Paramount+ Star Trek: Discovery - Official Thread (2 Viewers)

[Blimpoy06]

This is why I brought up the millennials. Perhaps it's a trend to move away from intellectual and perhaps this is what they want to do to gain a newer younger audience.

I don't think anyone wants to be less intellectual in their writing and story telling. I think it is a matter of experience, or lack of it, before they begin their careers as writers. If you grew up watching TV, went to school and then intern on a writing staff, how much real world experience do you have to draw your characters and plot lines from? I've watched the same movies and TV shows these writers have. I can see the influence. And I'm tired of being told by the writers how the next episode of Discovery will be on the same scale as "XYZ" show of TOS. I want them to move further away from what we've all seen. Do more of what hasn't happened before, not your version of a story we all know the outcome of with the Klingons. I keep reading about people that are liking and responding to the emotional story in Discovery. I don't see it. Or maybe what others see as emotional I see as unprofessional. This is supposed to be a war after all, isn't it?

 

[Ric Easton]

I'm in agreement with everyone that says this would all work better if it was in the future. Another possibility would be that yes, this is 10 years before Kirk and Spock (at least the ones we know), but they are in one of those other alternate/parallel universes. Meaning that we have been watching another reality this whole time. Has anyone already suggested this? That could explain the different tech, uniform styles and even the Klingons. I was so hoping that maybe Stamets would have a montage of images running through his mind, a couple of which could have been Spock and Pike from "The Cage" and maybe an image of Kirk and Spock from the Abrams Universe.

 

[Carabimero]

The huge problem I see is a lack of true SF veteran writers on this staff to guide the young. TOS made a point of trying to hire the best writers in the field. And it showed. I feel like these writers should be working on THE YOUNG AND THE RESTLESS. To put this much obvious love and money into the production values, and then to settle for such lackluster writing talent makes this Star Trek fan very sad.

 

[Nelson Au]

I don’t mean to sound like I am giving this show a pass for less then smart writing. I’m not sure I’ve seen the shows or films that has influenced these new writers. So I’m not sure if I’m seeing the influence. What shows and films are you referring to?

I want to see Star Trek done well and get back to the glory days. But I also wonder if that is even possible. I don’t like the Abrams’ Kelvin Universe Star Trek. The audience has changed and the new people in charge have their own ideas. I don’t have cable but I’ve seen Mad Men and the reimagined Galactica on blu ray after its seasons have aired. Mad Men was one of my favorites, the new Galactica was good too. I’ve not see Game of Thrones and I’m not sure I want to. I’m about to buy Westworld. And I’m very curious to see A Handmaid’s Tale.

I did rewatch Into the Forest I Go this evening. I’ve seen the comments that it wasn’t smart that Burnham chose to find the humans on board the sarcophagus ship before completing the mission. In reviewing the episode, Tyler made it clear they had to focus on the mission first. I suppose that line was to cover them. But Burnham convinced Tyler to find the humans, she was battling her demons from the last time she was there with Captain Georgiou, she wasn’t going to leave anyone behind like she had to leave her captain. So I picked that urgent sense she had in this second viewing. I totally agree those sensors were big and made noise and light and called attention to themselves. The host of After Trek had a funny comment on that, he said the same thing and that a device with a Starfleet logo wasn’t smart to leave there, but he also rationalized it as they used what they had as they probably weren’t equipped for this kind of mission.

As far as Lorca sending Tyler over, maybe Lorca figured he was up to the task as his Chief of Security.

When Lorca is convincing Stamets to make the 132 jumps, they are looking at the star chart that Lorca has been developing from all the previous jumps the ship made, in the dialogue, Stamets definitely said there were even alternate universe they could travel to.

During the final jump sequence, I watched what Lorca did. He initiates the navigation controls and enters coordinates. If those were different to where Stamets thought they were going, it wasn’t clear. It looked to me that something went wrong and the jump wasn’t completed as Tilly said the jump wasn’t complete.

This just occurred to me, after Tyler wakes from his nightmare, Tyler heads to see L’Rell in the brig. as Tyler is kneeling before L’Rell, he’s asking her what she did to him. Then the black alert came on and he runs from the brig. Maybe Tyler sabotaged the Spore Drive because of L’Rell and whatever she did to him. In the flashback sequences, there is blood and cutting tools being used. Was something implanted into Tyler?

Finally during After Trek, they ask the audience in a poll what was L’Rell’s endgame, to take the Discovery or have Tyler back? Interesting result.

 

[Harry-N]

The show that was the game-changer for modern television was LOST, the ABC series that aired starting in 2004. It was the first to have split seasons, and its serialized nature had people discussing it over watercoolers and the Internet. It had "buzz", even if it was occasionally not the biggest ratings-getter.

Ever since then, TV producers and networks have been looking to recreate that kind of buzz, with only occasional success.

As we can see, this STAR TREK series is following some of the trends set by LOST. First off, we have mysterious lead characters about whom we want more background - background that will be filled in with future episodes. Then we have a serialized story - in LOST it was about the survivors living life on the island and trying to find a way off. In STAR TREK it's a war setting and perhaps a trip or two to an alternate universe.

Then there's the structure of two half-seasons with a mid-season finale that has everyone guessing about where it's going to go when it comes back - the cliff-hanger.

And yet, much of the criticism directed at LOST is that the "writers were making it up as they went along". I always found that amusing, because writers make EVERYTHING up - all the time. It's what they do. The only question is whether or not what they do is interesting to "you". And we are all individuals. Some of us will be satisfied and willing to go along on the journey, others will not, either becuase they genuinely dislike it, or are those who WANT to dislike it.

Count me as willing to take this journey. They've given me more to think about and ponder over than most series do. I find that waiting for a full week to see where it's going is a good wait. It gives me a chance to mull things over, to find common ground with people on this board and others, and with the streaming platform, to revisit the latest episode again if I want.

Looking forward to January 7th.

 

[TJPC]

I hope Discovery doesn’t follow Lost and also have one of the most disappointing ending in television history which makes you feel you were stupid for being a loyal viewer!

 

[Harry-N]

I hope Discovery doesn’t follow Lost and also have one of the most disappointing ending in television history which makes you feel you were stupid for being a loyal viewer!

LOST's ending was not disappointing to many of us.

 

[Yee-Ming]

And yet, much of the criticism directed at LOST is that the "writers were making it up as they went along". I always found that amusing, because writers make EVERYTHING up - all the time. It's what they do.

"...as they went along..." is the problem, not the "making it up" which by definition all fiction is.

Take for instance Babylon 5. J. Michael Straczyinski (sp?) claimed that he had the entire 5 season mapped out when he started, and seeing the final product I don't doubt him; even the problem that arose when during season 4, i.e. when he thought he wouldn't get a fifth season meant the major plot points were resolved by the end of S4, and when he did get S5, the first half of S5 really did feel long-drawn out, precisely because he had to fill time.

In contrast, with 'new' BSG, it is clear (from their own podcast commentaries) that the writers had not mapped everything out beforehand, even as to major questions as to who the remaining Cylons were. It somewhat showed in how haphazard it seemed, e.g. "let's make the most unlikely character possible a Cylon, just to shock the audience".

As for Disco, too soon to tell whether the writers already know where they're going, or if they're "making it up as they go along".

 

[Harry-N]

I didn't mean to start up the "lovers vs. haters" discussion of LOST, but wanted to point out how much of a TV game-changer that series was.

There hasn't been a new STAR TREK in the age of LOST until DISCOVERY.

 

[Mike Frezon]

I didn't mean to start up the "lovers vs. haters" discussion of LOST, but wanted to point out how much of a TV game-changer that series was.

There hasn't been a new STAR TREK in the age of LOST until DISCOVERY.

And that's a more than reasonable thought.

But, ain't it amazing how quickly topics can get sidetracked?

Let's not get LOST by heading down the wrong road, gang, and let's stay on the topic at hand.

 

[Harry-N]

Indeed.

 

[Hanson]

I fell a little behind, so this a week late.

Si Vis Pacem was my least favorite episode of the season. I t wasn’t bad, but it didn't have the propulsive pacing and density of information that Discovery usually has. It reminded me a lot of those slack, navel gazing episodes TNG would do, where it felt like they had this idea and it wasn’t enough to fill the hour. But the biggest disappointment I had was the violation of the “show don’t tell” rule with regards to Saru. Instead of showing how euphoric and addictive the experience was, they turned it into mere exposition, and explained after the fact to boot. So the entire story line was unsatisfying. While I think it was refreshing that he wasn’t being mind controlled, he assaulted a fellow officer and a fellow crew member, tried to imprison them on the planet, and subverted his orders and mission while essentially high on a narcotic. It makes the lack of any punishment problematic. There are no consequences for Saru here, and if all it took was some inner peace to make him turn his back on Starfleet, it doesn’t seem like he’s prime officer material, much less First Officer. This does, however, lead me to speculate that Kelpia is rife with drug abuse, full of a population of fearful beings looking to quell their inner demons. They never have explained the status of the planet's apex predators. Are they still around? Did they die out and the Kelpiens took over?

I thought the idea of threat ganglia was interesting and cool -- an extrasensory threat assessment, kind of like a spider sense. But in practice, it just pops up in the middle of conversation here and there. They haven't consistently or successfully integrated it into the show.

Am I correct that the Pahvans teleported Tyler to the transmitter? It looked that way to me. Perhaps they have their own mini mycelial network on Pahvo.

 

[Greg.K]

Meet Doug Jones, One Of The Biggest Movie Stars You’ve Probably Never Seen

https://www.buzzfeed.com/adambvary/doug-jones-star-trek-discovery-the-shape-of-water

 

[BobO'Link]

^Cool article. I never knew he'd done so many "odd" characters in movies I've seen.

 

[Hanson]

Into the Forest capped the midseason in fine fashion, getting back to the dense plotting and propulsive pacing after the slight detour of Si Vis Pacem.

I am also convinced that Lorca’s “let’s go home” comment implied he changed course in order to make it back to his dimensional reality. But judging by his reaction, I think they ended up even somewhere else. We’ll see.

In line with the “acroL” theory, I interpreted Starfleet’s awarding of the Legion of Honor as bait to get Lorca off of Discovery. I’m sure Cornwell told Starfleet he had to be removed after getting back to base. But Lorca saw through it and knew he only had one chance to jump back to where he came from. Buttering up Stamets with the award made it easier to convince him of one last jump.

I think the Voq=Tyler theory is still happening, but I hope they find a way to work around it. The depiction of PTSD was so strong that the show is past a point of return in revealing Tyler as Voq without undoing a huge accomplishment. You can’t be lauded for portraying PTSD convincingly and then turn around and go, “psyche!”. Besides, it’s such an open secret now that it would be a huge anticlimactic letdown if they made that reveal. I’m not sure how much of second half is in the can, but I hope the writers started veering away from Voq=Tyler when it because too obvious by the time of Choose Your Pain. Plus, Shazad Latif is so good as Tyler, and AshBurn is such a great couple that it would be a shame to lose that character. I'm not sure what they're going to do with the broken timeline, where Tyler has mentioned 7 months with L'Rell, but she was on the Sarcophagus for 6 months and the prison ship for only one month.

Without true night and day and the fact that AshBurn were sleeping before the last jump, an unknown number of hours transpired between Lorca’s last conversation with Starfleet and the last jump. The reason that’s important? Because Lorca promised they would transmit the cloak-revealing algorithm in "under 11 hours". By the time of the last jump, they never confirmed Starfleet received the it. Basically, if they weren’t able to transmit it in time, then Discovery is gone and they can’t get past the cloaking device, and The Federation are screwed 10 ways to Sunday. Well, sort of. Because you can beam aboard a Klingon ship in a window between de-cloaking and shields up. While Discovery’s mission to survey the cloaking field for imperfections meant they needed to beam in a 2 person team, any other starship in the front line should be able to beam an armed photon torpedo aboard during the same window, something we’ve already seen work in episode 2. So... yeah. I don't know why they're losing.

Lorca puts drops in his eye as the Sarcophagus is about to go critical. That’s so he can watch it go boom without discomfort. Because he is bloodthirsty as fuck.

According to After Trek, they originally proposed 525,800 spore drive jumps as reference to the musical Rent, which starred Anthony Rapp (Stamets) on Broadway, and Wilson Cruz (Culber) in the touring version. 525,800 jumps at one jump per second is 6 days, so whether it was that math or the sheer impracticality of depicting 525,800 jumps, the writers went with 133 jumps, with the 33 being an homage to a BSG episode. They did sneak in a Rent reference anyway – Stamets tells Culber he will take him to a Kasseelian opera house to see La Bohéme. Rent is based on La Bohéme.

I wonder if Fuller was still running the show, Kol would be holding, not Georgiou's badge, but her denuded skull. The "pick my teeth with" alludes to her fate as an entree, although Kol himself did not eat her.

If there are any Defiance fans in the house, Admiral Terral is played by Conrad Coates, who played T'evgin in season 3. The purple alien with the daughter.

 

[Harry-N]

I believe all episodes for the first season are in the can. On the very first AFTER TREK, it was kind of indicated that they were just finishing the finale and Michelle Yeoh was still there in Canada.

 

[Hanson]

I hope the Tyler situation ends up zigging instead of zagging or vice versa.

I heard that the midseason break was not for shooting, but for the VFX guys to catch up. It didn't dawn on me that implied shooting was wrapped up.

 

[Nelson Au]

I did not think Lorca is a Mirror Lorca trying to get back to his universe. I think he changed course simply to avoid getting back to Starfleet and losing his ship at the hands of Cornwell.

My take is Stamets wasn’t able to complete the jump or more likely, Tyler sabotaged the drive. L’Rell has some kind of hold on him.

 

[TJPC]

Into the Forest capped the midseason in fine fashion, getting back to the dense plotting and propulsive pacing after the slight detour of Si Vis Pacem.

I am also convinced that Lorca’s “let’s go home” comment implied he changed course in order to make it back to his dimensional reality. But judging by his reaction, I think they ended up even somewhere else. We’ll see.

In line with the “acroL” theory, I interpreted Starfleet’s awarding of the Legion of Honor as bait to get Lorca off of Discovery. I’m sure Cornwell told Starfleet he had to be removed after getting back to base. But Lorca saw through it and knew he only had one chance to jump back to where he came from. Buttering up Stamets with the award made it easier to convince him of one last jump.

I think the Voq=Tyler theory is still happening, but I hope they find a way to work around it. The depiction of PTSD was so strong that the show is past a point of return in revealing Tyler as Voq without undoing a huge accomplishment. You can’t be lauded for portraying PTSD convincingly and then turn around and go, “psyche!”. Besides, it’s such an open secret now that it would be a huge anticlimactic letdown if they made that reveal. I’m not sure how much of second half is in the can, but I hope the writers started veering away from Voq=Tyler when it because too obvious by the time of Choose Your Pain. Plus, Shazad Latif is so good as Tyler, and AshBurn is such a great couple that it would be a shame to lose that character. I'm not sure what they're going to do with the broken timeline, where Tyler has mentioned 7 months with L'Rell, but she was on the Sarcophagus for 6 months and the prison ship for only one month.

Without true night and day and the fact that AshBurn were sleeping before the last jump, an unknown number of hours transpired between Lorca’s last conversation with Starfleet and the last jump. The reason that’s important? Because Lorca promised they would transmit the cloak-revealing algorithm in "under 11 hours". By the time of the last jump, they never confirmed Starfleet received the it. Basically, if they weren’t able to transmit it in time, then Discovery is gone and they can’t get past the cloaking device, and The Federation are screwed 10 ways to Sunday. Well, sort of. Because you can beam aboard a Klingon ship in a window between de-cloaking and shields up. While Discovery’s mission to survey the cloaking field for imperfections meant they needed to beam in a 2 person team, any other starship in the front line should be able to beam an armed photon torpedo aboard during the same window, something we’ve already seen work in episode 2. So... yeah. I don't know why they're losing.

Lorca puts drops in his eye as the Sarcophagus is about to go critical. That’s so he can watch it go boom without discomfort. Because he is bloodthirsty as fuck.

According to After Trek, they originally proposed 525,800 spore drive jumps as reference to the musical Rent, which starred Anthony Rapp (Stamets) on Broadway, and Wilson Cruz (Culber) in the touring version. 525,800 jumps at one jump per second is 6 days, so whether it was that math or the sheer impracticality of depicting 525,800 jumps, the writers went with 133 jumps, with the 33 being an homage to a BSG episode. They did sneak in a Rent reference anyway – Stamets tells Culber he will take him to a Kasseelian opera house to see La Bohéme. Rent is based on La Bohéme.

I wonder if Fuller was still running the show, Kol would be holding, not Georgiou's badge, but her denuded skull. The "pick my teeth with" alludes to her fate as an entree, although Kol himself did not eat her.

If there are any Defiance fans in the house, Admiral Terral is played by Conrad Coates, who played T'evgin in season 3. The purple alien with the daughter.

Song in Rent: The number of minutes in the year = 525600 min.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I'm sorry, but I just see no evidence within the show itself to suggest that Lorca is from the mirror universe, or that Tyler is someone other than Tyler. I don't think it's suggested anywhere in plain reading of the text, or rather, a viewing of the show.

One of my criticisms about the show before it started was that it seemed like it was going to be too dark and not feel like Trek. Though it doesn't always feel like what I've come to expect Star Trek to feel like, there's a lot of stuff I do like, and Lorca is one of my favorite things about the show. I like the idea of having a captain who is damaged goods but still possibly the best man for that particular job. I'd almost label him as being "compassionately ruthless" - the story he tells about blowing up his former ship to spare the crew torture at the hands of the Klingons, while escaping rather than going down with it, falls under both headings. I don't know if he's "likeable" but I think he's fascinating. I think it would make his character, and the show, less interesting if he's merely a bad guy because he comes from the mirror universe where everyone is bad. I think it's much more interesting that he's a guy who was raised in an almost utopian society, who was then confronted by the harsh reality of war, and who is trying to come to terms with it all. He's someone who used to have a soul, and who lost it along the way... and I think he knows this, and perhaps a part of him wishes and hopes that he can get it back one day. I think he's being genuine when he talks to different crew members, particularly Stemets, about wanting to finish the damn war so they can go back to doing what they signed up to do.

If you do rewatch the final episode, though, I think there are hints that Stamets himself might have set the ship going in a different direction. He sees Lorca and volunteers for a jump that they really don't need to make - it's already been established that it's only a three hour warp time from where they're heading, and we know that warp, not spore jumps, are still their primary method of transportation. Then, he makes a big show of an emotional talk with the the Doc before engaging the spore drive, the kind of talk one has when they know they're about to die or maybe not come home again. If Stamets was confident that there was no danger and that this would be their last jump, I don't think he would have been as emotional in that moment. I think he's been changing as a result of his relationship to the spores, and whether or not he's fully conscious of it, something in him was compelled to go somewhere else. As an audience member, those scenes clearly play out in a "this isn't going to go as you planned" vibe to it that was clearly conveyed. I'm not 100% convinced that Stamets knew what he was doing, but I wouldn't be shocked if it was more than just an accident or injury.