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Discussion in 'TV Shows' started by David S. Peterson, Nov 2, 2015.
Nacelle struts look quite a bit different and closer to the movie-era ship with the swept back design than TOS. But all in all it looks really good, definitely better to me than the JJ-Prise.
What explanation was that?
BTW, according to EW, Latif (Tyler) is still part of the show, while Issac (Lorca) is not.
I'm through the season. The first three or four episodes were among my favorite "Trek" ever; luscious production design and cinematography, and a number of story beats in quick succession that completely upended my expectations. The middle section of the season felt like pretty standard "Trek" with better production values. Then my interest perked up again in the home stretch.
I didn't care for the finale at all. The climactic moment was right: the mutineer who kicked off this war by elevating pragmatism over Starfleet ideals choosing to embrace Starfleet ideals even if doing so risked the utter destruction of the Federation. But the solution was too quick and too tidy, not set up well enough, and not executed well. I didn't believe that the Klingons would believe that one of their own would destroy the planet. And I didn't believe that reunifying the Klingon Empire under the threat of Kronos's destruction would necessarily end hostilities with the Klingons. I liked what they were going for, I just didn't like how it was executed.
Didn't care for the final act at all. After a season where the show did an admirable job of standing on its own two feet, bringing in the Pike-era Enterprise felt like an unnecessary bit of fan service that undermined this show's principal of boldly going where no "Trek" show had gone before.
I don't mind them waiting until the second season premiere to reveal the new captain. While Burnham will presumably continue to be the central character of the show, the captain is a major player and I'd rather the writers and casting people take the time to get it right.
Now that her rank has been reinstated, is Burnham the Discovery's new First Officer or is that still Saru? And if it's still Saru, what exactly is her role on the ship now?
The big hanging thread: Going into Season 2, the spore drive technology is intact and there is an entire moon now releasing spores to use as fuel. It'll be interesting to see what explanation they come up with for why all ships don't have jump capability by the TNG era.
The rule that always made sense to me is: If a Universal Translator is present, have the character speak English. If a Universal Translator is not present, subtitle the alien language.
I went and compared it to the original model and the CG model of the Prime Enterprise from the Abrams movies. It's much, much closer to the former than the latter:
I don't know that you could get much more faithful with a model that holds up to the scrutiny of 4K rendering. When the audience has more visual information available, it wants those to be filled with things to look at. The ring cut out of the nacelles, the more complex rear of the body, and the more complex attachment of the saucer to the neck all feel like they're serving that function.
It's also ten years before the original series, so it's possible those elements on the Enterprise get streamlined between now and the debut of the series.
The Pike-era Enterprise also had needles sticking out of the front of the nacelles.
It's canon that the ship underwent a major refit between the Pike and Kirk eras. That could easily account for the changes like the nacelle struts (good eye, Greg!) and the saucer strut, which also looks a tad different.
In any event, the Discovery's Enterprise is most definitely a Constitution class ship. I agree with you: it's about as close as you can get given the overall look "update."
Edit to address Sam's post (post 1666): did the "official" model have those needles? I don't recall.
Can never figure out why shows cannot properly pace out their season arcs. Talked about a rushed finale.
The symmetry of Burnam's 'mutinies' was awkward to say the least. (On a side note, I never bought her original 'mutiny' because she was acting on the situation in a manner based on Sarek's advice. Something that was totally ignored.) So we get a finale that is rushed where the conflicts were more molehills than mountains with very little tension.
That last shot was intriguing, to say the least, and will definitely get me to watch the next season. Mark me down as one that found this version of the Enterprise aesthetically pleasing. Much better than the horrid design used for the Defiant - a later version of a Constitution class in this universe.
If they did that, people would subscribe, bing watch the series, unsubscribe. CBS All Access has very little to offer besides Discovery. We wouldn't be subscribing to it all if not for Discovery.
A big thumbs up here. Agree totally.
There's one thing that's really bothered me about the series. The Klingons are a reprehensible culture. Barbaric and extremely cruel. They come off being worse then many of the radical groups (I won't name them) of today.
But in ST it seems to me they are more barbaric and crude than cruel. Their atrocities are fewer. How do we get from the Discovery Klingons to the TNG Klingons?
When does the next season premiere? I'm thinking of cancelling my subscription until then.
I had a second watch tonight of the finale, Will You Take My Hand.
I still liked it and agree it was more the kind of Star Trek resolution you’d be surprised by; Kirk not killing the Gorn, or realizing the monster is really the mother to an entire race. Could it have been done more smoothly, maybe. Was it abrupt, I’m not sure. They had the idea to use Tyler as a source of Intel that helped them get to the target in the Orion City. That was a smart use of the character. I liked the more modern use of make up for the Orion people. It was less garish then they did for Vina. But I don’t think the way Vina was a bad, it was what they could do in 1964. Yet the new Orion’s are very faithful to the original. I’m listening to Star Trek The Cage soundtrack now, seems so appropriate. And the world they painted on that Orion City gave new imagery to consider when Pike said he considered leaving Starfleet to be a trader on one of the Orion Colonies.
Burnham sideways communicator holding was very modern. I loved Tilly’s Reaction to realizing that Captain Georgiou was really the Emperor.
Admiral Cornwell seemed bent on that plan to destroy all life supporting elements on Qo’nos. No doubt Georgiou convinced her it was the best plan. So it was interesting that Burnham’s argument won her over. It seemed too easy for her to back down wasn’t it? But did she have a choice? Discovery was hanging inside Qu’nos and was the only ship there in place that could do anything to the Klingons. She was stuck and had to consider Burnham’s plan. It must have taken some doing to allow Georgiou to escape free and clear. Unless they somehow planted a homing device on her. And then to allow L’Rell to go and be the one to push the plan onto the Klingons. It was sort of like the speech Kirk gave Mirror Spock. One man can make the difference and he had the Tantalus Field to back him up. So L’Rell has her Tantalus Field. My guess is someone will kill her next season and take over.
When Tyler and L’Rell beam out, it was such an appropriate move for both characters to go out together.
When the Enterprise shows up, Burnham and Sarek give each other a knowing look. What was that? They knew Spock was on board? Or did they know something else we will learn about next season?
Regarding my comment that the new Enterprise was revisionist. I meant it in the most literal sense of the word; advocating a policy of revision and modification. Promoting a revised attitude to a previously accepted situation or point of view. I do think the new model of the Enterprise is very faithful to the original and agree it’s much better then the JJ-prise. A lot better, did I say a lot better? Better. What I meant about revision is the notion that in order to make the ship more acceptable to a modern audience, they felt the need to add cladding and hull plating that’s more in line to the feature film refit Enterprise. At first look, my impression was it was the horrible Gabriel Köerner CGI model he did. He’s a fan who came to prominence when he was featured in the Denice Crosby film Trekkies. He made it to be a CGI artist working in films, so more power to him. He made it. I didn’t like his design for a new Enterprise. So I reacted with that image in my head as the new design sort of felt like Gabriel’s
After having another look, this new Enterprise we saw was a mash-up of TOS and TMP Enterprise. I think they wanted to bridge that gap. It’s very clear looking at the ship it’s both designs mixed together. The dorsal neck is The Motion Picture neck as well as the engine pylons. The ends of the nacelles also has a modern take on the original Cage Enterprise model where there is some detail on the end before they settled on the balls back there. There is that unfortunate need to make the viewscreen a window and it looked like it has that too. The impulse drive engines are much wider like the JJ-prise. They slightly changed the Starfleet pendant design on the secondary hull and engines. I get it, they need to modernize the model for the modern audience and it wasn’t bad. I took some grabs so I could study it closer.
By the way, I’ve seriously studied the Enterprise model. I know every millimeter of that ship. . Well, almost. So I’ve not heard that notion that Gene Roddenberry wanted to have the blue glow on the nacelles for the TOS ship. It’s obviously there in The Motion Picture.
Oh yeah, I watched closely during Burnham’s speech at Starfleet Academy. Those uniformed people behind her were quite blurred but the uniforms did bear a modern take on the original uniforms.
I forgot to add, I really liked the end titles music taking us out, a new arrangement of the Star Trek theme that felt very much like the original Cage theme music. Terrific.
Nelson, this is just about my feelings on the finale. I think there was opportunity for a little more excitement or tension than we got, but I am a sucker for peace winning the day so it felt right even though I would have enjoyed something a little more up tempo at times. And I love the Enterprise design in the show's tag. Looking forward to what they do with that. I read an interview snippet with Alex Kurtzman (it may have been a link posted in this thread, now that I think about it,) and I think they are doing things to rationalize the continuity and having the Enterprise show up would very much allow them to do that (but there are risks if they get it wrong). Still, I am looking forward to where this show goes next year.
I have no reason to keep CBS All Access while this show is off the air, so to speak. I think I will cancel until they add more content that I want to see, or Discovery comes back.
In that EW article, Alex Kurtzman said this:
Sounds like if/when we see the bridge of Pike's Enterprise, it's not going to look like we remember.
It's from an old (really old) art book I have kicking around somewhere, I think. Or a general production design book. I forget--but Gene did the forward if I recall, and noted that originally he wanted a blue glow on the inside of the nacelles, but was defeated by effects. Then, for The Motion Picture, he wanted to have a "beam" of blue light going between the nacelles to represent the source of the warp bubble. Once again he was defeated by effects (or lack thereof).
Certainly the many models of the Enterprise through the years have not had the needles. I could show you a picture of the ship in the Smithsonian and it is from the years of TOS.
No, only the Enterprise as seen in The Cage (and Where No Man...) had the needles -- but that should be the ship we see on Discovery.
Here is the remastered FX reel for The Cage, and the needles are visible at 0:53.
And what's more, you can see the needles in this FX reel of Where No Man Has Gone Before, at 0:50, and again at 1:25:
By the time of The Man Trap, they are gone.
You can see them several times in that 2nd reel outside the times you list - on both the original and remastered effects version. I found it interesting to see the effects played side-by-side. It reinforces that I like the original visual effects better, at least in this episode, and that the updated enterprise looks more plastic/fake than does the original.
The needles on the Bussard collectors do show up sporadically throughout the series. As most of you know, during the production of the first season the optical effects were crude and consumed much time. But the reality is that the effects houses were seriously behind as they were trying to figure out how to do them. So many of the early shots made for the first season reused a lot of shots from The Cage. The Mirror Enterprise has the needles. That seems fitting.
Here's the "beam" I was thinking of:
I think this is the scene to which this concept art corresponds:
Josh, I think I have that book! I recognize that image, Andy Probert’s work. I’ll try to remember to pull it from my shelf tonight. Thanks!
Edit: I do have the book and it does have that image. It’s The Art of Star Trek from 1997, so it’s not that old. . I haven’t tried to find the Roddenberry quote. Herman Zimmerman wrote the introduction to the book.
While rewatching the finale I noticed something interesting in Orion camp on Qo'noS (on the tent):
Perhaps next season the Romulans will be controlling the Klingons from behind the scenes.
We know that between now and the next Federation-Klingon War (ten years from now in 2267), the Klingons apparently become united in a rigid surveillance state with spies everywhere (see the TOS episode "Errand of Mercy"). This spy state fits fell with L'rell's House Mo'kai. It also fits well with the Romulans' history of secret interference.
What should we be seeing?