film a little bit, but it was obviously done with love.

In addition to the commentary on the DE, there was an MP3 commentary track (and instructions for how to sync it) that was posted for free on the Star Trek site with the tech people who worked on that DVD. I thought it was a good companion to what's on the disc, and gave some additional insight into what it was like to go back to an older film and recut parts of it. With the commentary on the disc focusing on people who were part of the original production, it was great to hear a commentary by the people who worked on the new version. I'm not sure if it's still there but it must be somewhere on the internet - it's a great listen and I'd definitely recommend it to anyone who enjoyed the DE. (And even though I have some issues with the DE that I've mentioned here already, I still really enjoyed it as an "alternate" version of the film.)

Josh, I found the commentary track online. Thanks for the heads up

 

[Joel Fontenot]

Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
On the whole I would say the effects are very well done. But the optical work was clearly done as a rush job. LOTS of fluttering matte lines around ships and other objects. I would like to see them go back to the original elements, and re-composite them digitally. You can also see a difference in the grain between the shots that were done by Trumble's group, and those done by Dykstra. A digital re-composite would likely correct most of that also.

Doug

As I understand it, Dykstra's Apogee was subcontracted by Trumbull and they worked together to finish the work that was originally started by Robert Able and Associates.

 

[Douglas Monce]

Originally Posted by Joel Fontenot

As I understand it, Dykstra's Apogee was subcontracted by Trumbull and they worked together to finish the work that was originally started by Robert Able and Associates.

Able and Associates never actually go to the photography stage. They did build the model of the Enterprise.

The main issue with the combination of Dystra's work and that of Trumbull is that Dystra's team was shooting VistaVision, and Trumbull's was shooting 65mm. Often they were composting 65mm shots of the ship, on top of VistaVision shots of the Viger backgrounds. For some reason these shots are exhibit more grain than those that are Vista on Vista or 65 on 65.

Doug

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I wonder how much of the original elements survive, that is, the individual layers that were composited to make the finished film. I think you're right that recomposited effects would solve what problems there are, but I wonder how much of that stuff still exists. I remember reading years ago that, for example, when they were making Star Trek II, Trumbull's group refused to share any of their techniques or tips with the them infant ILM to do that film. Obviously that's a different circumstance, but I wonder if all these years later, if the original stuff even survives. (Even if it doesn't, I bet with all of the digital techniques that they have today that a lot of the issues could be eliminated today with a lot of painstaking care. Frankly, I can't imagine Paramount being willing to spend that kind of money on Star Trek: The Motion Picture. I mean, Paramount wasn't initially interested in spending the money to restore The Godfather, and that's a movie that's gotten them far more awards and made far more money than the first Star Trek film ever did for them. What we have now may be the best it ever gets.

Personally, I would just love to see a pristine print of The Motion Picture in 35mm on a big screen in a great theater known for outstanding presentation quality. That in and of itself would be mindblowing since I've never had the chance to see it on the big screen.

(By the way.. I'm a lot more forgiving of technical flaws in older special effects than I am for newer films -- the fluttering matte lines, which have always been visible to my eye, that kind of thing, to me has a certain charm that makes it forgivable in a way that bad CGI isn't. I'm generally way more impressed by the kind of effects done in The Motion Picture than I am in the latest superhero movie or whatever. There's something I can appreciate and maybe just my brain perceives on a different level when I know that people actually built models, figured out which lenses to shoot them with and with what film stocks and camera systems, at what speeds, and all that stuff. They still feel more "real" to me. I don't know if that's fair to newer films, but that's how I feel. Actually, in terms of digital effects, I really felt that the new Star Trek movie had some of the most impressive digital effects I've ever seen. In that movie, everything seemed "real" to me in a way most digital stuff doesn't. My guess is that comes from the combination of using anamorphic lenses, which isn't done too much anymore, and building all of the imperfections and quirks of those lenses into the effects shots. I know a lot of people didn't love the shaky-cam approach to some of the scenes, all the lens flairs, that kind of thing, but the way it was evenly applied to both the live action and special effects footage made it all seamless to me in a way that most CGI isn't. As good as the Avatar effects were, I thought Star Trek deserved the visual effects Academy Award that year.)