Paramount+ Star Trek: Discovery - Official Thread (3 Viewers)

[Josh Steinberg]

I am kinda sorta looking forward to Discovery’s eventual return.

But this talk of recasting Spock makes me long even more for new Trek that isn’t a prequel and isn’t a reboot, that builds on what’s come before but isn’t beholden to fitting between previously explored time periods. I want a Trek show that takes place after DS9/Voyager/Spock Prime’s “destruction of Romulus” appearance in Trek ‘09.

Not that that’s anything new from me

 

[johnnybear]

Discovery is obviously in another universe or reality! In the TOS universe Mark Lenard plays Sarek and Leonard Nimoy is Spock and Jeffrey Hunter is Pike! If it ain't these three guys it ain't the TOS reality!
JB

 

[johnnybear]

It's definitely Prime Universe. Legally-speaking, CBS couldn't set this show in the Kelvin Timeline without Bad Robot's authorization, and they aren't involved in the production in any capacity, here. And yup -- it does look like Number One takes temporary command of the Enterprise while Pike is aboard Discovery. One of the things that "The Cage" took great pains to establish back in 1964 was that Number One was a supremely-competent and talented officer in her own right (similar to, in many deliberate ways, William Riker -- indeed, Roddenberry basically transplanted many of Number One's unrealized characteristics into Riker when TNG was first developed), and would be every bit as capable of assuming command of the ship in the event that Pike is elsewhere for whatever reason.

It doesn't have to be the Kelvin universe! Could just be another unnamed one? But whatever, it sure ain't the TOS one whatever the suits are trying to lay on us!
JB

 

[joshEH]

Discovery is obviously in another universe or reality! In the TOS universe Mark Lenard plays Sarek and Leonard Nimoy is Spock and Jeffrey Hunter is Pike! If it ain't these three guys it ain't the TOS reality!
JB

Nope, this couldn't possibly be more incorrect. The actors have absolutely nothing to do with this. Since Spock Prime instantly recognized the younger Chris Pine as "Jim Kirk" in the 2009 film despite a real-world difference in "resemblance" from the Jim Kirk he knew, in-universe, that establishes that there was no difference in resemblance. The actors are different, but the character in-universe wasn't. It's like how Dick York Darren Stevens didn't actually look different from Dick Sargent Darren Stevens to Samantha. Or how someone that recognized Sean Connery James Bond would still recognize Timothy Dalton James Bond or Daniel Craig James Bond.

It's no different than Kirk instantly recognizing Sarek in Star Trek V, even though it wasn't Mark Lenard. Or the hologram of T'Pau in VOY: "Darkling" not looking like Celia Lovsky, but still looking like T'Pau to the people in-universe. Or them swapping Saavik's actor from Kirstie Alley to Robin Curtis. Or them swapping Admiral Owen Paris's actor from Warren Munson to Richard Herd. And how does one explain the no less than three different Ziyal-actresses on DS9?

The same reason we know "Space Seed" and The Wrath of Khan didn't take place in alternate universes, despite the contradictions between them -- because it would be pretty pointless if they did. The whole, entire reason for bringing back a familiar actor and character is to draw on their established history and the audience's identification with them. The entire point of including Leonard Nimoy in the 2009 film was to provide a connection from the old continuity to the new, to establish the new continuity as a direct continuation of what had come before, instead of something separate.

I mean, think about it. If Spock Prime wasn't meant to be the same character from the same universe -- and Zachary Quinto his "younger" self -- there would've been no reason to include him in the movie at all, no reason to throw all that time travel and alternate-reality stuff into a story about how Kirk and the Enterprise crew first came together.

 

[Greg.K]

I am kinda sorta looking forward to Discovery’s eventual return.

But this talk of recasting Spock makes me long even more for new Trek that isn’t a prequel and isn’t a reboot, that builds on what’s come before but isn’t beholden to fitting between previously explored time periods. I want a Trek show that takes place after DS9/Voyager/Spock Prime’s “destruction of Romulus” appearance in Trek ‘09.

Not that that’s anything new from me

The show Patrick Stewart has reportedly signed on to sounds like what you are looking for.

The one nice thing about putting these on streaming service is that there are any number of shows they could do and not have to worry about finding a time slot for them, like with Netflix and their Marvel universe shows.

 

[johnnybear]

Nope, this couldn't possibly be more incorrect. The actors have absolutely nothing to do with this. Since Spock Prime instantly recognized the younger Chris Pine as "Jim Kirk" in the 2009 film despite a real-world difference in "resemblance" from the Jim Kirk he knew, in-universe, that establishes that there was no difference in resemblance. The actors are different, but the character in-universe wasn't. It's like how Dick York Darren Stevens didn't actually look different from Dick Sargent Darren Stevens to Samantha. Or how someone that recognized Sean Connery James Bond would still recognize Timothy Dalton James Bond or Daniel Craig James Bond.

It's no different than Kirk instantly recognizing Sarek in Star Trek V, even though it wasn't Mark Lenard. Or the hologram of T'Pau in VOY: "Darkling" not looking like Celia Lovsky, but still looking like T'Pau to the people in-universe. Or them swapping Saavik's actor from Kirstie Alley to Robin Curtis. Or them swapping Admiral Owen Paris's actor from Warren Munson to Richard Herd. And how does one explain the no less than three different Ziyal-actresses on DS9?

The same reason we know "Space Seed" and The Wrath of Khan didn't take place in alternate universes, despite the contradictions between them -- because it would be pretty pointless if they did. The whole, entire reason for bringing back a familiar actor and character is to draw on their established history and the audience's identification with them. The entire point of including Leonard Nimoy in the 2009 film was to provide a connection from the old continuity to the new, to establish the new continuity as a direct continuation of what had come before, instead of something separate.

I mean, think about it. If Spock Prime wasn't meant to be the same character from the same universe -- and Zachary Quinto his "younger" self -- there would've been no reason to include him in the movie at all, no reason to throw all that time travel and alternate-reality stuff into a story about how Kirk and the Enterprise crew first came together.

I get your drift but in house that explanation is okay only when referring to the Kelvin reality! Old Spock somehow recognizes a young Kirk in the ice caves but now that he is a part of that reality as well we see things through him, agreed? But if the Discovery universe is the same as TOS as we are told then why are the characters totally different looking and dressed very much atypical of the original series style?
JB

 

[Nelson Au]

I see Josh has already posted a great way to argue Discovery is the Prime Universe. I have no evidence yet to think it isnot the Prime Universe.

On a similar note, my feeling is this is like Dr. Who. Not a series I’ve ever watched, but I know they replaced the actor who plays him. Or like Janes Bond.

I feel like the new Star Trek productions are like those who are taking on a Shakespeare play with new performers and set dressing and a more modern interpretation.

It’s even like the guys who are doing the Star Trek Continues fan films. They just want to do new Star Trek with the TOS crew. The fourth season in their case.

In that regard, I can see where the producers of Star Trek Enterprise and Star Trek Discovery are going. Maybe they felt there wasn’t any new ground to cover after Voyager. They know there are other crews and ships during the earlier years of the Federation before TOS. They felt there’s ground there that could be explored. Plus it might be fun to see some familiar faces along the way. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, it’s what I think they want to do.

Plus maybe they are tapping into the most popular or well known characters of the series. The TOS characters.

If this is real Star Trek and it’s good, then it can be whatever era they want. I do want it to be good and true to the original. But I realize they have to appeal to the new audience. So the earlier era of Star Trek won’t be depicted as it was in 1966. But a modern interpretation. I think Gene Roddenberry would be OK with that. I remember a radio interview with him from the 1970’s where he hoped if future generations make Star Trek, they make it better.

 

[Nelson Au]

John are you expected cgi models used to recreate the likeness of Jeffrey Hunter? Then a young Leonard Nimoy from the Cage era?

 

[joshEH]

I get your drift but in house that explanation is okay only when referring to the Kelvin reality! Old Spock somehow recognizes a young Kirk in the ice caves but now that he is a part of that reality as well we see things through him, agreed? But if the Discovery universe is the same as TOS as we are told then why are the characters totally different looking and dressed very much atypical of the original series style?
JB

Because artistic reinterpretations are part of every long-running franchise going back decades. Star Trek has always redesigned itself. As fans, we often tend to get so fixated on the details of design that we forget that fiction is all about story, character, and theme. The design elements are merely in support of those. Think of it like different productions of Shakespeare that use different set and costume designs, even modernizing the setting while keeping the original words intact.

It's been made clear that the show is consistent with the events of TOS, and is set in the Prime continuity. They've merely changed the look of certain things. It's illegitimate to treat those as equivalent. If a new production of a Shakespeare play updates the costume and set designs, that does not constitute rewriting the play. Those are two different categories of change. Discovery is simply changing the style of the Prime universe, not the substance.

But these things can still be rationalized. Maybe we've been wrong to assume that all of Starfleet uses only one uniform style throughout the entire service during the TOS era. Maybe different divisions have different looks. Indeed, as we canonically see onscreen in TNG, DS9, and VOY, different postings often use different uniforms during the exact same timeframe -- the crew of the Enterprise-D wearing one uniform-type while the crew of DS9 is concurrently wearing a completely different type of duty uniform during the period spanned by TNG seasons 6-7 (with the Ent-D crew then blending the two uniforms starting in 2371).

It's best not to be too rigid about the details from the TOS pilots and early episodes of that series back from when they were making things up as they went, and feeling their way from a rough draft of the universe to a more refined version. After all, the producers themselves didn't hesitate to abandon a lot of their early, rough ideas -- "James R. Kirk," "Vulcanians," "lithium crystals," "UESPA," etc.

 

[johnnybear]

There was no war between the Federation or the Klingons in the TOS reality! The closest they came was in Errand of Mercy and how do you explain the look of the Prune headed Klingons in an era when they should be Mongol/Asiatic pirate types?
JB

 

[johnnybear]

John are you expected cgi models used to recreate the likeness of Jeffrey Hunter? Then a young Leonard Nimoy from the Cage era?

If the technology was improved from the Uncanny Valley then I'd be a lot happier with that, Nels!
JB

 

[johnnybear]

I've always deemed the James R. Kirk as maybe a school joke by Gary Mitchell while I can forgive slips by the writers of Lithium crystals as being a lesser type of crystal compatible with the engines but not as good as Dilythium ones while UESPA as a way to fool the pilot of the jet from the twentieth century, Captain john Christopher! Vulcanians could also be a type of racist slur used by people who are not too fond of the Vulcan race! There you are, solved in but a few clicks!
JB

 

[johnnybear]

Why don't the producers set their show after Voyager? Any conflict with the Klingons, Romulans, Kelvans could be written and not challenged! The look of the show, it's technology and style would also be their own idea and not up for debate! Just because we are told it's prime, doesn't mean we have to accept it is or even that it really is!!! Cloaking technology was the discovery of the Romulans primarily as seen in Balance of Terror but these writers don't care about the history and continuity of the earlier shows so why should we care about their product?
JB

 

[joshEH]

Why don't the producers set their show after Voyager? Any conflict with the Klingons, Romulans, Kelvans could be written and not challenged! The look of the show, it's technology and style would also be their own idea and not up for debate! Just because we are told it's prime, doesn't mean we have to accept it is or even that it really is!!! Cloaking technology was the discovery of the Romulans primarily as seen in Balance of Terror but these writers don't care about the history and continuity of the earlier shows so why should we care about their product?
JB

Nope, that was never actually stated onscreen in "Balance of Terror" -- and remember too that Kirk's crew instantly knew what cloaking technology was when they encountered the Romulan ship in that episode, which therefore establishes that it had been encountered elsewhere previously at some point in Starfleet's history.

There have been many instances in Trek history where cloaking devices have been "new," or where a breakthrough in cloaking-penetration has seemed to disappear later on. The Suliban, Xyrillians, and Romulans had cloaks on Enterprise. Klingon cloaks could be spotted by visual distortion in The Search for Spock, but not in The Undiscovered Country. Spock found a way to detect them by engine-emissions in TUC, but that was lost by TNG. And then there are the Mirror Klingons, who had cloaks in DS9's "Crossover," but not in "The Emperor's New Cloak."

The logical explanation for all of it is that cloaking is not a single technology, but multiple different ones. There's an ongoing arms-race between stealth and detection, and each time a way is invented to penetrate a given type of cloak, it becomes obsolete, and cloaking has to be "invented" all over again.

A lot of ENT's supposed "contradictions" were actually just inconsistent with widely-believed, debunked, extracanonical fan-assumptions, like the myth about Spock being the first Vulcan in Starfleet. And of course TOS contradicted its own continuity dozens of times, since it was making up its whole universe as it went along. TOS contradicted TOS far more often than ENT contradicted TOS.

I've always deemed the James R. Kirk as maybe a school joke by Gary Mitchell while I can forgive slips by the writers of Lithium crystals as being a lesser type of crystal compatible with the engines but not as good as Dilythium ones while UESPA as a way to fool the pilot of the jet from the twentieth century, Captain john Christopher! Vulcanians could also be a type of racist slur used by people who are not too fond of the Vulcan race! There you are, solved in but a few clicks!
JB

Yep, the "James R. Kirk"-bit was retconned by Michael Jan Friedman in his My Brother's Keeper TOS novel trilogy pretty much as you describe it (as an Academy-era joke between two friends). UESPA was fully recanonized during the fourth season of Enterprise (following some brief "Easter-egg" nods in VOY: "Friendship One" and Star Trek: Generations), with the United Earth Space Probe Agency being the forerunner to Starfleet (which apparently still had some vestigial presence in the Federation even into the 23rd Century):

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/United_Earth_Space_Probe_Agency

Regarding "Vulcanian," we got a slight homage to it many years later in VOY: "Unimatrix Zero" (Tuvok's birthplace of the Vulcanis Lunar Colony), which fits well with those TOS season-one references to "Vulcanians."

In the early episodes of TOS, the original implication was that Spock looked different from a full Vulcan. In "Mudd's Women," Harry Mudd concluded on sight that Spock was "part-Vulcanian" (which was the first time Spock's species was actually named, when viewing the show in production-order), which further suggests that he looked more human than a full-Vulcan would. But that idea was dropped by the time we got to "Balance of Terror," since the Romulans needed to look exactly like Spock so that Stiles could suspect him of being a spy.

I suppose that, after that, they could've still had proper Vulcans look more "alien" (since Romulans were described as an offshoot-species), but probably what put paid to that for good was the fact that the first time we saw Vulcans other than Spock was in "Amok Time," which required a whole bunch of them, so a more elaborate alien makeup than just prosthetic ears would've been pretty cost-prohibitive.

 

[Neil Middlemiss]

^ That. Every word of that!

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I think it's absolutely fair to not like Discovery. I don't think anyone can say whether a person's taste is "right" or "wrong" if they don't care for it.

But it's a fact that Discovery is in the Prime universe. The copyright holders and creators of the work are saying that it is, and whether or not one likes the show, the fact is that the people who own the copyright have the absolute authority to determine which sandbox that work is playing in. I can say that to me, Discovery often doesn't feel like Star Trek, but I can't say that it's not Star Trek because it quite obviously is.

 

[johnnybear]

Whatever they say, Josh, it can't be! Plus the cloaking device is a Romulan invention and I don't acknowledge ENT for the same reasons I don't like DSC! ENT was the result of a future conflict which changed time and events set after that point may have altered enough to explain the differences between ENT, DSC and TOS! Proving that if this is the prime universe then TOS no longer exists as we have known it!
JB

 

[RobertR]

Nope, that was never actually stated onscreen in "Balance of Terror" -- and remember too that Kirk's crew instantly knew what cloaking technology was when they encountered the Romulan ship in that episode, which therefore establishes that it had been encountered elsewhere previously at some point in Starfleet's history.

The dialogue in the episode doesn't support what you're saying. Yes, the Federation people figured out the obvious, that the Romulans were able to cloak, but it wasn't "instantly" recognized as such:

KIRK: Can you locate the intruder for us?
HANSEN [OC]: Negative. It seems to have disappeared somehow.

Why would he say "seems to" and use the term "somehow" if cloaking had been previously encountered and he "instantly knew what cloaking technology was"?

KIRK: Go to full magnification.
SULU: Screen is on full mag, sir.
KIRK: I don't see anything. I can't understand it.
SPOCK: Invisibility is theoretically possible, Captain, with selective bending of light. But the power cost is enormous.
They may have solved that problem.

Kirk says he doesn't understand it, and Spock says invisibility is theoretically possible, both of which make it obvious it was never actually previously encountered in reality.

 

[Josh Dial]

Whatever they say, Josh, it can't be! Plus the cloaking device is a Romulan invention and I don't acknowledge ENT for the same reasons I don't like DSC! ENT was the result of a future conflict which changed time and events set after that point may have altered enough to explain the differences between ENT, DSC and TOS! Proving that if this is the prime universe then TOS no longer exists as we have known it!

[emphasis added]

Frankly, this is delusional.

 

[johnnybear]

[emphasis added]

Frankly, this is delusional.

Not if you understand the intricacies of the history of the original series and how these new writers are trying to override it with their own deluded versions!
JB