Speakers changed from small to large... (1 Viewer)

[DonnyD]

I've pretty much always gone with the usual regarding speaker settings but the last week or so, I've been adjusting things and changing various settings. I've always set everything to small but have changed most of my speakers to large for the last week and watched some new and some older movies just to see how much, if any, difference it would make. I'll have to say, the difference was quite dramatic. Both my GF and I noted more dramatic bass and low end and more in your face power.
My system is comprised of:
RXV-1 Yam receiver
Acurus 200x3 driving mains and center
JBL L100 mains
Veritas 2.0C center
Energy RVSS surrounds
JBL Sat 2 as double rear centers
SVS 20-39pci

All except the rear center set to large and the LFE set to BOTH has made a dramatic difference. Tonight we re-screen LOTR-FOTR in preparation for LOTR-TTT. We were both stunned at how powerful this was in all the dramatic sequences.

Next week I hope to have my 2.2 Veritas hooked up as mains. Received them last week but one was damaged (thank you UPS) and is back at the dealer for repairs. So far, the Veritas 2.0C has excellent sound and is very accurate. Plus, those Veritas are really a nice looking speaker set.

 

[ColinM]

If I had a setup like yours, I'd certainly experiment with the large profile, and I'd stick to what sounded best. In fact I'm getting tired of the wussy bookshelf thing - I'm thinking floorstanding Klipsch in the next year.

Did you notice that the phase relationship changed at all between the mains and sub when you introduced bass all around?

 

[Lewis Besze]

I was running speakers large before too[Def Tech BP10s],and in my old house it was OK in a smaller living room,but when I moved to a larger place things got much worse.
I also tended to bottom out my mains on certain DVDs[pop in Lost in Space se how yours doing],so I did what's logical,I exchanged my subs for 2 larger DIY ones,essentially qaudrupled the output of the bass.That is what I needed.
Since then I dumped my Def Techs and got bookshelves all around,sounds even better.I cut 'em at 80hz.

 

[Jeffrey Stanton]

I too have recently decided to go LARGE with my speaker settings. I have tried the SMALL settings for some time now and LARGE sounds better.

I do not buy the conventional wisdom anymore that one should have all speakers set to small and let the subwoofer handle everything under 90-100Hz. This may work out well for some but I do not think that this set-up is good for ALL systems.

My amp is a Yamaha DSP-A1. My mains are Klipschorns, rear surrounds are Klipsch KLF-30s. Center channels are Klipsch KLF-C7, JBL S-Center II and a Klipsch KSW-15 subwoofer (also on center). For LFE duty I have a Tumult in a 5 c.f. box with two 2200 gm PRs & powered with 1400 watt Mackie pro amp.

I fail to see the reasoning as to how SMALL speaker settings are going to make this system sound better. I have tried it both ways, and SMALL does not sound better...

Are you sure you are not setting your speakers to SMALL just because everyone else is?

 

[Kevinkall]

If your speakers can HANDLE all that bass...then by all means try it out. If it sounds good to you then keep it that way.

 

[Lewis Besze]

Are you sure you are not setting your speakers to SMALL just because everyone else is?

No! No offense but I'm beyond to "flip a switch see what sounds best" approach and hope for the best.I spent days to acoustically chart my room to place the sub and the rest of the speakers to achieve the best measured response I could get without room treatments,[that's next.]
I agree that small all around is not the best for all systems/rooms,but it is for the majority of them for a good reason.

 

[Michael R Price]

OK, ok, ok... if you have Klipschorns, then it's good to set them as large and roll in the sub under their cutoff. That's not fair even for a Tumult!

But I think Lewis is right. The inability of most main speakers to produce clean bass and all other frequencies at the same time makes it usually a good idea to use a small setting. Even relatively large main speakers...

 

[Topher]

What is the typical cut off for the "large" setting? I am unable to make any changes except large and small, and I am thinking that on my system small means 80hz cut off and large is 60hz. I could way off, because it is an older receiver and quite craptastic. I have Polk R30s up front and R20's in the back, CSi30 in the center and I have my mains and center on large and it sounds much better than when I used them on small. I haven't had a chance to calibrate with Avia yet, will be doing that as soon as I get that new receiver...

 

[Zack_R]

Assuming you can integrate the sub (good quality and extension) to minimize bass cancellation at the listening postion, I'd recommend a small setting.

If you can achieve good integration then to me it boils down to what speakers reproduce the bass the best. In most cases it will be the sub.

Im my situation, playing 1/12th octave test tones, speakers set to large and sub off, produces almost identical graphs down to the 38-40 Hz region as when the sub is on and fronts to small. But their is a huge difference in sound when listening to music between the two settings. This includes music with little bass extension. Obviously, if their is great bass extension in the music, it's no contest in my situation.

With the sub on and speakers to small the sub and small setting gives a much more detailed and fast bass response compared to my large speakers only setting. I attribute this to the sub be able to handle multiple bass frequencies much, much better than my mains only. If the music contains mostly kick drum bass then sometimes the differnces are not as great but throw in a heavy bass quitar and synthesizer and my mains muddy it up.

 

[DonnyD]

To me, it's about what sounds best to the listener. Having very strong mains, I now know my sytem sounds best with them set to large although I've had them set to small for several years now. No cancellation issues as the lfe is clean and loud and very powerful. The SVS I have has always been great but it seems I have been missing some of the upper bass that I'm now hearing/feeling out of my old JBL L100s.........
Theories about sound are one thing, what sounds good to an individual may certainly be another.

 

[Lewis Besze]

Theories about sound are one thing, what sounds good to an individual may certainly be another.

I agree, but to me the best I can "measure" is the best "sounding".
Lucky for me!

 

[Richard_M]

I would like to ask a question regarding the large concept of speakers and bass cancellation.

Zack re-your comments,

Assuming you can integrate the sub (good quality and extension) to minimize bass cancellation at the listening postion, I'd recommend a small setting.

I can understand this if your bass manager was set to BOTH or whatever it is called in each processor, but if you have it set to LFE only then would this not only play information designated to the LFE channel, and wouldn't the Xover on the sub be set high as the DD spec allows LFE information up to 120hz.

This always is very confusing to me; I am just trying to understand the concepts.

BTW all my speakers are set to small.

Richard

 

[Lewis Besze]

I can understand this if your bass manager was set to BOTH or whatever it is called in each processor, but if you have it set to LFE only then would this not only play information designated to the LFE channel, and wouldn't the Xover on the sub be set high as the DD spec allows LFE information up to 120hz

There is a lot of redundant information on the LFE channel.Of course ther is some that's exlusive to that channel but that's rear.Yes you right the sub's xover should be defeated or set to it's highest level,but since the mains "reproducing" several octaves of the bass located on both channels[content],it could create either duplication or cancellation depends what phase "relationship" the mains have with the sub.
In my case there was a severe cancellation between 40-80hz a full octave,and it sounded like crap too predictably.

 

[Richard_M]

Thanks for the reply Lewis

I take from what you are saying most of the problems caused by bass cancellations/duplication (Speakers set to Large)is from the mastering of the DVD.

BTW I found I had the smoothest in room response with my mains Xover at 100hz (Denon3802), 80hz caused 15+dB cancellations around 60-70hz. Only have 0/180 deg phase sw on subs.

Richard

 

[DonnyD]

I have the lfe setting on BOTH and was surprised at the increase in bass..... those old JBL L100 really kick with the extra signal. I also have Aura Pro shakers and still noted no cancellations evident. Watched TTT last night and it was another WOW time.......

 

[Zack_R]

If you do change your speaker setting from small + sub to large + sub, you will likely need to recalibrate in order to compensate for the added bass of your mains. A change to large + sub will likely give you a 3db or more increase in the bass range. This would be the equivalent of retaining the small + sub setting and boosting the sub-level another 3db or so.

 

[Ted_Wern]

I.m with you on that Donny....I also have my Paridgm 100's set to large. When you have speakers that can handle it, I think it is the best way to go. I too, had always set them to small because it seemed that this was the way most people had it. But if you have large floorstanding speakers, it seems you would be defeating that purpose by setting it on small. For me, the bottom line is....do what sounds the best to your ears.

 

[Michael R Price]

But, even most large floorstanding speakers can't handle it! That is the surprising part. I, for one, have tower speakers with two decently strong 8" woofers in vented enclosure tuned to 25Hz (best guess: similar to a Studio 100 or any of the many other "mostly full range" towers). They have bass out the wazoo, but not awe inspiring infrasonic sound like a subwoofer. And, playing heavy bass through them distorts the rest of the sound. A decent 12" sub has more clean output than the pair of these speakers. Klipschorns are another story.

 

[Lewis Besze]

I take from what you are saying most of the problems caused by bass cancellations/duplication (Speakers set to Large)is from the mastering of the DVD

Yes Dolby mentions this in their white paper under bass managment.

 

[Jeffrey Stanton]

So then what's the best way for me to get my Tumult integrated with the rest of my system? Try to use the Tumult for the octave below where the Klipschorns start rolling off (LARGE settings for MAINS, BOTH setting for LFE)? I've got a 50 Hz low-pass FMOD to use on the LFE to cut-out stuff above 50 Hz...I think the K-horns are good to around 35 Hz or so...

OR use a SMALL setting for the K-horns, no 50 Hz FMOD, and try to get the Tumult to take care of ALL the bass chores up to the LFE's crossover point?

The Tumult is in a 5 cubic ft. box, with two 2200 gm PRs. I think it's tuned to 19 Hz with this configuration (it's basically an Acoustiv Vision's Denali except with a 1400 watt Mackie pro amp instead of the 1000 watt Keiga plate amp. What I'm afraid of is that it may be tuned a bit on the low side for handling stuff between 50 and 100 Hz, and that the sub may be tuned more ideally for the octave BELOW that region (i.e, where the K-horns start rolling off).
Also, I do have a BFD hooked up to possibly tweak that region if required. But that would require boosting those frequencies with the BFD...


To further complicate matters, I think I want to try running my center channel FULL-RANGE instead of diverting center channel bass material to the MAINS or SUB as is most commonly done. I discovered that my Klipsch KSW-15 sub (which the Tumult replaced) works very well on the center channel to provide low-end support in addition to the other two center channel speakers I'm using (a Klipsch KLF-C7 and a JBL S-Center II, which don't have much if any bass capability to speak of).

I've also got KLF-30's for surrounds which can be set to LARGE, as they've got some decent bass-handling capability (two 12" woofers).

One of the reasons typically given for using SMALL speaker settings is that the mains (as well as center and surrounds) will need less juice to operate and the SMALL settings will lighten the load on the amplifier, allowing it to operate with less strain/distortion. However in this case, the speakers I am using are EXTREMELY efficient, 104 dB sensitivity for the K-horns (and I think 99dB for the KLF-30s), so it's not like they need a lot of watts to begins with. And the DSP-A1 amp I'm using puts out around 130 watts/channel, so I don't think it's straining a lot to power these particular speakers. Is a SMALL setting really warranted for this amp and speaker combo?

Any opinions as to how you would set this system up? Go SMALL and let the Tumult get everything under 100 Hz, or LARGE all around and let the Tumult get everything under where the K-Horns roll off?

One more thing: I haven't done any measurements yet, but I have a Rat shack SPL meter ready to use...just need to get a test tone disk. What would be the best disk to get for EQing purposes?

Lots of options, no? Any opinions on what might be the best way to set this system up?

Thanks,

Jeffrey Stanton