Paramount+ Star Trek: Discovery - Official Thread (2 Viewers)

[DaveF]

The one misstep for me may be the Klingons. Their speech is so slow and halting and marble-mouthed, it feels like They’re Acting! and lacks all the naturalness of TNG-era Klingons much less the modern ease of the patois in The Expanse. The Klingons are kinda hard to watch and enjoy. Weird choices.

 

[Jason_V]

The one misstep for me may be the Klingons. Their speech is so slow and halting and marble-mouthed, it feels like They’re Acting! and lacks all the naturalness of TNG-era Klingons much less the modern ease of the patois in The Expanse. The Klingons are kinda hard to watch and enjoy. Weird choices.

Yeah, I think the Klingon misstep in Discovery is one thing we can all agree on. The 24th Century Klingons might have been too human...but this version doesn't feel like a bridge from Archer's Klingon's to Kirk's Klingons. For me, anyway.

 

[Josh Dial]

Yeah, I think the Klingon misstep in Discovery is one thing we can all agree on. The 24th Century Klingons might have been too human...but this version doesn't feel like a bridge from Archer's Klingon's to Kirk's Klingons. For me, anyway.

I don't agree with this at all. In fact I think that the Discovery Klingons are the only good Klingons in the entire franchise. I've written about this elsewhere in the thread but I'll do it again.

First, and to Dave's point about the language, they are the only television Klingons that actually speak Klingon correctly as designed by Marc Okrand. Virtually all other uses of the language in TNG, DS9, and ENT were terrible and barely even resembled the proper language. DS9 was the worst, actually: most times it was like the Klingons were literally just saying random words (and speaking them poorly!).

Second, this is the first time the Klingons actually seem dangerous and militaristic. Despite being a "warlike" race, and despite actually seeing them at war in DS9, the Klingons always seemed ineffective and rather...wimpy. Their militaristic nature and culture was often played for laughs. Discovery is the first time they have consistently felt like a warlike species actually skilled in war.

Lastly, despite all of the many episodes Ron Moore wrote about Klingon culture (and there were a lot of them--maybe too many) the Klingons have too often been just a collection of tropes and quick one-off facts. Previously, the only plot line where the culture was really explored was DS9's Dahar Master line (with Kor, Koloth, and Kang). I'm not sure how it was possible but the Klingons have had, I think, the most two-parter episodes (and season finales/premieres) across the entire franchise and yet their culture is still relatively flat. The Cardassians, Ferengi, and even the Dominion are more well-rounded.

Discovery is the first time the entire production seems to actually care about the Klingons. Despite all their previous screen time they were somehow given lazy attention most of the time.

(For what it's worth Star Trek: Picard seems to be advancing Romulans more than any other iteration of the franchise.)

 

[TJPC]

But they are soooo boring!! The halting language etc. etc. I don’t know how the other actors stop themselves from saying “come on come on” and snapping their fingers”. I also have mentioned this before. This is all fiction, have them speak English for god sake, I’ll gladly pretend they are speaking their own stupid “language”! There I’ve said it! Nice to get this off my chest!

 

[Josh Dial]

Whether it's in Star Trek, a political drama, or otherwise, having foreign language-speaking people "speak" their language in English is so absolutely boring and lazy.

I'm not an idiot. I can listen to actors deliver their lines in a different language and read English subtitles at the same time. While this is more true for "real world" languages like Russian or German, I much prefer to watch an actor give a natural performance in the "correct" language rather than seeing a bunch of people speak English in a bad Russian accent.

The show "The Americans" didn't shy away from having all the Russian characters speak Russian and it was all the better for it. I don't need my entertainment dumbed down for me.

 

[Jason_V]

I don't agree with this at all. In fact I think that the Discovery Klingons are the only good Klingons in the entire franchise. I've written about this elsewhere in the thread but I'll do it again.

First, and to Dave's point about the language, they are the only television Klingons that actually speak Klingon correctly as designed by Marc Okrand. Virtually all other uses of the language in TNG, DS9, and ENT were terrible and barely even resembled the proper language. DS9 was the worst, actually: most times it was like the Klingons were literally just saying random words (and speaking them poorly!).

Second, this is the first time the Klingons actually seem dangerous and militaristic. Despite being a "warlike" race, and despite actually seeing them at war in DS9, the Klingons always seemed ineffective and rather...wimpy. Their militaristic nature and culture was often played for laughs. Discovery is the first time they have consistently felt like a warlike species actually skilled in war.

Lastly, despite all of the many episodes Ron Moore wrote about Klingon culture (and there were a lot of them--maybe too many) the Klingons have too often been just a collection of tropes and quick one-off facts. Previously, the only plot line where the culture was really explored was DS9's Dahar Master line (with Kor, Koloth, and Kang). I'm not sure how it was possible but the Klingons have had, I think, the most two-parter episodes (and season finales/premieres) across the entire franchise and yet their culture is still relatively flat. The Cardassians, Ferengi, and even the Dominion are more well-rounded.

Discovery is the first time the entire production seems to actually care about the Klingons. Despite all their previous screen time they were somehow given lazy attention most of the time.

(For what it's worth Star Trek: Picard seems to be advancing Romulans more than any other iteration of the franchise.)

We all have our own likes and dislikes, Josh. For me, this version doesn't seem connected to any other version of the race. I guess they're the closest to Archer's Klingons, but so far removed from what comes almost contemporaneously with Kirk's they don't fit for me. Sure, they might adhere to the "original" (and I use that loosely) intent of the language and make the most sense in a "real world" perspective, but in terms of the greater franchise, nope. At least for me.

 

[Nelson Au]

Wow, interesting Dave that you’ve not seen Discovery until now. It will be interesting to read your thoughts as you progress through the rest of the first season. Then if you follow into the second season, I’ll be curious how you like that.

 

[TJPC]

Whether it's in Star Trek, a political drama, or otherwise, having foreign language-speaking people "speak" their language in English is so absolutely boring and lazy.

I'm not an idiot. I can listen to actors deliver their lines in a different language and read English subtitles at the same time. While this is more true for "real world" languages like Russian or German, I much prefer to watch an actor give a natural performance in the "correct" language rather than seeing a bunch of people speak English in a bad Russian accent.

The show "The Americans" didn't shy away from having all the Russian characters speak Russian and it was all the better for it. I don't need my entertainment dumbed down for me.

These shows are great fun to me, especially in the second season. However, Klingon is not a real language. They can make up whatever they want. Even “Gee wiz the Klingons have decided to adopt our language”.

I thought they were entertaining as funny cardboard villains in the original series, but when TNG had episodes involving delving deep into Klingon “culture” with Warf and his son, I found it very hard slogging. We used to watch the show as a family, but everyone but me dropped out one by one during the original run. I find it really hard to care about the culture and language of a totally fictional group of completely humourless now gargoyles.

 

[DaveF]

Lastly, despite all of the many episodes Ron Moore wrote about Klingon culture (and there were a lot of them--maybe too many) the Klingons have too often been just a collection of tropes and quick one-off facts. Previously, the only plot line where the culture was really explored was DS9's Dahar Master line (with Kor, Koloth, and Kang). I'm not sure how it was possible but the Klingons have had, I think, the most two-parter episodes (and season finales/premieres) across the entire franchise and yet their culture is still relatively flat. The Cardassians, Ferengi, and even the Dominion are more well-rounded.

Right. Agree wholly on the overall depiction of the Klingons as a more fully realized culture. I'm into that.

BUTTT!
WHHHEN!
THEEEY!
TALKKK!
IIIT!
ISSSSS!
ASSSSSS!
IIIF!
EVVVVERY!
WOOOORD!
ISSSS!
DISTINCTTTT!
ANNNND!
IMMMMPEDED!
BBBBY!
MOOOOUTH!
PRRRRROSTHETICS!
HAILLL!
T'KUVMA!!!!

It's weird, and not in a way that improves the show. There was a brief flashback of T'Kuvma as a boy, and the boy spoke Klingon naturally, quickly. I was expecting that to be the norm. But it's all High Council Formalism with fake teeth making them sound slurred and mumbly.

Wow, interesting Dave that you’ve not seen Discovery until now. It will be interesting to read your thoughts as you progress through the rest of the first season. Then if you follow into the second season, I’ll be curious how you like that.

I had 99 streaming services and CBS wasn't one of them. I've got the free trial so I'm watching what I can until it's over. Will decide what to do when my trial ends. Because Picard was fun and glad I watched it. But Discovery is so much better than Picard and greatly exceeds my misinformed expectations.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

My take on the Klingons has softened since the original airing. The costume and makeup choices might not have been my picks, but it’s not something that really matters.

To me, the one real complaint is just physically how long it takes to speak a sentence in Klingon - to me the mismatch becomes evident when I can routinely finish reading the subtitle translation while whoever is speaking has only just started uttering the sentence. It just feels so clunky to wait so long for the next sentence and makes the episodes feel slower than they actually are. I don’t object to them using the language and subtitles, it just moves at what for me is an uncomfortably slow pace to read.

 

[David Weicker]

To me, the one real complaint is just physically how long it takes to speak a sentence in Klingon - to me the mismatch becomes evident when I can routinely finish reading the subtitle translation while whoever is speaking has only just started uttering the sentence. It just feels so clunky to wait so long for the next sentence and makes the episodes feel slower than they actually are. I don’t object to them using the language and subtitles, it just moves at what for me is an uncomfortably slow pace to read.

Plus a 'slow' language would be horrible in a battle

"bring up the shields and"
"we've been hit sir"
"launch the torpedoes"
"another hit sir"

 

[DaveF]

Skipped a night (since I watched four episodes of The Magicians that day), but watched three more episodes of Discovery last night.

I admit, it took me half an episode to understand why Berman and Tilly were jogging in "DISCO" shirts.

I expected the dilemma over whether Ripper (the cosmic Tartigrade) should be subjected to suffering for the greater good fo Starfleet would last a good chunk of the season. And that dealing with perhaps its sentience would play out in the finale. Nope! They're doing some classic Trek scifi here and deal with that in one episode. And we're moving on! Glad to see that.

Captain Lorca was captured, and rescued. We meet Ash. I've accidentally heard spoilers, so I think I know his deal. Looking froward to seeing that play out.

Interesting seeing Marvey Mudd brought into the series, as a prequel version of his TOS episode. I didn't like The Office, and had no appreciation of Rainn Wilson's performance in that show. But when he pops up in things like Discovery, he's always superb!

Which is good, because he's back for a scifi-standard, the time-loop episode. This was ok. I enjoyed it, but TNG and Stargate did it much better. And letting Mudd go made no sense, except that continuity with TOS demands it? I don't know, the ending didn't make any real sense nor have any actually apparent continuity with TOS.

Michael training Tilly? Michael time-loop crushing on Ash and the getting reset to her awkward not-a-Vulcan discomfort at crushing on him in silence? Yes. The heart of what I love about Star Trek TNG and its successors are the "team" dynamics. At the heart for me were the good-natured relationships between the characters, the friendships, the comraderie. And having that play out in this modern, more cynical, take on Star Trek, is essential to me.


Vulcans gonna be arrogant. And Klingons gonna betray.

Very much enjoying this series. Hoping I can finish S1 before my CBS trial ends, but I'm not confident.

 

[Josh Dial]

I admit, it took me half an episode to understand why Berman and Tilly were jogging in "DISCO" shirts.

Literally the first thing I did after watching this episode was go an order one of those DISCO shirts from the official website

I don't know, the ending didn't make any real sense nor have any actually apparent continuity with TOS.

This episode takes place nine years before TOS' "Mudd's Women" so it fits the continuity. It's even with keeping with classic Star Trek ideals: after all, they let Khan go, too.

"Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad" is my favourite DISCO episode. In fact, I would put it on my top ten of all episodes in the franchise. Then again, I'm an absolute sucker for time loop plots. It's a shame the episode lost the Hugo award.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I think that was the best S1 episode, for sure.

They didn’t quite let him go free... more that they left him with a powerful gangster and a wife he can’t stand, who will make his life a living hell by using threat of force to keep him trapped at home.

 

[TJPC]

Skipped a night (since I watched four episodes of The Magicians that day), but watched three more episodes of Discovery last night.

I admit, it took me half an episode to understand why Berman and Tilly were jogging in "DISCO" shirts.

I expected the dilemma over whether Ripper (the cosmic Tartigrade) should be subjected to suffering for the greater good fo Starfleet would last a good chunk of the season. And that dealing with perhaps its sentience would play out in the finale. Nope! They're doing some classic Trek scifi here and deal with that in one episode. And we're moving on! Glad to see that.

Captain Lorca was captured, and rescued. We meet Ash. I've accidentally heard spoilers, so I think I know his deal. Looking froward to seeing that play out.

Interesting seeing Marvey Mudd brought into the series, as a prequel version of his TOS episode. I didn't like The Office, and had no appreciation of Rainn Wilson's performance in that show. But when he pops up in things like Discovery, he's always superb!

Which is good, because he's back for a scifi-standard, the time-loop episode. This was ok. I enjoyed it, but TNG and Stargate did it much better. And letting Mudd go made no sense, except that continuity with TOS demands it? I don't know, the ending didn't make any real sense nor have any actually apparent continuity with TOS.

Michael training Tilly? Michael time-loop crushing on Ash and the getting reset to her awkward not-a-Vulcan discomfort at crushing on him in silence? Yes. The heart of what I love about Star Trek TNG and its successors are the "team" dynamics. At the heart for me were the good-natured relationships between the characters, the friendships, the comraderie. And having that play out in this modern, more cynical, take on Star Trek, is essential to me.


Vulcans gonna be arrogant. And Klingons gonna betray.

Very much enjoying this series. Hoping I can finish S1 before my CBS trial ends, but I'm not confident.

I’d renew for at least one more month. To quote W.C. Fields season two makes season one “sound like a mangy alley cat with asthma”!

 

[DaveF]

The time loop episode was fine. I always enjoy a time loop episode. But kinda surprised it’s a favorite. I’ve enjoyed several other episodes better already. But it did keep me guessing and did some good character work.

so, I should frame it as the question: what grabbed you in the time loop episode? How do you compare it to other such episodes?

 

[DaveF]

Watched two more last night.

Spoiler: Huge Spoiler!

I knew from podcast that skewed off into Discovery that Ash was a secret agent. But I didn't realize he was Vok remade.

But the huge spoiler, which Discovery expertly kept secretly in part by being so (relatively) obvious about Ash / Vok, was that Gabriel Lorca was from the mirror universe!!! Whoa!

Ok, so we've been to the Mirror Universe and back. Some good stuff there. I appreciated Mirror Sarek with Mirror Beard.

Two more to go, should finish tonight, before my month free trial ends.

 

[joshEH]

Spoiler: Huge Spoiler!

I knew from podcast that skewed off into Discovery that Ash was a secret agent. But I didn't realize he was Vok remade.

But the huge spoiler, which Discovery expertly kept secretly in part by being so (relatively) obvious about Ash / Vok, was that Gabriel Lorca was from the mirror universe!!! Whoa!

Spoiler

Yup, and if you go back and rewatch those earlier episodes now, you'll start catching lots of little clues that the producers planted throughout about Lorca's true identity (such during the episode "Lethe," when Admiral Cornwell notices Lorca's scars post-coitus, which were caused by an Agonizer). They actually did a segment on the Discovery-aftershow immediately following that episode about all those hiding-in-plain-sight clues.

 

[DaveF]

I finished S1 last night. I thoroughly enjoyed this show. I thought the ending was a bit weaker than the start. The resolution at Q'onos was somewhat anti-climatic and a stretch, even for Star Trek (everyone sleeps at some point). And the episode before had my least favorite plot device terraforming a barren planet to instantly get more sporesbecause of the pure magic required (I guess this ties into Star Trek 2, but still).

But I am quibbling.

Watching Michelle Yeoh inhabit her role: She was terrifyingly convincing.

I enjoyed the emotional arc of Michael and Ash. And the show really did an elegant and organic job of moving Michael Berman and especially Tilly through Michael's rehabilitation. Equally well done was taking Tilly from almost-the-punchline character to someone I believe will become a Captain of her own starship.

Suru. Doug Jones. Just fantastic.

But, I canceled my CBS subscription, as my free trial ends tonight. I look forward to watching S2 and S3. But I've got so many other shows on Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, and SyFy right now. But CBS ultimately succeeded: they convinced me I should pay for their service (eventually) to get more Discovery. And then I'll also get to watch The Good Fight.

 

[Josh Dial]

Glad you liked season one, Dave. I agree with everything you wrote about Michael and Ash's arc. I especially liked how emotionally vulnerable (and, dare I say, human) the characters were allowed to be. Michael telling Ash that she "sees him" was one of the more open scenes in the franchise (up there with Picard's breakdown in TNG's "Family").

For what it's worth Discovery season 2 is so good that it alone is worth the price of a streaming service. It's so good, in fact, that there aren't too many shows on the other streaming services you listed that derserve a priority slot (especially given your review of season 1). Too bad you don't live near me: you could borrow my blu-ray copy.