Paramount+ Star Trek: Discovery - Official Thread (1 Viewer)

[jayembee]

Let me make sure I understand the cause of the burn. It happened because a (kelpian) child got emotional on a planet full of dilithium?

Pretty much. It helped (under certain values of "help") that Sa'Kul's DNA was altered by so much exposure (both in utero and ex utero) to that much dilithium that he developed something like a sympathetic vibration to the dilithium. So his emotional turmoil causes an atomic excitation in the dilithium. Now, how that reaction reaches across light years of space is another question (transwarp tunnels, perhaps?).

Sounds like skiffy physics, but Trek is full of that and always has been.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

Of course, when your are dealing with stupid concepts, like a non-warp ship being able to travel as fast as a spore-drive to a secret, very, very remote location, then it doesn't matter who is in the chair. The writers decided that Discovery was going to be taken and F-logic.

I mean Discovery left Federation HQ a few hours ago, while at the same time, Osyraa was at the Kelpian homeward. But hey, magic enemy ships are gonna do what they do.

Osyraa's ship is warp-capable. One of the things that has allowed the Chain to become a regional power is that it possesses dilithium and the risk-tolerance to use it. That being said, even a warp-capable ship isn't as fast as a spore drive. But it took a while for Osyraa to reach Discovery and launch her attack; one gets the sense that Discovery had been there for, at minimum, several hours by the time she arrived. If she is able to somehow determine the destination of spore drive jumps, or if she has a mole in the Federation, it seems plausible that she could get there in time.

It seems pretty clear that the attack on the Kelpian homeworld was a feint to keep the rest of Starfleet distracted so that Discovery could be isolated.

Except that we still have no real hard onscreen information yet as to where the Federation HQ, the Kelpien-homeworld, and the Verubin Nebula are each located relative to one another -- it stands to reason that they would all be in fairly close proximity (along with the Emerald Chain) if Admiral Vance could quickly send reinforcements between the various sectors without spore-drive capability.

Given that Starfleet either doesn't have access to dilithium, or its supply is severely rationed, it makes sense that the Federation's remaining sphere of influence would be geographically compact.

However, in "Die Trying" it was stated that the Kelpians left the Federation because Kaminar was too far out of range from Federation HQ. So it doesn't really make sense that any ship other than Discovery would be able to mount a rapid response to any situation that arose there.

I didn't really get the point of the holo-whatever changing the away team to be different species, considering they changed one to be human and the other two from human. But it was fun to see Doug Jones play Saru without the makeup.

My understanding was that the ship's protocols didn't know who would be arriving to rescue Su'Kal, so it had a handful of holodisguises ready to go that would be compatible with Su'Kal's limited experience. Presumably the three holodisguises were assigned randomly when Saru, Burnham, and Culber beamed aboard.

 

[Nelson Au]

I read the Trekmovie review of the episode and it reminded me that Osyraa likely used the transwarp conduit to reach Discovery so fast. And IIRC, Book mentioned couriers used them. when I do my second viewing of the episode, I’ll be listening for that again.

 

[joshEH]

Jerry, I agree, the source of the Burn was definitely unexpected! I was thinking of that line in The Motion Picture; “your child is having a tantrum”.

And Su'Kal's abilities are something that is consistent with previous onscreen Star Trek (to be sure, the "dangerous powerful child" was a tired trope even by TOS season three), and I still found it preferable to some of the alternatives. It will depend on how it is resolved. But I do think the dangerous child is a trope that is interesting to revisit. I mean, there are always going to be tropes to had in Trek. Tropes are part of the classical storytelling-toolbox, going back centuries. And I don't object to tropes if they're used in the service of a good story.

This is one that I think is really in line with the TOS spirit of a wide-open, dangerous galaxy filled with possibility. That type of possibility is something I find so adventurous, trope or not. Mileage obviously varies, but I really would hope that the wonder and magic of possibility isn't missed because it feels unsatisfying. We'll see how this gets further developed in the next two weeks, here.

While that chain of circumstances is definitely there, I think it's a stretch to say that it's Burnham's "fault". You could just as easily take the chain farther back and suggest that it's Burnham's mother's fault, because if it wasn't for her, Burnham would never have become the Red Angel, and so on and so forth.

Coincidentally, my original post actually mentioned Burnham's mother in it too (as a potential longer-scale cause with her suit), but I ended up deleting that piece of it just for brevity's sake.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

DISCUSSION AHEAD (AND POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR):
3x12 - "There Is A Tide..."​

Jonathan Frakes was a good choice to direct this episode, since he already had experience telling the story of a ship being boarded and taken over from when he directed First Contact. They're deceptively difficult stories to get right, because they involve a lot of different characters in a lot of different locations, and the audience needs to be able to keep straight the goals and stakes of every group of characters. That was never a problem with this episode.

The reveal of Osyraa's goal was a lot more interesting than I suspected going into this episode. I had figured that she had some sort of vendetta against the Federation, and wanted to burn it down. Instead, she came to Admiral Vance with a very Star Trek-esque solution to their conflict: An armistice within a framework for the eventual peaceful integration of the socialist Federation with the capitalist Emerald Chain.

The scenes with Vance and Osyraa sitting across from each other were really compelling stuff. First, because Osyraa allowed herself to be so transparent, when television writing nowadays so rarely is. Second, because it was our first real opportunity to see Admiral Vance outside of the context of being Discovery's superior officer. It's been an open question up until now how much of what we've seen from him has been a performance to keep the only Federation ship with a spore drive in line and on his side. Mostly, who he has been to Discovery is who he is to Osyraa. One thing did stand out to me: The conspicuous absence of the Federation President, and the way Vance danced around that fact. I am not at all convinced that the United Federation of Planets still has a civilian government. I would not be surprised if Vance, as the fleet admiral of Starfleet, is running the Federation as a military junta.

The scene where Burnham ejects Stamets from Discovery was brutal. I do think the episode needed a better argument for why getting Stamets off of Discovery was the only viable play. I get Burnham's logic: The spore drive doesn't work without Stamets, so taking Stamets off the board takes away the thing that makes Discovery so special. But if they had just jumped back to the nebula, it seems like it would have taken the Emerald Chain hours to catch up. That would have given them quite a bit of breathing room to retake the ship.

It was really great that the show created a role for Kenneth Mitchell to accommodate the limitations brought on by his ALS diagnosis, given his history with the franchise. And he was really terrific as Aurellio.

It seems pretty clear that the Vulcans and Romulans are going to come to Discovery's rescue in the finale, no?

 

[Nelson Au]

Die Hard on the Discovery! I saw that more then First Contact. Watching the Ready Room segment, Wheaton and Frakes do discuss the similarities.

Adam, great post. I agree that the scenes between Vance and Osyraa were compelling and unexpected. Then the real truth comes out.

I’m not so sure the Vulcans and Romulans will be coming along to help. It might be a red herring. We’ll see. I’m thinking Tilly will lead the bridge crew to a successful fight and with help from the Sphere and Burnham.

I had no idea that Kenneth Mitchell has ALS. With all the make-up, I would never have known he played Kol and Kol-Sha and Tenavik. So his face was unfamiliar as Aurellio. As Aurellio he is so different from a Klingon Warrior.

 

[Sam Favate]

I thought this was one of the better installments this season. It was compelling and showed more of the crew.

 

[jayembee]

Die Hard on the Discovery! I saw that more then First Contact. Watching the Ready Room segment, Wheaton and Frakes do discuss the similarities.

I was thinking the TNG episode "Starship Mine". On the other hand, the difference between that and the episode at hand -- as well as Die Hard and the episode at hand -- is that Die Hard and "Starship Mine" had a lone hero against a crew of bad guys. In that respect, First Contact is actually a better match.

At first, I was suspecting that Ossyra had the psychopathy that would allow her to lie undetectably. My wife pointed out, though, that she has seemed to be too emotional to do that effectively. But we both figured that what she was proposing was genuine, but was for the fulfillment of a greater purpose: to put the Chain in a position where they could eventually "take over" the Federation.

I also have the suspicion that Adam suggested: that there is no Federation President, and that Vance is completely running the show.

And I have to give props to Tilly. She doesn't seem to have been fazed by her having "lost" to Ossyra, even after Zareh's stinging comments.

We, too, didn't know that Kenneth Mitchell (my wife and I always recognize him as playing Skeet Ulrich's brother in Jericho) had ALS. My wife had wondered why he was chair-bound in this episode -- mostly from the perspective of what the point was with respect to the story at hand, thinking that 32nd Century medical science should be advanced enough (at least, it seems to be) to "cure" any (or most any) disease or disability. We're happy that he was given the opportunity to continue acting. A damn pernicious disease.

 

[Jason_V]

I also have the suspicion that Adam suggested: that their is no Federation President, and that Vance is completely running the show.

That went though my mind too. The other possibility is that the president is someone we’ve already seen or know and they’re just waiting for the finale to launch the surprise.

 

[Nelson Au]

I was thinking the TNG episode "Starship Mine". On the other hand, the difference between that and the episode at hand -- as well as Die Hard and the episode at hand -- is that Die Hard and "Starship Mine" had a lone hero against a crew of bad guys. In that respect, First Contact is actually a better match.

And don’t forget Macrocosm from Voyager.

I had another thought that I didn’t mention before. When watching the TNG era Star Trek that includes DS9 and Voyager, there’s a distinct look to those shows due to the production designer of that era. I think the production design team on Discovery is very good. They have their own aesthetic and potentially more funding for sets and props. I really like the look of the ships interiors. So I thought the design of the Jefferies Tubes looked kind of like a throw back to the 90’s era Star Trek. And i don’t like those new programable matter phasers! That’s probably the biggest design misstep to me. Of course I’ll admit that I’m a huge TOS phaser fan and the original Discovery phasers was a nice interpretation of that and the Cage laser combined. But I know this is just a minor cosmetic issue.

 

[jayembee]

And don’t forget Macrocosm from Voyager.

I do my best to forget Voyager.

 

[Tino]

I do my best to forget Voyager.

Poor voyager. I loved that show.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

Poor voyager. I loved that show.

Having rewatched it not too long ago, there was a lot to like. It's just that the missteps were so big that they crowded out the good stuff in people's memories. The biggest issue being that it was a really excellent premise but failed to take full advantage of it.

 

[Nelson Au]

I rewatched There is a Tide and there was a scene I thought was definitely an homage to Die Hard. After Burnham blew the airlock to defeat the regulator, she lost her shoes. And then she called Hans to tell him he better get some more bad guys.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

DISCUSSION AHEAD (AND POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR):
3x13 - "That Hope Is You, Part 2"​

It wasn't a perfect finale, but there was a whole lot to like, and I'm really exciting for the fourth season it sets up, with a premise that really gets back to Star Trek's core ethos of exploration, tolerance, and progress through collaboration.

Putting Burnham in the captain's chair takes away one of the things that made "Discovery" stand out, which is that its protagonist wasn't the ship's captain. But there's little question that she earned the promotion with her actions in the finale.

Learning that Saru was leaving Discovery at the end of the season also helps explain some of the story choices that were headscratchers at the time. I had thought this season was about Saru coming into his own as captain. Instead, the real journey was about putting Burnham through the experiences that would prepare her to be an effective captain in this new time period. Making Tilly the First Officer before she was ready was a way to create an opportunity for Michael to swoop in and save the day. It was also a way to season Tilly a bit, so that she'd be a more mature and experienced officer for whatever her role on Discovery is going forward. Failure is a good teacher.

My cynical predictions about the Federation didn't amount to anything, and to honest I'm happier that they didn't. Whatever issues there are with what remains of the Federation's senior leadership, it seems clear that Vance is committed to the ideals and mission of the Federation as we know it from the 23rd and 24th centuries. It's also nice to have top brass that is competent, pragmatic, and flexible. It seems like on the earlier shows, the only time we ever saw Admirals was to provide someone for the captain to chafe against; often they were overly rigid in their adherence to Federation law, and out of touch with what's actually going on along the starry frontier. Vance feels like he deserves to have the top job, and Oded Fehr is great in the role.

The fight in, outside, and above the turbolift was a really exciting action setpiece, but the show's desire to have such immensity of scale really strained credibility; I simply don't believe that any starship, much less a starship the size of Discovery, would have so much empty wasted space. That being said, it was nice to be reminded that turbolifts aren't simply elevators that go up and down.

I appreciated that when it became clear that there was no alternative, Burnham (and by extension the show) wasn't afraid to shoot Osyraa dead. She was a decent villain, but as long as she lived she would have been a threat.

Aurellio's discovery that certain empaths could operate the spore drive felt like an organic and earned development. It means that there are still significant barriers to mass production and implementation of the spore drive technology, but this vital strategic resource is no longer bound up with one single individual. Going into Season 4, Discovery is still very special, but the future of its mode of transportation is no longer a dead end.

In some ways, the resolution of the story aboard the Khi'eth with Su'Kal felt like a cop out; here is a character who is basically an atomic bomb, and the entire galaxy is within the blast radius. Culber being able to defuse the bomb with some vague technobabble didn't seem like a solution commensurate with the scope of the problem.

But, as I said, I really enjoyed how it ended. Discovery being utilized as essentially a dilithium delivery service is a story engine that it allows it to visit worlds that the Federation hasn't been in contact with in quite some time, and lots of worlds that probably hadn't even been discovered yet when Discovery jumped forward in time. And because everybody had been cut off from each other for more than a century, it means the worlds Discovery visits won't feel so homogeneous; they will each likely have dealt with the consequences of being isolated in very different ways.

And I like that the final scene ended with the Discovery bridge crew all wearing the 32nd century Starfleet uniforms; they're really in the fold now and part of the organization instead of this strange little outlier. Plus, the new uniforms are really cool, while I've never been a fan of the uniforms that were introduced in the first season.

It looks like the colors are: red (command), blue (sciences), yellow (operations), and white (medical). Adira has been commissioned as an officer; Book has not. Only the captain has the shoulder bars with the rank pips; the less senior ranks only the have the pips on the command badges. So it's hard to see whether anybody else has been promoted. Tilly is the only member of the bridge crew wearing a blue uniform; has she taken Burnham's place as Discovery's science officer? Burnham is the only one with a red uniform, so it's not clear who (if anyone) is her executive officer. The rest of the bridge crew (Detmer, Rhys, Owosekun, Bryce, Nilsson, and Ina) are wearing yellow operations uniforms. Reno is also wearing a yellow uniform; as a commander and the second most senior-ranking officer, she is presumably the ship's chief engineer now. Stamets and Adira are both in sciences blue. Given how prominent a few of the bridge crew have been this season, I wonder if any of them will be promoted to series regulars.

 

[Sam Favate]

It was a pretty good finale. Some things bothered me: the huge space that the turbo lifts open into is absurd. We’ve seen turbo lift shafts in TOS and TNG and they were cramped spaces. This was dumb. Also, many scenes opened with the camera upside down, only to flip around. It’s distracting and I hate those kind of flourishes. Honestly, the writing could be better. I love that the writers love and respect Star Trek, but much of the writing has gaping plot holes. Overall, it was a better season than the first, but nowhere near the heights of the second.

 

[TJPC]

We have largely enjoyed this season, but the wandering around in the holo world with the radiation and lost kelpian, made this last episode seem endless. I was very very tempted to press the old ff button, to get to the scenes on Discovery.

 

[Nelson Au]

I think Adam pretty much covered everything. I liked the finale too. The bad guys got what they deserved. Lots of action and some good fights. The evil Empire is destroyed.

I agree with the criticisms that the interior of the mechanical spaces of the ship is way too big. This ship itself isn’t that big. It’s JJ thinking.

I like how Vance was able to see the value of Burnham doing things her way. So it ended the way I expected, he approved of her actions, and felt she was Captain material and that she was long overdue for the promotion.

By the way, there was that slight facial motion when Burnham and Stamats look at each other at the end when Stamets and Adira and Culber are together. I thought there was a distinct sense of latent anger from Stamets directed to Burnham. And she reacted to it. And I imagine when the series returns for the forth season, the ship would have have been out on missions for some time, so Saru will have had enough time off to come back. But in what role I wonder.

i can’t say I like the new uniforms. I didn’t notice the different colors for each division, so I’ll rewatch it and take more notice! But those color divisions on those crew members makes sense. Tilly was stronger in the sciences division, so that makes sense she’s blue. I think one of the things I dislike about the uniforms is they feel a bit Star Warsy. Sort of like the ones the Empire wore. What’s next, the hats?

Book has often said the cat is a queen, I keep thinking at some point that cat will shapeshift into a woman, if you know what I mean.

For sure the series took three seasons to get the premise set, and now it’s back to Star Trek roots of exploration and to seek out new life and civilizations. And I’m excited the reset itself appears to be telegraphing to us it’s back via the end titles music, which I like the arrangement for. I hope the new season uses the theme. But Strange New Worlds won’t be able to use it?

Will Discovery now be too similar to Strange New Worlds? I’m sure they will chart directives for each series.

 

[Johnny Angell]

When the episode was over, my wife and I both said “now that’s a season ender!” Then we both thought “Was that a series finale?” We watched a few minutes of the Will Wheaton show to verify that the series will continue and just enough that the actor (forget his name) portraying Saru expects to be back.

 

[Jason_V]

It was a pretty good finale. Some things bothered me: the huge space that the turbo lifts open into is absurd. We’ve seen turbo lift shafts in TOS and TNG and they were cramped spaces. This was dumb.

I wanted to scream when I saw the interior of the Discovery from the turbo shaft again. That's so beyond ridiculous it's not even funny. I don't know why they went back to the interior of the shaft after the response the shots got from early S2.

Overall, it was fine. Osyrra went out like a punk, as expected. Vance cam around, as expected. Burnham has to hold the record for the most official job title changes in three years of a Trek show, with her final promotion to captain.

This season was all about our connection to each other. It was reinforced episode after episode and, by golly, they held to that in the finale. Separately, we don't stand a chance. Together, and only together, can we actually move forward. If that isn't a Trekkian message, I really don't know what is. I want to rewatch the season now through that lens. Knowing the overarcing message and theme may raise this whole season for me.