Speaker Placement & Positioning [In My Situation] (1 Viewer)

[Damage Inc.]

Hello,

I bet this is probably the so manieth "speaker-placement"-topic,
but I do have some specific issues in my case since our humble theater is located in a rather tight attic.

Now, first of all, I might be kind of short into this,
but I know the basics of everything, like what's 5.1 and which speakers are there etc.
However, it's the small details that are messing with me, which is rarely explained.
I read manuals thoroughly and keep finding more and more about things.
But let me just start with the first question:

- The two front speakers, what should the distance between them or between one of them and the screen be?
I found that sometimes it should be an angle of like 30° from the center to the speaker.
Or other times it was also like 45° from speaker to speaker, I'm not sure which it was again.
I also just read that the front two speakers should be close to each other than the rear two speakers.
But is there a case of the front two being too close to or too far apart from each other?
Or is that all just a question of seeing what happens on the screen
and observe if the sound seems in the same location as the event on the screen?

- Then the center-speaker:
I guess it's usually the meaning to place it behind the screen since there is where the sound should come from.
But in my case the projection-screen isn't suited for that, neither is there room for it.
Below the screen is not really possible either, because of obstruction in the room.
Unless I'd move the whole projection up, but I'm already looking up a little too much.
Currently, though, it has been fixed above the screen and aimed down,
across the room and towards the viewing-position of course.
Is that OK to do? At Sony they said it's a good idea of me, but yeah...

- Actually, about the height:
Does it matter at what height the speakers are exactly, or is anywhere like halfway the room's height fine?
It's also kind of weird that my specific receiver has a height-setting for the rear-speakers, but not for any other speakers.
I guess that's because it's sometimes only done with the rear-speakers, but still...

- Then something else I was wondering about, which counts for all 4 outer speakers:
Do they need to be turned towards the viewer,
or can they simply be put flat against the wall like on most graphics and such things?
Note however, that currently the rear speakers are slightly turned towards the center of the room.
But then only so much that they are are aiming right past the viewer, sort of towards the front speakers.
Which are actually closer to each other than the rear speakers.
And that already explains the front's positions, they are flat against the wall pretty much.
Do they also need to be turned or does it already help they're closer to each other?


I think that's about it for as far positioning goes.
Another thing I'm wondering about though:

Does it matter if there is some stuff in the room, not between the viewer and the speakers
but rather say at the sides, between the front and the rear on one side for example.
So far I've enjoyed quite good surround sound, but I'm always afraid something's in the way.
Like for example when the receiver creates so-called "virtual speakers" in between the other speakers.
I'm thinking like, shouldn't the positions of those virtual speakers also be empty then?
Or is a clear way from the speakers to the viewer's ears enough to create those effects?

Oh and also, does it matter that the room/attic has an angled roof?
It's pretty open still, not too flat, but certainly different from a normal room.
Also not for the height that at some point, depending how far off-center the speakers are,
might almost touch the angled wall/roof.
I don't know if that, like the obstructions, would cause any issues with the spreading of the sound or anything?


I bet this is quite standard stuff, or actually maybe even unusual for some of you.
But I'm sure you know some answers/solutions to these issues.
It would help me out a lot if I could get it all set right!

Oh, by the way, if you need to see what it all looks like, I could post some photos if needed.
I was planning to take some pictures anyway, it's currently all kind of under construction.
Don't expect much of the looks though...


Thanks for reading,

 

[Damage Inc.]

Aw, doesn't anyone want address the questions and issues before I permanently place the speakers? :
I know I typed out a lot, but you can take it per part.

Well, at least point me at a page that covers these issues and I'll start walking over there.
I know some questions I have you probably answered over and over.
But, as noted, I'm in a different situation which might call for alternative measures.
That's why I started a separate thread, if I had an empty square or rectangle room,
I'd have just looked up the default tutorials.

 

[Robert_J]

Dolby Labs - Dolby - Dolby Room Layout and Speaker Setup Guide - Speaker Placement for Home Theater Surround Sound

As you can see there are ranges allowed. It depends total on your room so I say you should try different placement.

As for height, you should put the tweeters at ear level. If that isn't possible, then angle the speaker to point at your listening position.

-Robert

 

[Damage Inc.]

That interactive guide linked on that page is pretty awesome.
The page itself is very helpful too.

But yeah, the thing is that the location is an attic with angled "walls" which is the roof.
So the higher the speakers would be mounted, the closer to the center they would be.
Currently the 4 outer ones are like halfway up, about head-height when sitting.


You know what, I'll just give the measurements of the speaker-positions:

- The front 2, even though currently wider apart because they're not mounted yet,
would go flat against the wall next to the screen about 6ft apart.
- The rear 2 are currently (also) still standing loose on pre-existing shelves.
Only rather than flat against the wall they're turned towards the center/viewer.
These are currently almost 12ft apart.
- The center-speaker is above the screen turned down, aimed diagonally through the room.
It's a little over 7ft high, but only about 1ft above the screen or at least the widescreen-image.
- And the subwoofer is under the RS-speaker... (in a corner though)
(Note: The viewer is usually around the middle of the room as the seating is not "permanent".)

Note though, that the rear-speakers have been set to 'middle' in the receiver, which indicates the angle they are positioned at.
So it should be OK, but I don't know if it would work correctly as they recommend putting them almost at the sides of the viewer(s) at Dolby.
But if they'd have to be mounted at the sides of the viewing-position, it would probably be too close and perhaps too loud.
(They cóuld go farther away at the sides, but it would have to be strangely low down the angled "walls" and there is no room there.)
Plus the position might vary even more compared to them being in the rear "corners", as the viewing-position might change even a couple of feet every time.

So is this a good setup or are there things that should really change?


And some other "wonderings" I have:

1. Would it matter if for example the rear-speakers would be slightly uneven in height?
And I don't mean by the millimeter but like a couple of inches...
2. Also for those, would it matter they aren't higher than the front-speakers unlike they recommend at Dolby?
(Note: They áre set to 'low' in the receiver, so I guess it's OK?)
3. Would it matter if the front-speakers would be a little closer to the viewer than the screen?
4. If those would stay on the wall, would it matter that they are aimed past the viewer
(straight towards the rear-wall) rather than aimed at the viewer?

 

[David Willow]

Can you post a few pictures? I'm terrible and reading long descriptions

 

[Damage Inc.]

Hah, it's quite simple actually.

But I can upload 1 photo I already took for now.
Tell me if you want photos of the rear or other views (you describe them) and I'll make them.
I'm not sure if the rear 2 would fit at once, but I could make it work.

Photo Front Speakers

So here is one of the front 3 speakers and the screen.
Just ignore the washed-out image, the light is on and it's a photo of a projection.
I even just brightened the photo to make it a little clearer.
Also, the screen has been replaced with a wider one to give some room for 16:9-video.

Anyway, the 2 front-speakers you see standing at the far outsides would probably go on the wall next to the screen.
If you take the point on the right where it changes from the dark-green plates to the brick wall
and the pipe behind the right speaker, take the center right in between those points
and there is where the speaker would go.
The same counts for the left side.
And obviously the center-speaker in the top of the photo.

Also, the photo is taken pretty much from the viewing-position, maybe slightly behind it.
Except the height is from standing-position, I guess a little hunched though.
But the front-speakers are around the height of my head when I sit down.

 

[Robert_J]

Bring the left speaker forward. Put it on a stand or something so that it is even with the right speaker. Have your wife, friend, a total stranger sit in your seat and measure the distance from their head to each speaker. In your receiver, you should have some distance or delay settings. This will time align all speakers so it will sound like they are in a circle and you are sitting in the center. When that is done, set the levels with a calibration DVD or your receiver's test tones and an SPL meter. These two things will provide the biggest improvement even if your speakers aren't in the optimum locations.

As for 'low' and 'middle' that you mentioned, I don't have a clue. My Pioneer doesn't have those settings so I can't help.

-Robert

 

[David Willow]

Is the picture going to be that size on the screen? If so, why not roll the screen up a and put the center under the screen.

What are the half walls for? Can they be removed? Either way, I suggest putting the L/R speakers next to the screen. They don't have to be super wide, and in this case, it may be better (because of the slope of the walls).

Experiment until you find the best place.

 

[Damage Inc.]

Well, as said the screen has been replaced by a slightly wider one,
which because of the angled roof is also placed a little lower.
Then also the projection has been made bigger, and even though the "flatter" 16:9-video wouldn't fill up all that,
the 4:3-video, which some movies and especially concerts have, does fill the whole screen.
So, it's a good idea to perhaps put the speaker down below,
I've thought about before, but the position might be a little awkward, depending how low it would have to be.
The speaker sounds pretty good from this high, sounds like it comes from the screen when aimed down.
I was just thinking if it's OK to do, if it might really not be the meaning to put it there.
Plus, it's pretty much stuck to the wall now...

But for the front-speakers, you suggest putting them right next to the screen.
Does it matter then if they are flat against the wall and aiming past the listener?

And what things do you exactly mean by "half walls"?
Oh, you mean like the white things down below, or something else?

 

[David Willow]

I don't know what to call them. The partitions? Maybe that's a better word

Let me see a picture with the new screen. I'm basing my comments on the screen I see you the old picture.

 

[Damage Inc.]

OK, I could go and make some photos now.
Do you (or does anyone else) need to see some more of the setup?

But if you indeed mean the white things in the bottom of the photo:
Those are like "fences" to keep people from plummeting into an 8-foot hole.
Since the stairs to the attic is there.
They might look a little obstructing, but it's not that bad, no problem for the speakers anyway.
I guess you'd suggest using some speaker-stands or something like that otherwise right?
Or else just to put the center-speaker lower, but yeah... only thát is not possible. :


Edit:

So here are 2 more photos.
One of the front-side as it is currently and one of the rear-side.

I kind of forgot to turn on the projector to show what it would cover if you did want to see that.
But it's not really necessary, I might just do that later.

The photo of the rear-side shows the same speakers on the left and right of course.
The subwoofer under the right-surround and the receiver (and players) by the left-surround.
The previous screen right beside the subwoofer and lot of random stuff in the middle.

 

[Robert_J]

SPL Meter - link Sound Pressure Level Meter. It measures how loud something is. If you used your ears to set the levels that is like guessing. Your ears aren't very accurate.

It sounds like the high, medium and low are settings for off-axis response. If your speakers are high, then the receiver will boost the treble to compensate for not having the speaker pointed directly at you. I think if you do have them "high" but angled down towards the listening position then you should set them on low.

-Robert

 

[Damage Inc.]

Oh right, I know them but unfortunately I don't have one (yet?).
And yeah, it's kind of like guessing, but I have a great ear for detail being a musician, plus I'm very critical.
I do rely on hard statistics though, but I don't have a meter at this time...

Also, it's annoying the test-signals are not all the same... like frequencies and such.
I mean, some sound higher or clearer than the other ones.
Which probably adds to the difference in the way it sounds.
Making me think the volumes weren't even, but when listening to actual performances,
I actually made them sound wrong rather than correcting them during the test.
As the levels sound fine at neutral balances, changing them one step makes it sound off.
So it seems for some reason the audio-tests aren't very accurate, at least not by even a trained ear.


By the way, don't get the settings mixed up:
The 'high' and 'low' are for the actual height of the rear-speakers.
But the other 3, 'side'/'middle'/'rear', are for the horizontal angle.

Ah, I looked up the PDF-manual on the official website.
If you want to have a look at it, on page 20 (also the PDF-page), it describes what I meant.
But I see 'rear' is actually called 'behind', but that's almost the same I guess.
And if you look at the "zones" in the graphic, my speakers actually fall in "zone" B.
Only apparently the setting only affects the "virtual speakers"-effect, I only just noticed.

But thát makes me wonder...
Would it be a bad thing they stand there when I would turn the "virtual speakers" off?

And actually, the next page explains about the height-thing too...

 

[David Willow]

OK, based on the new pictures, I still say put the speakers on the side of the screen. The Center may have to stay up high - just make sure it is angled directly at the primary seat. The dialog should seem as if it is coming directly from the screen. If it does not, then you need to move it down.

If you can mount the side surrounds on the sloped ceiling on either side of the primary seating area. You can get brackets to do this (usually from the speaker company).

Did you say you were getting new speakers?

I'm a musician as well (or so I think). There is no way I can balance my speakers by ear. SPL meter is necessary. Use the internal tones from your receiver. They will all sound the same (except the sub).

Oh yeah, probably not a good idea to remove the partition (or fence or whatever

). Don't want anyone falling down.

Damage Inc. Is that a reference to Metallica? Gotta love Metallica!!!

 

[Damage Inc.]

OK, and can the front-speakers stay straight?
Or do they still have to be turned/rotated towards the center?

And unfortunately, there isn't a handy way to mount the rear-speakers to the sides.
Because as you might see, space is very limited, I still have to be able to move around there.
Very maybe it's possible, but there might not be enough room.
Is it a terrible way to put them the position they are now then?


And no, these speakers are staying for now.
They might be quite cheap/mediocre compared to what's considered "Home Theater Grade" around here.
But I was quite surprised how well they reproduce audio from both CDs and DVDs,
with some help from the higher quality receiver of course.
I also have some Sonys lying around, but those are terrible.
At least for music, it sounds way too muffled, dry and such issues.
I think they were a set with the Sony center-speaker I use, I got them from someone.
They might be more specifically for TV or movies, but they just have 1 small speaker per box.
The center-speaker sounds fine, then it's only active with movies and luckily not music.

And HECK YEAH, Damage Incorporated!

In fact, I calibrated the equalizing to MetallicA-CDs, because I know how they're supposed to sound through and through.

 

[David Willow]

I wouldn't angle them too much. They can be toed in slightly to point toward you primary seat. Here's a few guides to look at.

Dolby - Dolby Room Layout and Speaker Setup Guide - Speaker Placement for Home Theater Surround Sound
THX Home Theater Speaker Setup

Putting the side surrounds behind you is not the worst thing. It should sound OK. Again, you may need to experiment a bit.

 

[Damage Inc.]

That should help.
The first link was posted by Robert_J too.
Didn't see the THX-one yet...

But, isn't the most important thing that the speakers are pretty much aiming their audio
towards or past the listener though (as direct as possible)?
And then also from the right direction of course.
Cause I basically made my rear-speakers throw their audio right past me, kind of aiming towards the screen.
But with the goal being not too directly aimed at the listener.
Plus I boosted the rear-volume a little bit, obviously to make sure it doesn't sound too weak.
I guess it also helps my receiver has those options for rear-positioning.
And hopefully it actually does correct the signals per setting.

By the way, it also has a 'screen-depth'-feature to "create the sensation of the audio coming from the screen".
But, even when I just got the center-speaker and temporarily put it at the bottom of the screen on something
and the front-speakers were actually one the wall, I could barely hear a difference.
Maybe it's just very subtle...
It's also hard to compare since I have to switch the setting on the receiver itself, which is in the left-rear-corner of the room.
And I can't sit down in the middle and switch it with the remote (I think) or something like that.

 

[David Willow]

I'm not a fan of things like "screen depth" and such. Speaker placement and calibration are much more important.

Like I said, experiment until it sounds good to you. Have fun.

 

[Damage Inc.]

Yeah, I like to keep it as natural/pure as possible too, but if it adds something positive, I would use it.
The settings for that specific 'screen depth'-thing are 'off', 'mid' and 'deep'.
And I just keep it at 'mid' for movies to kind of make up for it's high position.
Even though it doesn't sound really different, it might help.

But yeah, I've been playing around with these speakers for weeks or even months now, I'm never sure when it's right.
Cause I just like it to have a correct setup you know.
All the variables are just always driving me insane. XD
Cause I'm pretty much a perfectionist, with limits.

 

[CB750]

I have looked at your picture and read what others have wrote. I used to tell my friends that in an ideal world we would build our listening room now HT first and build the rest of the house around it. For most of us that is not possible.

However, in looking at your picture it seams that your HT is a work in progress. I notice a lot of hard surfaces brick wall, hard ceilings. Is this the final condition of the attic or is more work to be done. I say this because it appears that you have a very lively room without much sound adsorbing materials. So if you settle on a permanent placement of your speakers now things could change if you change the properties of the room.