Speaker wire is speaker wire is speaker wire. Or is it? (1 Viewer)

[Javier_Huerta]

When I bought my last speaker set, the dealer tried to sell me a set of $90 interconnects and some speaker cable at $14 a meter.
I kindly said "no", and walked away.
I've been listening to many for and against arguments when it comes to interconnects. Frankly, I can't imagine how a couple of meters of wire can make that much of a difference.
Furthermore, being an engineer I'd accept the fact that some cables could transmit energy from one point to the other better than others. But not in the audible range (I'm thinking megahertz here).
I was wondering if someone could provide a link to actual data regarding this subject.
Thanks!

 

[Martice]

I've been listening to many for and against arguments when it comes to interconnects. Frankly, I can't imagine how a couple of meters of wire can make that much of a difference.

I have a wonderful experiment for you Javier. Why don't you get a pair of the cheapest speaker cable or the red and white ITC's that come with your usual audio gear and listen to them for a good while. Maybe 2 weeks or so. Then get some DIY cables from Canare or Belden and listen to the same material using them and see what you find.

Listening to arguments when it comes to ITC's is one thing but listening to the cables themselves in a system you're very familiar with including familiar source material, will give you the answers to your questions more soundly then any personal testimony or numeric facts can. This may not be a scientific method but it's the one that counts when your sitting back listening to your favorite tracks or in your case, your favorite mixes.

Good Luck.

 

[Saurav]

Witn line level interconnects, the reasons for them sounding different is fairly easy to explain. An interconnect works into a fairly high impedance, around 100Kohms or more in some cases. This impedance combines with the capacitance of the cable to form a low pass filter, cutting off the higher frequencies. If the cable has a high enough capacitance (which depends on cable construction and length) and it's driving a high enough input impedance, the cutoff frequency of this filter could become low enough to enter into the audible range. The math is pretty easy to do: f = 1 / (2*pi*R*C). Take 6 or 9 feet of something like Radio Shack Gold Series interconnects which someone has measured to be around 50pF/ft and hook that up to say a 100Kohm amp (very common figure for tube amps), and see for yourself what the filter's cutoff frequency is going to be.

Speaker cables are a different story and I don't totally understand the issues involved with power signals. I haven't really experimented with different speaker cables, so I have no opinions on whether they sound different or not. The best advice usually is to go listen for yourself, and set up a blind test if you're so inclined.

Edit: I think the math here is all wrong, so please ignore this post. HF rolloff requires a preamp with high output impedance, not an amp with high input impedance.

 

[Jami Bradley]

Not that I really understand this stuff, but...

I spent many hours trying to figure out what kind of speaker wire (normal, OFC, silver, etc.) to get and what kind of interconnects (if any!). By the time I finished, I decided to ignore all these details and just get one size larger gauge wire than was recommended. I ended up with very flexible, 12 gauge wire from Home Depot and used no interconnects. Going to 12 gauge increases the cross sectional area of the cable so much it seems to dwarf all of the other "tweaks" like OFC

I have been very happy, but I can't really compare with anything else. Installing the wires was a bit tiring, since I had bare wire - I would probable get connectors next time that have a lot of contact area with the wire and the terminals, just so my fingers could have a break!

Good luck,

Jami

 

[Shane Martin]

The quick prediction for this thread is both sides fight it out with the usual suspect stating WIre isn't wire and the other saying Wire is wire and you need to do some blind test to tell the difference and we argue about the blind test and we never get anywhere.

The best advice is to buy some wire/interconnects and have someone switch them out in your own system. Note which one you prefer after about 10 switches then decide. I've done this and every time I've come up with differences. Sometimes positive sometimes negative.

Before this thread goes the usual way, lets down continue down the same path of beating a dead horse.

 

[Saurav]

The quick prediction for this thread is both sides fight it out with the usual suspect stating WIre isn't wire and the other saying Wire is wire and you need to do some blind test to tell the difference and we argue about the blind test and we never get anywhere.

And what's wrong with that? We obviously have nothing better to do with our lives

 

[matthew_rm]

What if someone played a mono source with their mains. One wired with cheep stuff and the other wired with "high end" speaker cable? And then find out if the left or right sounds better. I think Im going to do that soon And later Biwire one

 

[Tom Brennan]

Whenever somebody calls speaker wire "cable" and patchcords "interconnects" I head in the opposite direction. This is like the middlebrow goons who call houses "homes". Just because we have to be exposed to advertising doesn't mean we have to talk like it.

 

[Terrell]

My advice is if you're spending a lot of money on equipment, at least buy some quality cables. Yes, I said cables. Leave the expensive crap at the dealer. Get good, but inexpensive cables, like an Audioquest Type 2 or Type 4 for your speakers. These are very inexpensive compared to those high cost cables, but they're very good.

If you want to hook up thousand dollar speakers with 25 cent/foot lampcord from a hardware store, go right ahead. But I'm not hooking up my $10,000 speaker system with cheap zipcord. I wouldn't do it even if I couldn't tell the difference.

 

[Bruce Chang]

Sound King 12awg is a great cable. It could be had at www.partsexpress.com I'm using Nordost superflatline biwire cable and I don't hear a difference.

 

[Blake R]

Try this.
Cable Nonsense

 

[Martice]

For the record, I do hear differences between ITC's and Speaker cables. However, how much of a difference I hear varies and it's not necessarily cost related either or for the better. I happen to be a personal fan of DH labs T-14 cables for bookshlef speakers but overall I like the DH Labs Q-10's. Especially when you have a sub for the lower octaves. I love the Harmonic Tech Prosilways MKII's but I get similar satisfaction from a pair of Canare LV-77's. Go figure huh?

In the overall scheme of things, the differences are subtle and not necessarily very critical to the enjoyment of music for the casual listener. If I walked out of the room for about 3 hours and came back to listen, I don't think I could tell what cables are in my system. However, as the listening session gets more critical and subtle nuances don't sound a certain way with personal source material, you may realize the subtle differences in certain cables.

In short. If you spend a lot of time between the L & R speakers and seek to bond with your recordings to the most subtle of nuances, I say that the differences betweeen cables can be realized and to some degree quite obviously.

However, if you are a casual listener and don't spend a lot of time in the sweet spot, then I wouldn't bother with the back and fourth ramblings of the "audiophile" because what they seek from their musical experiences can be compared to the casual driver and the race driver. Although they both drive cars, the objective and level of satisfaction are on two totally different plains of enjoyment.

For me? I don't know anymore if the details matter to me as much as they used to. My personal CD collection is not as large as I'd like and I think I may be debating equipment a little more then I need to and more attention needs to be applied to my CD collection.

 

[John Royster]

Javier,
You own electrostats right? These can and do present a very different kind of load to an amplifier. As such they "can" be more affected by speaker wire than others.
Try some out and see for yourself. Search the tweaks forum for a surprising test I did with speaker wire/bi-wiring. nevermind, got the thread for you...
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...hlight=reQuest
I hope we can stay on course with electrostats and speakerwire and not degenerate into the common mode.
-edit- grammar

 

[Rich Malloy]

An excellent discussion on the topic: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=154014

 

[Javier_Huerta]

John et al: thanks for your insights. I can see now how a "patch" cord could make a difference when compared to others (I actually use the Radio Shack Gold interconnects -oops, I used the "i" word!). Speaker cable... I'm not that sure.
I'm sorry I brought up such a heated subject without a preface: the thing is, I can't test speaker cables around here without buying them first -and, after I do so, I can't exchange them. Store policy. And besides, all I could get would be some Audioquests or Monster Cable. Nothing really fancy. If I didn't find any difference between them, I'd be stuck with a $100 cable I'd have no use for.
I assume from all the opinions that cables do vary, but a) not always for the better and b) the difference is not that noticeable. Which, if I understand correctly, means I should better concentrate on improving my system (adding a good sub for my ML's for example) and then, when I'm satisfied with the overall sound, try a tweak one at a time.
Thanks for your thoughts, and thanks a lot for not turning this thread into a bashing session for either side or the other.

 

[Kevin Farley]

We just went up from $8/50ft cable to 20$/50 feet cable (still radio shack) and the difference was NOT subtle. My wife and I looked at each other amazed. The sound was much richer and smoother; harshness in the midrange and high end was greatly reduced. I've studied electrical engineering, and learned a lot about cable. There are finite, discrete differences in capacitance, resistance, and inductance in different cables, and the results are very audible. Many dealers will allow you to try out some cables with a money-back guarantee. Some cable is very inexpensive, like the PBJ interconnects from Kimber, etc. At least, approach it with an open mind, and try it out. Then you will be satisfied one way or another.

 

[Larry B]

As I have been away on vacation I was unaware of the existence of this thread, and thus unable to join in. Now that I've returned, I'm going to continue with that strategy.

Larry

 

[Chu Gai]

First on interconnects, I posted the following in the tweaks section. To it, I'd like to add the following. Some companies desire to follow a theme with their cables, Alpha Goertz is an example. Speaking to the Alpha's their interconnects are based upon the same theme as their speaker cables, flat metal sandwiched between a dielectric. It can be looked upon as a capacitor that's been unwound. While this effectively reduces impedence, capacitance is quite high which 'theoretically' is opposite of what you want in an interconnect. Now in normal lengths, a meter or two, this is typically a non-issue, even with this piss-poor approach to designing an interconnect. However what it does indicate, is that in most normal cases, one can have widely different values of capacitance and still not hear any differences.
Now for my repost from tweaks...

The primary factor that is important in interconnects is capacitance. What excessive capacitance does is roll off the high end. If you're running long lengths (50'?) then assuming your pre/pro can drive this distance, it's critical. Also if your pre/pro is passive, low capacitance is important. You'll find products from companies that span several models at quite substantial price points differing in capacitance. The more expensive ones typically of lower capacitance. However there is a point where this does not matter one single iota in terms of audibility.

I have some quotes which I present for your consideration. Mr. Dunlavy has done much research on this issue. He compared the Radio Shack Golds with
a dozen or so premium priced interconnects. Consider what he has to say as this person is no slouch.
quote:

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Interconnects are particularly important to me because I have a passive pre amp based system. So, I have experimented a lot with interconnects (and continue to do so), including some costing more than $1000 per meter (which I used on dealer loan). As it turns out the high priced interconnects, a Transparent model, was surprisingly of very high capacitance, so they failed miserably in my system. The Radio Shack Gold easily out performed them.
(I believe Mr. Dunlavy's tests involved active pre amps where interconnect capacitance is not as critcal a factor as with interconnects for passives).
The Transparents, I'm sure, perform fine in an active set up, but at close to 300 pf a meter they will choke a passive set up (and at more than $1000 per meter may choke the owner as well). While capacitance is but one factor it is an important factor in any cable design whether that cable is to be used in an active or passive system. In my passive based system, Radio Shack Golds perform just well as the high priced, low capacitance, cables from Nordost, Audioquest, and
others. But it could be that I don't listen for the the types of differences that interconnects can make. Perhaps othere can hear differences in my own system that I don't hear or care about.

In addition, Radio Shadio Shack takes their interconnects *seriously*. If you request specs on their interconnects, they will provide you all the info, including tests that you would ever want to know. Try to get similar information from Monster Cable and others. Most often you will be shut out. Radio Shack capacitance rating for the Gold is a respectable 40pf a foot. There are many manufacturers out there with lower numbers, but they are priced through the roof and it gets to the point where low enough is low enough. Capacitance for Radio Shack Golds are low enough for either an active or passive system (if the interconnects are of a reasonable length).
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Also please consider the following which was obtained from audioreview.com.

quote:

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Product Model Year:
1997

Summary:
After I finished this, I realized it was a book, so bear with me.

Ok, I think very few people would argue with the statement that the cables included with your components are crap, and an investment in interconnects that are sturdy, corrosion-resistant, and well-sheilded is wise. Beyond that, things loose clarity, people start arguing over what is best, no one has any real numbers or measurements to back it up.

I do not consider myself a golden-eared audiophile by any means. What I am, however is an electrical engineer with a knowledge of the circuitry and principles behind the audio components we listen to and access to the equipment neccessary to put actual measurements behind my arguements. I understand what goes into hi-end components and I do not have any qualms spending the necessary amount of money to get good components. I also know that the more$=better equation is true, to an extent, but is also used to peddle outrageously expensive equipment with "benefits" that are beyond the perception of must of us mere humans. I've also observed that listening to equipment in your typical showroom is just about useless as the acoustics of most stores differ greatly from those of your living room. Generally, stuff actually sounds better once you've got it home. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that I've taken the approach of shopping with my brain an not so much with my ears. I have yet to be disappointed.

I originally purched a number of the Radio Shack cable when I bought the system that would take me through my college days. They worked quite well with my Kenwood/MTX setup, which was comparitively inexpensive, extremely loud, and tolerably noisy and imprecise; in other words, perfect for a college kid. Well, I've now graduated from college and moved up to a considerably better sounding Denon/Jamo system. As I was doing extensive research, some of it on this site, I decided to look into the issue of "better" interconnects.

At best, all I could find was conjecture. Every self-described audiophile had some pet "hi-end" cable that he would swear were the best that could be had and everything else was garbage. I couldn't pick out much of any agreement. Somewhat confused, I decided to start by taking a set of my good-'ol Rad Shacks down to the lab and throw them on the network analyser to see what their frequency response was. From there, I could determine what "flaws" they might have. What I saw was very revealing. I decided to test out to 50kHz, more than twice the audible range. At 50k the attenuation is less than .5dB, and the phase shift is less than two degrees. These distortions are going to be considerably less at 20k, which is the limit of human hearing. Quite simply, any alterations to the sound made by these cables is below the threshold of human perception. Period.

Interconnect cables are really fairly simple devices. The cable for each channel consists of two wires, one signal wire, and a ground shield surrounding it. The braided or foil outer conductor serves as a barrier to radiant waves and fields from the outside environment, shuntin most of them to ground, and reducing the overall noise to inaudible levels. Since these wires are not coiled, and essenially straight, inductance is essentially negligible. The only electrical parameter of a cable that has any bearng ic capacitance. Simply put, if you put two conductiors close to each other and you have a capacitance that is an inverse function of the distance between them. A piece of interconnect wire electrically looks loke a small capacitor across the output terminals of your source. A capacitor across two terminals is the simples form of a first-order low-pass crossover. By convention, it is considered to pass all frequencies below the -3dB "cutoff" point, and block all frequencies above it. There is no absolute cutoff point. For a 2 meter pair of Radio Shack cables, the capacitance is something in the 250-280 nF range, meaning that the -3dB "cutoff" point is somewhere in the neighborhood of 10Mhz. Way down at 20kHz, it is essentially non-existant. All crossovers also produce a phase shift, which starts at zero degrees and gradually increases as you approach the cutoff point. Once again, down at 20k, this is much less than you could possibly detect. By way of comparison, video cables are consrtucted the same way, with the exception that the plastic or foam surrounding the signal conductor is made thicker, thus increasing the distance between the conductors and decreasing the capacitance, thereby moving the cutoff point further up the spectrum. This is done to accomodate the much larger 6Mhz bandwidth of NTSC video signals. If you really want the piece of mind of having the best signal connection, buy the Radio Shach video cables and use them as audio interconnects. I've done this with the analog output from my DVD/CD player which I use to take advantage of the player's advanced sound processing capabilities for CDs.

As for exotic designs such as Kimber's twisted wires, I have no idea what benifit they could possibly have and can see where their shielding might be inferior. I showed a picture of a set of PBJs to my professor. This man holds a doctorate specializing in electromagnetic and transmission line theory and taught me everything I know about the subject. I asked him if there could be some solid theiry behind the design. He took one look at the cables and their price tag and laughed. Nuff said.

Basically, buy these cables, spend your money on components with large, clean power supplies and solid consruction and a pair them with a good line conditioner and be happy.

Strengths:
Sturdy, well-constructed, excellent audio characteristics, and all at a low price.

Weaknesses:
None

Similar Products Used:
cheap cables included with components

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I am not plugging the Radio Shack Golds. However if you consider the above information then it should allow you to make not only an informed shopping decision but perhaps save enough money to perhaps change your mind and 'upgrade' one of your components to something that was a tad out of reach all the while stepping deftly through the bull droppings that constitute the vast majority of cable reviews.

Speaker cables...what does one say here with your system Javier? I'm guessing your ML's have a pronounced frequency dip in the upper regions. To that end, I'd simply be looking for a 12 gauge or better copper with a bit lower inductance than would normally be present in conventional wires. Canare puts out some not too expesnive stuff, their Star-Quad should be quite adequate.

While the saying wire is wire is generally true, that does not imply that one select a poorly designed wire, make a run of 50-100 feet, and expect it to perform adequately.

John: how're things going with your ReQuests? Things getting better?

Javier: one thing I'd be on the lookout for with regards to speaker wires is just keeping tabs on your amp. A situation of high capacitance with the typically commensurate low impedence can provoke an amp into oscillation. That can result in the unit running hot, shutting down, sending some nasty signals to the speakers as they cries out due to the pain you've inflicted upon them.

 

[Chu Gai]

deleted...oops!

 

[John Royster]

John: how're things going with your ReQuests? Things getting better?

Just got The Police box set last night. spent three hours listening, marvelous.