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Tim Hoover

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Referring way back to the original post, U2's Best Of 1980-90 was not, AFAIK, digitally remastered. The original masters appear because the band wanted them to sound the same as when the songs were originally released.

Now onto the current topic: As an anal-retentive musician myself, I'm also somewhat appalled by some of today's recordings. Drums sound over-compressed and mushy, bass guitar is bloated and indistinct, and lead vocals are often swamped in reverb. It also annoys me when you can tell exactly which songs were recorded in different sessions - usually by differences in drum tonalities. Now, I know that is something that's a pain to fix, but with today's multimillion dollar album budgets I'm sure a little headway can be made...

I'm also surprised by some of the mistakes that are left in albums. I'm not talking about the ones that give an album character, but rather technical snafus. Take Live's "The Distance To Here" album, with no less a personage than Tom Lord-Alge behind the board: On the song "Voodoo Lady" there is a line in which the vocals don't trigger the compressor until the third word, causing a large volume shift. It's pretty easy for the average listener to hear. You'd think that someone would've caught it in production.
 

KeithH

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Tim, I am still surprised by how many recordings have obvious distortion in them. I mean buzzing, static, and the like. Now, some of these are older recordings, but not all are. Once I upgraded speakers in my main stereo system, this distortion became obvious. There is nothing wrong with the speakers. These speakers, being very revealing, make the distortion obvious. However, once I know what to listen for, I can hear it even on a boombox.
 

Lee Scoggins

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How did that logan/tube setup sound? I'm looking for a good amp for some reQuests and the idea of bi-amping the panel/woofer with a tube/solid state intrigues me.
John, I have heard the Martin Logans with Audio Research tube amps and been impressed. I wonder if you might check out their new "exposed glass" tube amps. These were actually designed by Bill Johnson himself and sound great. My only question is how much power you might need, ie. the VS55 or VS110. Just keep in mind that ARC is super-conservative with its power ratings and they are usually high current designs anyway.
I also understand that the Odyssey amps work well with electrstatics, but I have not heard them yet.
 

KeithH

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Lee,
Poo poo on you. Cables don't make a difference. ;) Seriously though, it is refreshing to hear such sentiments about cables.
Charles,
On the subject of cables, what were you using before the PBJs?
 

Chas_T

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Jun 1, 2002
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John:
How did that logan/tube setup sound? I'm looking for a good amp for some reQuests and the idea of bi-amping the panel/woofer with a tube/solid state intrigues me.
The setup was as follows off the top of my head. It was a 10 minute audition so I did not document the equipment list like I normally would if I was really in the market to buy that level of equipment. If the model numbers are not correct, excuse the errors.
Speakers - Martin Logan Prodigy's
Mark Levinson Model 32 Pre/pro
Transport Mark Levison DAC 385
18" Rel Sub
Acoustic Research Model 120 Classic Mono blocks
Cables larger then my arms :)
My only comment is I was higly impressed with the sound reproduction. Maybe that is an understatment. I only listened to one tune, due to a few people in and out of the room. If I had the cash flow and was ready to step up to that level of equipment, this setup would be high on my list.
One thing about these pieces that I realized immediately is the size and proper listening room needed to appreciate the full scope of it's musical capabilites. You would need a true dedicated room only for listening and enjoyment. That setup needed lots of of room to breathe not only for setup purposes, but to fully appreciate its sonic abilities. It was an imposing setup.
This shop is run by some guys in their mid 40-50's and are devout 2 channel audiophiles. They are very adamant music lovers.
I also took a few minutes to listen to a pair of $7500 speakers. Unfortunately the brand name escapes me at the moment, and although they were very, very nice, I'd have to put my Studio 100's on a price versus output against them any day of the week. That taught me something which was large dollar amounts do not mean a superior product when you consider the end result.
The Logan/Levinson setup compared to the Studio 100's? Awwww.. No comparison. NYC verus Fargo SD?? NO offense against Fargo. :)
 

Chas_T

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Tim:
Wow, how refreshing. Thank you for this. Now if we could just move this to the Tweaking section. You see I am badly outnumbered there by the "cables don't make a difference" crowd...
I am actually quite astounded by the difference in reproduction of these Kimber PBJ's and how it changed the entire system. The bass is tighter, the highs are much more detailed and the mids seem to come alive as I am hearing a lot more detail then before.
I was never really convinced that cables made a large difference, but in this setup, it was sooooooo cost effective.
I made the cable changes from the 555ES to the pre-first. There was a difference that was noticable, but I can't say I was thinking it was huge.
After listening to the same CD through one time, I made the other connections which was from the Parasound Pre to the Aragon 8002. When I made that change, it was evident the $250 that I spent was well worth the investment.
Another point is cable break in time. The more that I listen, it seems it actually gets a bit better as the hours go by.
I asked myself time and time again, is this a mental/ear-lucination? I do not think it is. The Kimber Kables made a significant difference in this setup.
Yet, as I was in the shop yesterday Lee, I held a pair of used speaker cables at a price of $2100. Even though my arm grew tired from the weight of the cables, I don't think my wallet could stand the loss of weight at that level. Now, if I was only 7'5" and played NBA basketball, they just might be on my equipment list. :)
 

Tim Hoover

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Chas, I looked in the liner notes to the U2 Best Of after reading your reply and found that, sure enough, "all tracks have been digitally remastered from original master tapes where possible" right there in plain type :b

I still think that they didn't do any major corrective work - just a general cleanup job. I believe this because each song sounds different, with the remastering preserving the tonality of the original recording without making every song sound alike.

I've probably fumbled the ball on this one, too. Don't you hate those days when every word you say turns out to be utter bulls--t???
 

Chas_T

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Keith:
On the subject of cables, what were you using before the PBJs?
Well, this is a great question. I would have asked the same thing!! :) I was using AR cables across the board Keith before I made the change.
When I connected the system for the first time, I used cables that I had in my spare parts box of Radio Shack from pre to amp and AR cables from 555ES to pre. Not happy. Then I bought 1 set of AR cables to make them the same manufacturer. I still was not happy.
My experience told me that although my equipment list is far from high end audio, I truly thought it could do more. To be honest, it was bugging the hell out of me. I am sure you can relate to that statement.
So, as I am tweaking this particular system with the 555ES, I had to take the step and try for better reproduction. I just thought it was capable of more. That was the reason for the Kimber purchase.
I've also tried methods of making the room itself "sound friendly" and I am still experimenting with that aspect of the tweak. As you know, that has a huge effect on the sound reproduction.
If it's any consolation, I am still using AR Concert Series 16 ga. bare speaker wire. :) Hmmm. Any suggestions?? :)
 

Chas_T

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Jun 1, 2002
Messages
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Tim:
Chas, I looked in the liner notes to the U2 Best Of after reading your reply and found that, sure enough, "all tracks have been digitally remastered from original master tapes where possible" right there in plain type
I did not take the time to open the linar notes, but as I wrote, I thought it had that small little stickie on the front that it was remastered. However, you could have fooled me after one listen through the 2 disc set. I do love U2's compositions. They are a very, very talented band with some integrity to boot.
One of the items that still bugs me is when the technology changed from vinyl to CD are large format album covers. I would spend hours reading and viewing the information. I do miss the hell out of album covers, but of course, there are drawbacks to the size for storage and other reasons. Many of those covers were works of art weren't they?
Also, I did not have to reach in my drawer and find my damn glasses to read all the credits and technical details due to the small print on the booklets in the CD's. :)
Cheers.........
 

KeithH

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Charles, the Acoustic Research cables are well-regarded as far as budget cables go. I have not used them, but many recommend them over Monster cables sold at Best Buy and Circuit City. The PBJ is a well-regarded cable, and I am not surprised that you find it to be better than the Acoustic Research cables you were using.
As for speaker wire/cables, if you ask 100 people, you will probably get 100 different suggestions. ;) I am using BetterCables Premium speaker cables in my two stereo systems. They are quite good for the money. This cable was discontinued a few months ago, and BetterCables introduced two new models at that time. I have not heard anything about them. See www.bettercables.com for more information.
 

Chas_T

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Keith.. Thanks for the info on the Better Cables. I purchased some cables from them in the past, but never, ever bought speaker cables besides the normal AR or the XP Monster (??)series that Best Buy offers.

Do you think the investment is waranted due to the sonic difference that you can achieve? I don't want to turn this into a cable thread, because this is a battered subject, but alas, a good one too.

However, personally, have you been able to discern a difference moving from basic cabling when you switched to the Better Cable product? I always trust your judgement.
 

KeithH

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Charles, I went from Monster XP wire (the cheap stuff) to the BetterCables cables, but I also tried some more expensive Monster speaker cables in between (biwire and straight cables). The BetterCables were easily the best. Of course, there are a lot of other well-known brands out there. I just found the BetterCables cables to beat the readily available stuff at Best Buy, Circuit City, and Tweeter, and the price of the BetterCables cables was reasonable.
 

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