Sony STR-DA4ES vs. 5ES Receivers (1 Viewer)

[Charles Gurganus]

Thanks Randy. That was an interesting read. It shows you can't get away with inaccurate information on the net for very long.

 

[randy bessinger]

Charles,

You are right about that. Too many bright people.

Randy

 

[Greg Schwabacher]

I've been following this thread closely, and though I already had my mind made up, I ordered a 'DA4ES today and should have it by Saturday. I'm upgrading from a three-year old Sony STR-DA50ES, and while the 'DA50ES served me very well, I expect the 'DA4 to be quite a step up. Some new features I'm particularly looking forward to:

-True analog pass-through for SACD
-6.1 decoding (duh!)
-dts 96/24
-Adjustable crossovers for ALL channels!
-OSD

Although I can't compare the 'DA4 to the 'DA5, I'll post my impressions once I get a chance to sit down with it for a bit.

 

[Alex Dydula]

Hello!

I have a new STR-DA4ES, and it is AWESOME. All this crap about something weighing more and sounding better gave me a headache on the audioholics forum...

I have been playing with the new toy for a month now and am very impressed with its capabilites and sound qualities..

It will do things the old 5ES can only dream of doing, no emotion here just facts, This does not mean the 5ES is a not good, on the contrary....it was ans still is great for what it does,its just technology is moving on!

I have mega buck amps and cd players that weigh 70 plus pounds and the new SONY 4ES and the new Sony755 DVD/SACD player sound as good as these did!!

The cost of my 4ES was $641 out of NYC, brand spanking new, doubled boxed etc...

Smiling
Alex

 

[Angelo.M]

Let me second Alex's comments: the 4ES is a terrific piece. I'm very, very impressed with its performance sofar, and will put a longer review here soon.

--AM

 

[Greg Schwabacher]

I'm also very pleased with the performance of my 'DA4ES so far. However, I have noticed a fair amount of hiss through the speakers at high volumes with using a DSP mode (like dts:neo-6 or DPL-II) with an analog-only input or when an input is forced to analog mode. For example, if I set the receiver to the TAPE input, it's dead quiet (unless I crank it to -10 dB or higher, when I can hear just a bit of analog noise). However, if I turn DPL-II or something similar on at this high volume setting, then the hiss volume rises substantially. Of course, this is at very high volumes and isn't noticable in normal listening. Plus, it's easily avoided, because I don't hear any additional noise when using DSP modes with a digital signal!
I suspect this hiss I've described is fairly normal because two other Sony receivers I have (a 'DA50ES and an old STR-D915) behave similarly. Can you guys try the scenario I've described above and tell me what you notice? I tend to obsess over my new toys, and I talked to Jim Oade about this hiss (he explained that it was normal), but I just want reassurance...

 

[BrunoB]

I am very happy with my 4ES.

Here are my comments on the 4ES (already posted to audioholics forum):

My best movie experience from a sound perspective was sometime ago when watching "The Haunting", DTS edition.
I was amazed by the clarity and the level of details I could hear. For instance, somewhen at the beginning, during the scene where Theo and Eleanore are walking to their room on the big stairs, I could hear the sound of their steps on the carpet. I did not notice this when watching the movie one month ago at a friend's house.

My sound system consists of a Sony DA4ES, 5 Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 (9 feet away from my ears), no sub, the room is not big and well damped (I know, this is crazy , but I had foam mattresses push-pinned on the ceiling and on the wall behind the listener, this improves sound clarity).

Of course, I don't know if I would have had the same experience with another receiver, Sony or not.

Bruno

PS: "The Haunting" is not a good movie, but it has a great sound track

 

[SvenS]

It will do things the old 5ES can only dream of doing, no emotion here just facts, This does not mean the 5ES is a not good, on the contrary....it was ans still is great for what it does,its just technology is moving on!

Could you please elaborate on the things the 5ES can only "dream of doing" that the 4ES does do? They both decode 7.1 (the 4ES has the 7th amp that the 5ES doesn't), they both do DD-EX/DTS-EX/ES, they both do DPL-II & DTS-NEO6.

 

[AaronBatiuk]

Could you please elaborate on the things the 5ES can only "dream of doing" that the 4ES does do?

For example:
- dts 96/24
- "Real" Dolby Digital EX. The 5ES will decode a DD-EX soundtrack, but it uses Sony's DCMD decoder, not Dolby's. DD-EX lisences were not available for non-THX equipment when the 5ES was designed.
- Analog downmixing. Avoids truncation of the digital data when mixing channels together digitally. Also allows the 5.1 inputs to be downmixed to 5.0 in the analog domain (for systems without a sub, like mine).
- better EQ in the surround and surround-back channels (the 5ES lacks the "mid" band).
- Improved accuracy and less noise when decoding surround formats by using Sony's newer decoder DSP, the CXD9718 (vs. the CXD9717 used in the 5ES.)
- Digital Concert Hall modes are now 7-channel.
- use of all 7 channels with 5 channel surround sources.
- 12 V trigger
- IR repeater inputs/outputs

 

[Seth_L]

Aaron,

But do you have any proof that real DD EX is better than Sony's DCMD decoder?

How about that the analog downmixing is better than digital?

What about for people like me who don't use the EQ? Does adding another band make any differece? There aren't enough bands in either to be useful. If it had 31 band EQ's with 6 parametric "bands" per channel we might talk, but clearly neither one is adequate for real EQ'ing.

Do we know that there is an audible difference in the new DSP? Seems from Greg the DA4 has more noise than the DA5.

Does anyone actually use the digital concert hall modes?

Anyone with a RCA Y cables can get 7.1 from 5.1 sources.

Granted I'm not saying the DA4 isn't a better unit than the DA5. I'm only saying that you can't simply assume it to be better because it has more stuff listed on the spec sheet.

Seth

 

[Greg Schwabacher]

I'm not the only one getting hiss out of the 'DA4ES, either...check here and here.
My personal opinion is that the 'DA4ES and 'DA5ES are, aside from small differences, virtually identical. I was very close to buying a 'DA5, but I knew it was only a matter of time before Sony released a 7.1 receiver (I wanted the flexibility of two rear center surrounds), so I waited, and sure enough, the 'DA4 came out at an even lower price point. I don't think I would've been terribly heartbroken if I had been "stuck" with the 'DA5, though.

 

[Alex Dydula]

Sven,

This info is posted in several other areas of this forum.

The differences to me dont mean that much for what "I" care about, but here are some:

(shamelessly copied and pasted form another area on this forum...)

Both receivers have:

Dolby Digital EX (see below for note on 5ES)

Dolby Prologic II

DTS-ES Discrete 6.1

DTS-ES Matrix 6.1

DTS Neo:6

Component Video Switching with High Definition pass-through

5.1 and 7.1 Multichannel Inputs

32 bit x 3 DSPs

96k/24 bit PCM capability

On-Screen Display

Digital Cinema Sound

6.1 Channel Decoding

Virtual 6.1 playback capability

Analog Direct and Analog Pureness Controls

18 Digital Signal processing modes

Digital Cinema Sound Cinema

Studio EX A/B/C modes

Equaliser with 5 presets

Tone control (in addtion to EQ) in many soundfields

SoundField Link

Front Audio/Video input

Screw type speaker terminals

Gold Plated Headphone Jack

S-Link (Control A1-II & Control-S)

RS-232 port for upgrades and system control

Sleep Timer

Detachable Power Cord



The 4ES exclusively has:

DTS 96/24

genuine Dolby Digital EX decoding

2 Zone/2 Room capability (2nd A/V out) with E. Volume

Speaker A/B switch

Composite to S-Video Up Conversion

Pre-Programmed (one-way) LCD Remote with Macro

110x7 power output rating

Equaliser: (B=Bass, M=Mid, T=Treble)

Front (B,M,T)

Centre (B,M,T)

Surround (B,M,T)

Surr.Back (B,M,T)


Two 12 V triggers (one per zone)

IR Repeater input (1) and outputs (2)




The 5ES exclusively has:

3 Zone/3 Room capability (2nd A/V out, 3rd speaker out)

Pre-Programmed (two-way) LCD Remote with Macro

Additional remote for 2nd or 3rd zone

110x6 power output rating

Equaliser:

Front (B,M,T)

Centre (B,M,T)

Surround (B,T)

Surr.Back (B,T)



Some thoughts on why you might consider a 4ES over a 5, other than weight and subjective build quality....

I am leaning toward the 4ES for a few reasons:

I will be using two Surround Back speakers. The 4ES has built-in amplification for two (independant) Surround Back speakers. The 5ES has only 1 channel of amplification, but it has two independant pre-outs so that an external amp can be used to achieve a 7.1 setup.

the IR repeater functionality of the 4ES is something that I will actually use

...as is the 12 V trigger.

Although the 5ES comes with a 2-way remote and the 4ES does not, the 4ES has the capability to use one. I already own one that I plan to use with it (knowing that some of the 4ES' setup parameters will not be accessible using it).

The 4ES has A/B speaker hookups. I will use this.

The 4ES has a better equaliser. The 5ES does not have the "Mid" band for the surround and the surround-back channels; the 4ES does have it. This is important in trying to achieve tonal balance amoung all channels.

The 4ES has genuine "Dolby Digital EX" decoding. The 5ES will decode the extended surround channel of DD-EX material, but it does not have a genuine Dolby decoder. It uses Sony's DCMD (Digital Cinema Matrix Decoder) for DD-EX material. The 4ES can use either Sony's DCMD or Dolby's decoder. Both have genuine dts-ES (discrete and matrix) using dts' or Sony's decoder.

The 4ES has dts 96/24.

According to the specs (as posted on the sonystyle.ca website), it 3 kg (6.6 lb) heavier than the 5ES. (4ES: 20.0 kg, 5ES: 17.0 kg). This probably indicates a significantly heavier power transformer (provided that the specs are correct).



The 5ES has these features that I wish the 4ES had too:

3rd zone amplified output. I could really use this, and it is the one feature that is most pulling me in the direction of the 5ES.

2-way remote and a second remote for another zone.

better/bigger capacitors in the power supply (rumoured)

an 'absolute position' type volume control. The 4ES has one of those continuously-rotating jog-dial types. Both are, ultimately, fully electronic (not actual analog pots).




I had been wavering, but upon finding out that the 5ES does not do 'real' DD-EX and does not have as good of an EQ (in the surround channels), I have really swayed over to the 4ES. The 5ES currently retails for CAN$100 more than the 4ES (equal to about USD$64 more).

Does anyone have anything else to offer?

I dont give a darn about the third room, (I wonder if not having a third room affects the sound quality!!! (9smile!).. the DTS 96/24 does in the near future....

Either receviers are both awesome...just dont be so darn gullible to read a not so technical review (everyone knows about what I am referring to...)and jumping on the bandwagon of one is sooooo much superior to the other....they are both great....and both do things the other can not...fact.

Alex

 

[AaronBatiuk]

Quote:

I didn't list specs; I listed features. Someone asked for a list of things that the 4ES does, which the 5ES can not do. That's what I tried to present.

 

[Alex Dydula]

Aaron,

Hope you did not mind me copying your list of features for Sven to look at...

Its really amazing when you can get more function for less price??

A DCD3300 $1300 cd player 10 years ago, built like a boat anchor, and now For $250 you can get one that specwise is better, but they both sound about the same to my ears...

Its neat that a DA4ES has things the 5 does not, especially if they are important to you..

now back to the movies!
Alex
(still smiling)

 

[Seth_L]

Really? How would you take the 5.1 (DD, dts, DPL-II) decoded internally and make 7.1 out of that for the 5ES? Can't be done.

Sure it can. Get an external 2 channel amp with 2 inputs and connect both the rear and sides pre outs to the amp. When you're watching 5.1 sources set the amp so that your rearmost speakers put out the same thing as the sides. With EX and ES set the amp so that it outputs the extra 2 channels from the DSP.

Seth

 

[Greg Schwabacher]

Just to clear things up, the hiss I hear when DSP modes are engaged on analog inputs is certainly audible at volumes lower than -10 dB. The hiss just starts to be noticeable at -30 dB and rises from there. Of course, this is again with no input playing; in other words, I'm just decoding analog noise. My older Sony receivers behaved exactly the same way when DSP's were applied to analog inputs. If the DSP mode is applied to a digital signal, no additional noise is generated. I guess it has something to do with the D/A-A/D conversion process, but it sure can be aggravating. Fortunately, I can't think of an instance in the three years I had my 'DA50ES that I ever needed to apply DSP processing to an analog input.

 

[Angelo_Petralba]

Im still VERY MUCH Satisfied with my 5ES although it is IN a BOX right now (for over 2 months now ) due to House being built is not ready and Will not be readu till January!
I am having MAJOR HT withdrawals!
So now to keep me busy, I've been doing CAR STEREO upgrades.
Good to be back here..Whew..its been a while!
Angelo

 

[SvenS]

didn't say that either one was better, just that the 4ES can do it Dolby's way (and has the logo on the front as well). Sony's DCMD can be used (by turning 6.1 decoding to "on" instead of to "auto") for either dts or DD extended surround modes, so someone at Sony must have thought that someone may want to choose it over the other decoders.

The Sony DCMD that Sony uses conforms to the DD-EX specs so there would be no difference in decoding from one to the other. If this was not the case the DA5ES would NOT have been allow to have the DD-EX emblem on the receiver, as well as the DLP-II. It also has the DTS-ES, DTS-NEO6 emblems as well.

 

[Alex Dydula]

Sven,

There are many ways to meet specs....a spec is a spec, but you can get there in many different ways...

Both of you guys are correct, but how someone writes firmware to perform a function to meet a spec can be worlds apart...

Does this mean anything to us listenting to HT or music?

Thats the subjective part...and what makes it all very controversial!

Objective is GOOD, Subjective is very SILLY for the most part...

Ah the quest for the truth...yes it is out there!

Alex
(smiling!0

 

[AaronBatiuk]

The Sony DCMD that Sony uses conforms to the DD-EX specs so there would be no difference in decoding from one to the other. If this was not the case the DA5ES would NOT have been allow to have the DD-EX emblem

No 5ES I have ever seen has the DD-EX emblem on it.
Check out the pics of the 5ES at Crutchfield and compare that to those of the 4ES which proudly displays the DD-EX logo, in addition to dts-ES and 96/24. Of course it is entirely possible that they have updated the front panel silkscreening since the time that those pictures were taken, so more recently produced units may have that logo. The one in my local Sony Store's showroom does not.
Sony's DCMD decoder uses a similar methodology to decode the 3 surround channels from two, but (probably) does not use the exact same algorithm. That's why the user can choose either DCMD or the Dolby/dts one.