Sony Wega XBR convergence and other picture issues (rant) (1 Viewer)

[TonyTone]

When I display the VE dot pattern on mine, convergence is perfect throughout most of the screen; there is some very minor convergence issues along the edges (2-3 dot rows) but some very noticeable misconvergence in the upper right corner. So, I had a Sony-authorized repair person come out to try to fix the convergence; he was able to fix the problem in the upper right corner a bit, but nowhere near the near-perfect convergence found throughout the rest of the screen. So, is it possible to get near-perfect convergence on the Wega XBRs? I ask because I've heard of some who either got sets that didn't have anywhere near the bad convergence I described, or was able to get it fixed.

After he had adjusted the convergence as best as he could, I noticed that the VE test images seemed soft, if not a bit fuzzy, so I decided to pop in SW:TPM to see whether something else got messed up or if it was just my eyes. So I popped the disk in, started it up and, lo and behold, now there is a very faint black horizontal line (almost shadow-like) running the entire width of the top of the letterbox image, about 1/8" below the top border of the letterbox image. On the bottom edge of the letterbox, extending horizontally from the lower right corner of the letterbox image for about 3 inches, is a very light-greenish band about 1/8" thick, tapering in thickness as it extends horizontally from the lower right corner. Now I know both anomalies weren't there last night (let alone any time before that), so I told him that perhaps he did something (inadvertantly or otherwise) that caused these things to suddenly appear. Of course he said he didn't do anything other than what I had asked of him and that even then it wouldn't have caused the issues in question. He even had the nerve to insinuate that the black and green lines had always been there and that I hadn't noticed them until now. Yeah, right--believe me, those two anomalies are so obvious that if they had been there from day one (I bought it 11/2001) I would have noticed them a long time ago. To his credit (and I give him very little, at that) he does see what I'm talking about, but that's very little consolation, as I will soon describe.

You want to know how clueless this guy was? First, he says that the faint black and green lines are "within Sony specs". After I argued that only an idiot would accept viewing those ugly lines as "normal", he goes on to say that perhaps it's the DVD movie that's causing those lines at the top and bottom of the letterbox image. Can you believe that? In any case, I decided to humor him and give him the benefit of the doubt so I popped in some other DVDs--Toy Story, The Little Mermaid. Of course, these two also exhibited the same trait so I asked him, "So your telling me that all 80+ of my DVDs have been designed so as to show the same defects too?" I asked him this because he said that it couldn't be the TV that's doing it. But wait--there's more! He told me to put up a full-screen 4:3 image, so I did--of course the lines weren't there but that didn't matter to him; as far as he was concerned, if those two lines didn't show up on that full-screen 4:3 image, it can't be the TV that's causing the problem.

And no--the top black line I described isn't the Trinitron wire; one, the line in question is a bit thicker and "fuzzier", plus when I pop in a DVD with a different aspect ratio than the one before, the line is there but in a different location. Also, it is not my DVD player because, a) it does the same thing when I play a DVD in my PS2 (also hooked up to my XBR450); b) I saw the same faint black line during a LOTR commercial (which displayed a snippet of the movie in letterbox format, with text beneath the letterbox image--I guess you could call it one of those "pseudo" letterbox commercials) on the local Fox affiliate; and c) I popped TPM in another DVD player connected to a different TV and I didn't see the black line nor the green band mentioned earlier.

So, what it comes down to is this, at least for you Wega XBR450 owners--when viewing a DVD letterbox image (anamorphic or not), are the top and bottom edges of the letterbox sharp, i.e., no "shadowing" or faint colored banding near the upper and lower letterbox edges?

I apologize for such a long post, but I just had to let off some steam; I didn't like the repairman insinuating that those lines had been there all the time and that I only noticed them just now. He got me upset even more when he told me that I didn't notice it before because I wasn't really looking for it back then; well gee--I wasn't specifically looking for it today either and yet I could see it plain as day.

Well, I could go on and on about this guy but I've ranted long enough. Hopefully someone on this forum can address my issue and either tell me that's just the way it is with the Wegas (I still can't accept those lines, especially since they weren't there until today), or agree with me. I plan on calling Sony back anyway but wanted some anecdotal experiences regarding the issues I described in this thread.

 

[JenaroM]

I have also a XBR450 and what I seem to have is that the first line of pixels adjunct to the black bars (top and bottom) seems to be brighter than the rest of the picture. I don't know if this is the same problem but a different variation.

 

[TonyTone]

I have also a XBR450 and what I seem to have is that the first line of pixels adjunct to the black bars (top and bottom) seems to be brighter than the rest of the picture. I don't know if this is the same problem but a different variation.

I know of what you're referring to; however, I don't have that particular problem (thank goodness). The issues with my TV concern the thin fuzzy dark line (almost shadow-like) visible in a letterbox image, running the entire width of the screen approx. 1/8" below the upper edge of the letterbox; and a 3" long greenish tinged 1/8" stripe extending horizontally from the lower right corner of said letterbox image. Both anomalies are evident only when viewing letterbox images from DVD, regardless of DVD player or movie.

My gripe regarding my initial post in this thread was that it wasn't there the day before the repair tech came out to try to fix the convergence, let alone anytime before that, and yet the repair tech was saying that first, I must have not noticed it all this time (implying that it was probably there from day one and that if I had noticed it then I would have placed a warranty claim at that point) then saying that it was within specs, then saying that it must be the DVD movie that's generating those two anomalies. Now, who wouldn't get frustrated at this poor line of reasoning?

 

[Joe Schwartz]

Tony, I don't know about your 3" long green line, but SW:TPM has always had faint light and dark lines running across the top and bottom of the image, just inside the letterbox. Those lines are caused by edge enhancement. Here's a screen capture from my DVD-ROM drive:

Here are enlargements of the top and bottom left corners, where the horizontal lines are clearly visible:

 

[JasonRH]

TonyTone,
Do you mean the "shadow" line is within the picture itself or within the black bar portion of the letterbox picture??

As far as the line you're seeing in the lower right hand corner it's pretty clear that when the tech adjusted the upper right corner convergence, the lower right corner convergence was changed. None of these adjustments are independent of one another. You see it in the letter box picture because you're seeing the edge of the picture that is normally hidden within the overscan portion when you view 4:3 material (I assume you see it when performing the raster squeeze?).

None of these sets are perfect. If the "lines" you are describing are like the ones in the pics that Joe posted than I've seen those on every Wega I've seen so far - I wouldn't worry about those.

As far as getting convergence "perfect", I would highly doubt that's possible. It would require adjustment of the deflection yoke and not just service menu adjustments. I doubt your run-of-the-mill tech would even know how to do it.

 

[TonyTone]

Joe--yes, that is exactly what I'm talking about. Now, do a lot of DVD movies have EE, because in a somewhat random sampling of my movie collection I see the exact EE anomaly that is shown in your first SW:TPM screenshot example. Are there a few mainstream DVD movies that don't have EE? I ask because I notice similar upper and lower horizontal EE lines on Pocahontas.
JasonRH--the lines are within the picture as Joe so clearly clarified for me. You mention that you've seen those lines on every Wega--does that imply that the problem is symptomatic only on Wegas? If Joe's statement about the lines being EE artifacts is correct, wouldn't one notice these lines on just about every HD-type TV, if not all TVs?
Even if those lines had been there all this time, I just find it a bit coincidental that after the tech mucked around with the set, those lines now are really noticeable--in a dark room, e.g., lights out, there is practically no way I could not have notice them beforehand.
As far as the convergence issue is concerned--you may very well be right; I looked at the "green" (sometimes it takes on a light blue color, I guess depending on the scene) line, and it does look to be a convergence issue as I can see the separate red/green/blue vertical lines in that particular corner of the letterbox image. Apparently, the tech didn't do a proper job of adjusting the convergence (he did remove the back cover so I assume that he was messing with the deflection yoke, if indeed that is what needs to be adjusted in order to properly adjust convergence), and even after I told him to put it back to where it was before, he apparently didn't get that right, either. FWIW--the convergence near the lower right corner of the screen wasn't that bad; if anything, it was as near-perfect as "near-perfect" can be, especially compared to the out-of-whack convergence in the upper left corner that I wanted the tech to adjust in the first place.
I sorta lost you on your "view 4:3 material" comment--I noticed the convergence issue in the lower right corner while watching ST:TPM (not the only one to exhibit it, BTW); would it be considered 4:3 material? My Wega did auto-adjust to 16:9 upon detecting that TPM was anamorphic, if that means anything.

 

[Joe Schwartz]

Joe--yes, that is exactly what I'm talking about. Now, do a lot of DVD movies have EE, because in a somewhat random sampling of my movie collection I see the exact EE anomaly that is shown in your first SW:TPM screenshot example. Are there a few mainstream DVD movies that don't have EE? I ask because I notice similar upper and lower horizontal EE lines on Pocahontas.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of DVDs with edge enhancement. You might not notice it until it's pointed out to you, and then you can't help seeing it. It's much easier to see on large TV's, of course, and it's particularly noticeable in SW:TPM.
Bjoern Roy has an excellent web page describing and illustrating examples of edge enhancement:
http://home.t-online.de/home/bjoern....ml/Page_01.htm
He also lists three DVDs with no edge enhancement: Braveheart, The Insider, and Titanic.

 

[JasonRH]

Tony,
What I meant by viewing 4:3 material not showing the corner misconvergence is that when you view 4:3 (full screen) material on your 4:3 set, then the extreme edges of the picture are hidden past the edges of your viewable area in an area referred to as "overscan". The purpose of the overscan area is to hide the flaws inherant at the edges of programs. You see it on dvd's that are played in 16:9 enhanced mode because the raster is squeezed and the edges are no longer hidden behind the tv edges (where the screen goes behind the cabinet). The edges become visible and so do the defects. Someone else may have another idea but that's my opinion on what's happening, for what it's worth.

 

[TonyTone]

What I meant by viewing 4:3 material not showing the corner misconvergence is that when you view 4:3 (full screen) material on your 4:3 set, then the extreme edges of the picture are hidden past the edges of your viewable area in an area referred to as "overscan". The purpose of the overscan area is to hide the flaws inherant at the edges of programs. You see it on dvd's that are played in 16:9 enhanced mode because the raster is squeezed and the edges are no longer hidden behind the tv edges (where the screen goes behind the cabinet). The edges become visible and so do the defects. Someone else may have another idea but that's my opinion on what's happening, for what it's worth.

That's what I figured, and if indeed this is what happens to the edges (especially the top and bottom edges, in my case) when viewing 16:9 enhanced letterbox images on TVs like the Wegas--well, let's just say that the tech didn't believe that such was the case. He kept insisting that the anamorphic letterbox image displayed in 16:9 enhanced mode on my Wega was only a part of the entire image, in essence contradicting your statement that the anamorphic image is being "squeezed" into the roughly center portion of the screen. IOW--the tech kept insisting that the black bars were actually part of the enhanced letterbox image.

I guess what it comes down to is this: when watching a letterbox anamorphic DVD on a 4:3 TV that can display in 16:9 enhanced mode like my Wega, are all 480 scan lines displaying the image itself, or do they include the "bars" also? I thought that when in squeeze mode, all 480 lines were being "squeezed" into the letterbox area, and that there aren't any scan lines being drawn above and below it.

Hopefully someone can either clarify or correct me in this regard...

 

[Brian S]

Tony,

When doing the anamorphic squeeze, the TV squeezes all "480" scan lines into a 16:9 image. Whether or not all 480 lines contain actual "information" is dependant on the aspect ratio of the material itself. Many movies have ratios greater than 16:9, and so some of the 480 lines (at the top and bottom) will be black bars.

Most TV's (XBR's included), do not actually show the entire raster image. There is a function called blanking (for top, bottom, left, and right) that hides the edges of the raster, and any anomalies that go with them. This is seperate and different than overscan, though that can serve the same purpose when viewing material that fills the entire 4:3 screen.

 

[JasonRH]

Tony,
Like Brian said, it depends on the aspect ratio of the film you're watching but there will be some lines scanned into the "black bar" portion of the picture, though this does not extend to the top & bottom of the screen(most material). The tech is wrong if he believes that the entire screen is displaying info when in 16:9 mode. The whole point of the raster squeeze is to compress the viewing area and display all lines of resolution without wasting any on the tv drawing it's own bars. You can see where the edgesof the compressed material are by turning up the brightness on your set. You will see a clear difference in the brightness of the bars directly above and below the image and the rest of the screen. The bars directly above and below are the ones that are part of the actual image and, I assume, will have lines of information. The rest of the screen is unused, as the raster has been compressed.

 

[TonyTone]

Brian/JasonRH--makes sense to me; I knew I had read it was something like that, just needed someone like you guys to explain it better! If only either one of you were here the day that tech tried to fix my TV, although given his apparent ignorance I somehow doubt that even you guys could have convinced him.

Whatever the problem is with my TV--either blanking, convergence, or both--I just hope that the next tech guy (I'm trying a different shop this time) isn't as clueless as the last one...