CBS All Access Star Trek: Discovery - Official Thread

[Greg.K]

From the start I have chosen to believe this series takes place in the Kelvin timeline. First the implausible ten years before Kirk, then Spock with a convenient sister, now the Federation burned to a cinder.

But in the Kelvin timeline, Pike isn't captain of the Enterprise for any significant amount of time, really just the initial mission to Vulcan. Doesn't fit with DIS: season 2.

 

[joshEH]

From the start I have chosen to believe this series takes place in the Kelvin timeline. First the implausible ten years before Kirk, then Spock with a convenient sister, now the Federation burned to a cinder. I know the creators said it's Prime. It's just never felt that way to me. It's all a mind trick anyway. Kind of like canon. If believing this is Kelvin let's me enjoy it more, what's wrong with that? In my opinion it has the same energy and atmosphere as the first two JJ movies. It's a perfect fit for the JJverse. I'll always believe Abrams and crew did a good thing creating the Kelvin timeline, an alternate playground that allowed me to enjoy those three movies and now this series.

It's impossible for Discovery to take place in the Kelvin Timeline, for a bunch of reasons:

- This show begins in mid-2257 and uses the "original" U.S.S. Enterprise under Captain Pike's command, which first launched way back in 2245 (we see Pike having recently finished up a 5-year-mission right at the start of the second season). The Kelvin Timeline's Enterprise doesn't even launch until 2258 (a full year after DSC's first season), and it has its maiden voyage in that film, during Nero's attack on Vulcan.

- Likewise, Prime Universe Vulcan is still around and kicking in DSC's 2258 -- its destruction takes place in that same year in the J,J. Abrams films. (Also, Prime Amanda Grayson is still alive in 2258 on DSC -- her Kelvin Timeline counterpart dies in 2257 on Vulcan, in the 2009 film.)

- Nero's temporal-incursion already happened way back in 2233, and it completely changed the face of Starfleet in the alternate universe created by the red matter, placing them on a much more militaristic footing by 2257 than we see in the Prime-timeline, and on DSC.

- Christopher Pike is still a starship captain in 2258 on DSC, whereas he got promoted to the rank of Admiral a full year earlier at the very end of the 2009 movie, in the Abramsverse.

- By 2257 in the Kelvin Timeline, it is not only fully known who the Romulans truly are (as well as their relationship with Vulcans), but at least three different Romulan language-dialects are able to be learned by Starfleet personnel. This all occurred years sooner than on TOS (in "Balance of Terror," which takes place in late 2266). Last season on DSC, however, it was mentioned in an episode that the Romulans are still hiding in great secrecy on their side of the Neutral Zone, and that this lack of hard intel poses a great threat to the Fedetation.

- Finally, there's the legal reason why Discovery can't take place in the Abramsverse, given that Bad Robot productions has total contractual approval-rights over any Kelvin Timeline stories that CBS and Paramount may want to do, and they aren't involved in the production of Discovery at all.

 

[Lord Dalek]

It isn't the Kelvin timeline but I refuse to believe STD is prime timeline either due to how little the show fits with existing canon. Maybe its its own timeline, I dunno.

 

[Josh Dial]

It isn't the Kelvin timeline but I refuse to believe STD is prime timeline either due to how little the show fits with existing canon. Maybe its its own timeline, I dunno.

This is objectively wrong.

 

[Lord Dalek]

This is objectively wrong.

Care to explain to the class?

 

[Josh Steinberg]

The showrunners, rightsholders and studio all have stated that it takes place in the Prime universe. Therefore, it takes place in the Prime universe.

 

[Nelson Au]

Well, I enjoyed the second episode, Far From Home.

I saw an interesting comment that maybe Detmer has a few traces of Control that might have found a way to infect Detmer’s implants before Control was destroyed. I don’t think that’s a valid theory. I think she just hit her head harder then the doctor realizes. Good thing Dr. Culber noticed there was something wrong with Detmer. Looks like a continuing story thread in future episodes.

The crash landing reminded me of the crash that Voyager has in the episode Timeless. But it looks like Discovery was a pretty tough ship and survived. The Graviton beam likely helped. They sure fixed her fast I thought after the transtator was repaired. So I’m glad that yes, it wasn’t Lost in Space.

i see they are continuing the Stamets and Reno pairings, they seem to work well together. And it was funny how they made light of Leland’s remains. Hazmat! Which sort of didn’t make sense to me, I thought all his biological existence was replaced by a digital recreation. I guess I’ll have to go back and re-see what happened. I think it was stated that Control was better able to impersonate a human by taking over a body. So Leland‘s body must have been like a shell for Control.

The production designers continue to do some great work with the planet and the floating chunks of rock in the sky. I really liked the imagination at work here. This is so unlike anything we’ve seen in any past iteration of a Star Trek production. It is very different looking and because of the improvements in computer technology to allow these effects and visuals at a more affordable price then past shows had access too. Any resemblance to Kelvin Star Trek I think is only skin deep as those films has similar advantages over past Star Trek projects.

I liked how Saru is trusting in Tilly’s abilities and brought her along and she quickly proved her worth in quickly realizing that Kal’s people needed dilithium and she quickly befriends them. The western themed situation at the bar as Saru and Tilly encounter was a real highlight, I wasn’t sure how they were going to get out of that one. So having Georgiou around was very handy. Her fight scene and take down of Zareh was great fun! And we see that Saru can shoot stingers from his head.

I liked the reference to rubindium. And transtators. Goes back to the heart of Star Trek tech of TOS.

I’m guessing we might find out what Georgiou’s interest in Linus was in future episodes. Did she eat him like she enjoyed a Kelpien delicacy? Or was she more interested in Linus’s sight?

I was thinking that for a big jump ahead in time Over 900 years, it’s funny that we still are meeting familiar aliens. I don’t have a problem with it, but I can see some people complain. We’ve heard about Coridan‘s dealing with Dilithium in Journey To Babel, we visit their planet during Enterprise and now we are seeing them in Discovery. My thinking is this is still the same sector of space as they were in in the 23rd century. So they are bound to meet the Andorians, Orions and Gorn. I think it’s fun.

i didn’t even see it coming that Burnham would appear the way she does at the end. So yes, it was great they didn’t keep her separation from Discovery going longer.

I might have to watch Journey to Babel and Patterns of Force.

 

[Josh Dial]

Care to explain to the class?

I've done so numerous times in this thread, including, I think, in response to other posts you've made. If you would like, I invite you to identify specific examples how the show doesn't fit into existing canon. I'll respond in turn.

 

[Johnny Angell]

And we see that Saru can shoot stingers from his head.

When that happened, I turned to my wife and asked “Have we seen THAT before?” I think my chin hit the floor when it happened.

Would someone remind me why it was necessary to go to the future? Something to do with Control?

 

[Josh Steinberg]

When that happened, I turned to my wife and asked “Have we seen THAT before?” I think my chin hit the floor when it happened.

Would someone remind me why it was necessary to go to the future? Something to do with Control?

We saw Saru’s new powers after his evolution in the season 2 episode “A Sound of Thunder”

Control wanted Discovery because it was in possession of the data from an alien sphere which would allow it to gain the necessary information to become sentient. Control becoming sentient results in the death of all life in the universe. The sphere data would not allow itself to be destroyed, and Control had amassed enough power that it could follow and capture Discovery and the data anywhere in the 23rd century. Therefore, the crew decided to take Discovery into the future at a time when Control didn’t exist. It therefore can’t get the sphere data in the 23rd century that it uses to become sentient, and by failing to do so, is neutralized as a threat. Ash Tyler stayed behind to work in Section 31 to ensure that reviving the Control program or something similar was never attempted again.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

i see they are continuing the Stamets and Reno pairings, they seem to work well together.

It's definitely a fun frenemies dynamic. I continue to really like Tig Notaro as Reno; she feels more like a TOS character than the rest of them.

And it was funny how they made light of Leland’s remains. Hazmat! Which sort of didn’t make sense to me, I thought all his biological existence was replaced by a digital recreation.

Leland had been replaced by a Control, which reconstructed his body using nanobots. However, the nanobots were susceptible to magnetic forces, a fact that Mirror Georgiou used to destroy Control in the second season finale.

The sludge representing Leland's remains was actually what was left over from the destroyed nanobots.

I’m guessing we might find out what Georgiou’s interest in Linus was in future episodes. Did she eat him like she enjoyed a Kelpien delicacy? Or was she more interested in Linus’s sight?

I could be wrong, but my assumption was that she just used Linus as an excuse to get away from her minders so that she could run off and follow Saru and Tilly.

I was thinking that for a big jump ahead in time Over 900 years, it’s funny that we still are meeting familiar aliens. I don’t have a problem with it, but I can see some people complain.

900 years is a long time in the context of recorded history; 900 years ago from 2020, William the Conquerer's son was sitting on the English throne and the Crusades were well underway. But in the context of a species, it's barely a blip -- Homo sapiens is a fairly new species, but we've still existed for roughly 200,000 years. Given that knowledge of the Federation is widespread, we're almost certainly still in the Alpha Quadrant. Given that, barring any genocides or any more extinction-level events like the Romulan supernova in 2387, it makes sense that the majority of the species would be be the same.

 

[jayembee]

Is it weird that I was sorry that in the end credits, the credit for "Ensign Hazmat" didn't say "Ensign Hazmat (Gene)"? He seemed so upset that Jett didn't refer to him by his real name.

 

[Museum Pieces]

This is objectively wrong.

I agree it's officially wrong. It's even "consistently" wrong. But "objectively"? You might want to check the definition: "in a way that is not influenced by personal feelings or opinions. In a way that is not dependent on the mind for existence; actually." This is a work of fiction. So that disqualifies the term "objectively." Period.

You can say it might not fit with things that have come before, and I agree, but "objectively" is simply a claim that can't be substantiated.

And BTW, the fact that my choice to view it as Kelvin is not internally consistent within the series is nothing new: there are instances in every series where things are not internally consistent within the same series, Kelvin or not. What's canon changes from time to time, as well. So how can anything be truly consistent?

My goal is to create a mentality that allows me to enjoy the show, not constantly shake my head at how incongruous it appears in relation to what it claims to be. For me that creates bigger discrepancies than the ones I have to live with believing it's Kelvin. Being Kelvin makes the discrepancies a better trade off for me. That's the best way I know how to explain it.

I'm not the only one wrestling with the absurd discrepancies of it. That the season two show runners basically undid as much of season one as they could gives credibility to the need for my mind trick. They admitted, for example, that it wasn't credible to keep the show in its current time. So they changed it. Thank God. And that change was one of many that corrected shortsighted choices in season one. So it's not just me. The people running the show instituted changes to make it more credible.

Look--it's either do my mind trick or not watch it. I actually enjoy DSC when I imagine it Kelvin. What's wrong with that? I'm not saying anybody else has to do it.

I think Lord Dalek's idea to make it its own timeline is a much better solution than mine but, alas, I've been three years with this Kelvin mentality for DSC and am too fatigued to do the mental weightlifting to change it now.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

It’s objectively true because the people who make it say it is. Since they have the creative and legal final word on what their intentions are, it is objectively true that it’s in the Prime universe.

I don’t understand why this discussion keeps happening.

 

[Museum Pieces]

It’s objectively true because the people who make it say it is. Since they have the creative and legal final word on what their intentions are, it is objectively true that it’s in the Prime universe.

It's not objectively true. it's factually true. There's a big difference.

For something to be objectively true, it has to be true from all points of view. Not just the show runner's. Everybody's. That's what the word "objective" means. If it didn't, there would be no difference between fact and truth. And if that were true, we'd all be in big trouble.

I don’t understand why this discussion keeps happening.

This discussion keeps happening for the same reason the season two show runners made so many fundamental changes to the series: it simply wasn't credible enough for them to sustain over the long term. But don't take my word for it. Ask them.

That said, I find your question troubling on a more important level. It seems to imply that since you've already had this discussion, and you disagree with me, that the discussion is no longer worth having. I didn't start this conflict. If you are tired of the discussion, stay out of it. This is a public message board. I have violated no rules. You are not king of this particular hill. I wouldn't even care if you were, but if you're going to jump in the water with me, be sure you can swim.

My account doesn't even have a hundred posts on it and I can see a pattern here. It's happened to me twice already, and going back through this thread, to many others. Someone makes a comment that apparently isn't popular and the same people gang up on them and relentlessly call them out. If the original party defends themselves, then another guy posts asking, "When are we going to talk about Star Trek?" It's as regular as clockwork. This is not my first message board, but it's the first time I've ever had to make a comment like this.

The question isn't why this discussion keeps happening. The question is what are the common denominators creating this unfortunate pattern of conflict.

And for the record, I never said DSC was Kelvin. I said I approach it that way when I watch it. And yet look what happened. I feel like I'm basically being told I don't have the right to do that.

What does that amount to?

I won't be bullied. And I won't be made the one who caused the problem here.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

nevermind, not worth it.

 

[Museum Pieces]

nevermind, not worth it.

Fair enough. But when I call someone out, using the right word is always worth it to me. Words matter on a message board. They're basically all we've got.

 

[Josh Dial]

I agree it's officially wrong. It's even "consistently" wrong. But "objectively"? You might want to check the definition: "in a way that is not influenced by personal feelings or opinions. In a way that is not dependent on the mind for existence; actually." This is a work of fiction. So that disqualifies the term "objectively." Period.

Emphasis added.

Fair enough. But when I call someone out, using the right word is always worth it to me. Words matter on a message board. They're all we've got.

Yes, I am of course exceedingly stupid and don't know what words mean.

Ironically, it's your view that is influenced by personal feelings and opinions. It's your view that is dependant on your mind.

DISCO takes place in the prime universe not just because the creators say it does (though that is a factor), but because if you look at the franchise from an objective point of view the show fits the established canon. The only logical conclusion is that it is in the prime universe. The only people who reach a different conclusion are those who--for reasons I can only guess at--want it (want it desperately, for some reason) it to be in a different timeline. Those opinions ought to be excluded when doing a head count for objectiveness.

It's reached the point that I'm just going to start ignoring those opinions altogether. Staaaaaarting...now.

 

[Museum Pieces]

It's reached the point that I'm just going to start ignoring those opinions altogether. Staaaaaarting...now.

No matter how upset you are at yourself for using the wrong word won't make your claim objectively true.

I'm not the one that called somebody out. You did. I'm defending myself with words and what they actually mean. I hope I never feel so threatened by someone's argument that I have to announce to the world that I am ignoring them, or that it's not worth it. I hope I'm big enough to say something like, "You know what? You're right. I should have used a different word."

But if you feel like taking your marbles and going home is the thing to do, I wish you well.

 

[TJPC]

OMG!!! Is this a Monty Python sketch? I am very close to unfollowing this thread. Is there someone outside of a philosophy or semantics department who is even reading these arguments? I keep skipping through them in the hope that they will have something to do with “Discovery”.