Paramount+ Star Trek: Discovery - Official Thread (1 Viewer)

[Josh Steinberg]

I hope so very much that you’re right. That is a genius hope.

 

[benbess]

The next generation in my house, daughter 17 and son 22, found a way to watch the first episode of this season free through hulu. Anyway, we liked it a little better than the first season, but that's not saying much. Maybe part of the problem is too much money, which brings us huge action/chase scenes with little emotional involvement. And scenes like "let's break into applause for mathematics" seemed well-intentioned but didn't feel like Star Trek—more like a high school science fair rally or something. Given the grim reviews of the new Klingon episode, I think my family will wait 4-5 months to see if we want to subscribe to binge-watch the season when it's all over.

We still felt the arrogance of the producers and writers of this show as demonstrated by their disregard for the Star Trek of 1964-2005.

This seems below like an interesting comparison and critique of the new show....

 

[Jason_V]

Wow, so much Klingon dislike. Not to take away from your feelings as they are valid for you. I guess I was a little more intrigued. It reminds me of the TNG and DS9 Klingon centric episodes. It feels like the producers are TNG fans and want to do some homages. The whole business with Worf and the lies told to protect the lies by the House of Duras are storylines that feel like what the Discovery team are using for inspiration. I’d have to check to be sure, Ron Moore did write a lot of the Klingon episodes and set a tone for the Klingons. So the way that the Federation ( Section 31 ) is helping L’Rell stay in power by leading the Klingon Empire feels like the TNG / Enterprise episodes.

Well, here's the thing. It's not a blanket Klingon dislike. It's a dislike for this version of the Klingons and the storyline. We just came off a season in which they got rearranged, reimagined and took a front seat in everything that was going on. This happened, largely, away from our main characters, so we have two separate stories to follow.

Over on TNG and DS9, any Klingon story directly involved our main characters and we never, ever had a full season story devoted to them. Plus, for my money, I'll take JG Hertzler as a Klingon over any of the actors in Discovery. Put Hertzler, Brooks and Dorn together...I'm hooked. Put Patrick Stewart and Michael Dorn together, I'm there. These actors? Nah. Sorry.

 

[John*Wells]

Well, here's the thing. It's not a blanket Klingon dislike. It's a dislike for this version of the Klingons and the storyline. We just came off a season in which they got rearranged, reimagined and took a front seat in everything that was going on. This happened, largely, away from our main characters, so we have two separate stories to follow.

Over on TNG and DS9, any Klingon story directly involved our main characters and we never, ever had a full season story devoted to them. Plus, for my money, I'll take JG Hertzler as a Klingon over any of the actors in Discovery. Put Hertzler, Brooks and Dorn together...I'm hooked. Put Patrick Stewart and Michael Dorn together, I'm there. These actors? Nah. Sorry.

I agree. especially since TOS had klingon Appearances and since Discovery takes place before TOS, the Discovery klingons should behave in a similar manner to TOS Klingons.. my 2 cents anyway

 

[Nelson Au]

I get you Jason. It has been messy with how the Bryan Fuller Klingons have been initially developed, then showrunners change, then fan reaction, then Season 2 sees further tweaks to the Klingons. I guess I feel like the current show runners are trying to fix things and I liked what they did to redirect the Klingons closer to what the fans know and expected.

 

[Josh Dial]

I was never really a fan of the Klingon stuff. Despite having a lot of episodes across many shows (but especially TNG), they never really felt fleshed out. Even worse, many of their plotlines were simply boring (the plot to DS9's "The Albino" was great, however).

TNG often committed the narrative sin of telling. not showing. Worst of all, was was shown often betrayed what we were told. We were told the Klingons were obsessed with honour, yet most of the Klingons were back-stabbing, scheming, and downright nasty cheats. The language--when spoken at all--was delivered as though the actors barely rehearsed the lines, and didn't understand the translation; it often felt like emotionless recitation from cue cards.

The other races felt far more realized. The Cardassians, Ferengi, and even Romulans had better stories, and those stories were frequently better told.

At least with Discovery we're getting a few interesting tidbits. I think it's interesting that the various houses seem to have "specialties" (there's a house that works in the shadows, dealing in espionage and altering physical appearances). I think it's interesting that in only a hundred or so years, the Klingons went from having women lead houses and run the Empire, to women being prohibited from even serving on the council (TNG: "Redemption Part 1"). Things like that happen in real life, and I think it could be interesting to see it happen on the show.

Maybe we'll get to see the origin of a Klingon Dahar Master (maybe someone from the house of Kor, Koloth, or Kang!). I would totally watch an episode just about Klingon Dahar Masters fighting a superior foe, all shot like a classic submarine war movie.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I’m not opposed to an exploration of Klingon culture in general. It just seems like the wrong time and the wrong place for it.

This season has been structured around the mystery of the red lights and how they relate to the disappearance of Spock. It’s a story of exploration and facing the unknown. The internal politics of the Klingon empire just aren’t part of that story.

Watching this most recent episode was a little bit like watching an episode of “24” where the A and B plots are devoted to stopping an imminent nuclear explosion, and then the C plot is about Jack Bauer’s daughter’s adventures in babysitting. There may be a perfectly compelling, enjoyable story to be told about babysitting. But when a nuclear bomb is about to go off, it’s just a distraction and a waste to spend even a moment worried about the babysitter.

The red lights are the nuke, and the Klingons are Kim Bauer’s babysitting adventures right now.

“24” had 24 episodes a season and aired consistently from year to year. You could forgive them for time-filling tangents that ultimately led nowhere, as frustrating as they could be when you were in the middle of it. DSC has 14 episodes and takes excessively long breaks between seasons. Each moment we’re wasting with the Klingons is a waste of screen time that could otherwise be used to better tell the main story.

 

[Josh Dial]

The red lights are the nuke, and the Klingons are Kim Bauer’s babysitting adventures right now.

Look out, L'Rell! It's a cougar (Korgar?)!

It seems the House of Kor is interpreting the red pulses as a sign ("seven drops of blood ready to rain down"). It's possible the Klingon unification story dovetails with the search for Spock and the red pulse investigation at some point. Maybe a few of the more zealous houses start interfering with Discovery's rescue operations?

 

[Carabimero]

“24” had 24 episodes a season and aired consistently from year to year. You could forgive them for time-filling tangents that ultimately led nowhere, as frustrating as they could be when you were in the middle of it. DSC has 14 episodes and takes excessively long breaks between seasons. Each moment we’re wasting with the Klingons is a waste of screen time that could otherwise be used to better tell the main story.

This is why I hold DSC to a higher standard. When you only have 14 episodes, and no strict premiere date, there is absolutely NO EXCUSE for not having those 14 scripts bullet proof. No excuse. Every episode should be good if not great.

I have never--and will never--compare DSC to past TV Star Trek because the production circumstances are completely different. I see series with 13 episodes on Netflix all the time, and most of those series have no trouble getting their scripts bullet proof.

CBS and DSC have had their rookie season. It's time to get professional and play in the big boy sandbox.

 

[Josh Dial]

I see series with 13 episodes on Netflix all the time, and most of those series have no trouble getting their scripts bullet proof.

I know Game of Thrones is on HBO and not Netflix, but the scripts for that show have been pretty poor for going on three seasons now (basically as soon as they started running out of Martin's words to adapt). That said, I generally agree with you and Josh that a show with fewer episodes should have higher standards and better quality control. Of course, that's assuming a decent degree of quality to begin with: a show with trash writers and stories is still going to be trash no matter the episode count It seems a good amount of network shows are doing the limited episode count season thing and I find them all mostly still unwatchable. I'll take the worst episode of Discovery over the best episode of NBC's Manifest any day.

Sadly, not every show can be The Leftovers (which I consider to have 28 perfect/near-perfect episodes, without a single dud).

 

[Tino]

I know Game of Thrones is on HBO and not Netflix, but the scripts for that show have been pretty poor for going on three seasons now (basically as soon as they started running out of Martin's words to adapt).

Ya know Josh, I was really enjoying and agreeing with pretty much all your posts. Then you had to go and say this!

 

[BobO'Link]

Ya know Josh, I was really enjoying and agreeing with pretty much all your posts. Then you had to go and say this!

But he's right. Deep down you know this... In spite of this it's still one of the best shows on "TV".

 

[Philip Verdieck]

Well, here's the thing. It's not a blanket Klingon dislike. It's a dislike for this version of the Klingons and the storyline. We just came off a season in which they got rearranged, reimagined and took a front seat in everything that was going on. This happened, largely, away from our main characters, so we have two separate stories to follow.

Over on TNG and DS9, any Klingon story directly involved our main characters and we never, ever had a full season story devoted to them. Plus, for my money, I'll take JG Hertzler as a Klingon over any of the actors in Discovery. Put Hertzler, Brooks and Dorn together...I'm hooked. Put Patrick Stewart and Michael Dorn together, I'm there. These actors? Nah. Sorry.

This x 1000.

Sorry Nelson, but the S1 entire Klingon War to me was a bucket of excrement. If they don't have another horrible Klingon episode for 3 years it would only help the show. There are so many different stories and races to utilize, that this horrific example of Klingons isn't required at all. I can appreciate them using the language, but nothing else.

They botched it horribly in S1. And everytime I see another stupidly bald, stupidly misshapen Klingon head I am reminded of how stupid it was in S1 and how stupidly it looks now.

 

[Tino]

But he's right. Deep down you know this... In spite of this it's still one of the best shows on "TV".

Actually he’s wrong. It is still the best show on tv. I know this indeed. But that’s for another thread.

 

[Nelson Au]

On a slightly different topic, I was thinking of the scene in Point of Light when Tyler/Voc sees the Mirror Georgiou after she kills Kol-Sha’s henchmen. At first I wondered if he was in shock to see her because when he was Voc, he saw/knew she was killed on the Sarcophagus ship. I know Kol and crew ate her body, I am not sure but Voc or L’Rell also ate her body. So it might have been a bit of a shock for Tyler/Voc. But then Tyler did call her Emperor, so he and L’Rell already knew who she is in the aftermath of the mission on Qu’noS last season. But there has to be some just desserts for her perhaps knowing she killed Kol-Sha’s Men and L’Rell killing Kol-Sha considering Kol ate her counterpart. On the other hand, Mirror Georgiou probably doesn’t care about Prime Georgiou. So this didn’t go anywhere. I just wanted to throw that out.

 

[Josh Dial]

I liked episode three more on a re-watch than on first viewing (though I still liked it the first time).

The episode features dualities and people caught between two worlds trying to reconcile them. Spock is half-human and half-Vulcan (a duality), but was essentially raised pure Vulcan. His childhood was loveless. Michael was fully human, but her upbringing was part-human and part-Vulcan. Her childhood was loving.

Ash Tyler is literally two people-in-one. L'Rell is caught between the Klingon status quo and the Klingon future.

Michael and Ash's scene was striking: at first they are mere holograms in each other's rooms. This represents their physical and emotional distance. Quickly, however, the design changes, and their two worlds are melded together as one. Though it goes unspoken, neither seems to have completely gotten over the other. The change is done so well, from the production, to the dialogue, to the acting. Pre-meld, the discussion is very business-like: Ash thanks Michael for taking his call and says the Federation needs to be aware of the situation on Qo'noS; Michael says she'll pass it up the chain of command. It looks like the call is ending, but Michael pauses, "wait" she says, pauses, then, "I dunno..." Suddenly the two environments are shown as one (smoke is even billowing out from Ash's world into Michael's). The characters are smiling, even chuckling; their entire demeanor and the way the actors carry their bodies changes. Michael tells Ash, "you've got me, right now." The delivery of that line reminded me of the "I see you" line from the first season (which I say is an overlooked declaration of love that was quite touching). The line appears to knock Ash for a spin (he literally rocks back on his feet).

This scene is a prime example of the various parts of film-making working together. It's also strangely beautiful:

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Ash Tyler is literally two people-in-one.

See, that's my problem - I can't think of him that way. He's one person, Voq, who underwent surgery to have his appearance made human, and who had a personality implant put over his memories that people would think he was a Starfleet officer named Ash Tyler. The real Ash Tyler was captured by the Klingons and killed long before we ever met Voq-Ash. I find it very difficult to care for Voq; he got what he signed up for. I am still frustrated that the showrunners negated everything that Ash Tyler was and could have meant to the show for the sake of that silly plot twist.

 

[Nelson Au]

The dueling Joshes!

In the voice of Dr. Tristen Adams, I’m afraid I’m with Mr. Dial on this one. I get the disappointment you feel Josh that Tyler was a planted agent and Tyler was never alive. But for me, it seems that the mind transference, if you will, of Ash Tyler was so complete, that the original Vog didn’t seem to have a chance. He was so in love with Michael, Vog didn’t have a chance. So to me, while the original real Tyler may have been killed, it seems they took so much of him from his body, they could have gotten his “soul”. I think he is still suffering from the effects of the torturous transformation. But the emotional toll is even worse for Tyler and his feelings for Michael and L’Rell.

That scene from the screen cap above was pretty well done! I also was noticing the subtle changes too as they were going from serious business to flirting and the rooms they were in started to blur and blend. Agreed I t’s a really well done sequence.

On the other hand, while I did like the further developments with the Klingons, I also agree with Josh S that this was a distraction from the main story. The episode had one too many storylines shuffling and they did a pretty good job of it. Silly Tilly’s story, I liked that name, Killy to Silly. The Klingon story, and the Amanda and Spock story. And they managed to put Michael into each one. I think there is a point eventually the Klingons are a part of the plot line later on. We’ll see in time what the plan is. Who would have thought all this was going on and a few years later we will meet Kor on Organia for the first time.

 

[Josh Dial]

I am still frustrated that the showrunners negated everything that Ash Tyler was and could have meant to the show for the sake of that silly plot twist.

I agree. I would have really liked to see a story thread about Ash Tyler with PTSD (though it may have ended up being too "dark" for a lot of viewers). The franchise could have went down that road with both O'Brien, Kira, and even Nog, but never really went as far as I wanted.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I love that Star Trek is back and that we’re here doing this. This is the TV highlight of the year for me, for sure, and all of you make it better. I’ve just been feeling that a lot lately and wanted to be sure I said it.

I’m now rewatching the previous week’s episode before the new one, so I’ll see last week’s again tomorrow. It’s something I’ve done occasionally when I’ve really loved a show. Beyond the obvious benefit of the full recap, watching the previous week’s episode before the new one allows me to get into the rhythm of the show and it’s world, and to be completely immersed before the new one starts.

Because of the work schedule and all that, I’m usually not starting until about 2am. I have no idea what Trek thing I’ll feel like rewatching after the new episode, but the new episode will give me those clues as it unfolds. While I’ll miss launching this week’s festivities with a new Orville, I can’t wait for tomorrow night.