Sony STR-DA4ES impressions (1 Viewer)

[NickSP]

How do you simply turn DPL "Off" on your 444ES? On my 4ES, I can go directly from 2 channel stereo to "Cinema Studio Modes A,B or C". So how do we know we are not bypassing the DPL processing? Also, I still get the adjustments to virtual speakers, etc. so I don't know what exactly am I missing from the 4ES.

 

[Mark Davenport]

On the V444es their is a config mode called surround, like level, Eq, Setup it has an option for Pro logic on or off, when you select a cinema studio mode for the first time DPL is on but you can turn it off. On the V444es the 2Ch Stereo button acts like analog direct where it turns off every other type of DSP mode. If you hit the 2ch stereo button and still have the cinema studio orange surround light and you do not have the pro logic speaker read out you might be ok then.

With cinema studio in stereo mode on the V444es only your left and right speaker and EQ show up as being active on the display and you have the cinema studio. With Pro-logic on it will show your middle speaker on and an orange pro-logic light.

 

[Andrew Pierce]

I finally got mine in last night! I spent most of the night tearing everything down and rewiring, and setting up my various sources in the menus. I haven't gotten it calibrated up yet or done any serious listening, but here's some quick first impressions.
The glossy black finish and the dot matrix display are absolutely beatiful, and it's making my other components look shabby. The thing's a knockout! The controls feel nice.
The setup was probably more work than I'd like. The following gripes are after an evening of reading and fiddling, so I may be missing an easier way to do some of these things. If I am PLEASE let me know. The component inputs are hard assigned to the TV/SAT and DVD/LD inputs, but they're renamable, so that's not a huge issue, but why not make them totally assignable? Call them Component 1 & 2 and in the 'customize' menu for each input have a setting for which component imput is assigned, if any. This would allow much greater flexibility. Same with the digital inputs. Just call them Optical 1-4 and Coax 1-2 and allow me to free assign them! As it is they're each labelled with a source name but you can (using the oh-so-intuitively named 'audio split' function) assign a second digital input for a source, then tell it to use only that one. So effectively you've reassigned it, but you went through 2 different non-intuitive menus to do it, and if you don't also set up the other source you 'borrowed' the input from to prefer its correct input, you'll get the first input out it as well. For instance, my cable box only has a coax digital out, but the receiver only has an optical assigned to TV/SAT, so I plugged the cable box into the CD/SACD coax and my CD player into the optical CD/SACD. Now, I go into the menu and tell the Sony to ALSO use the CD coax for the TV/SAT menu item, and in a different selector, to ONLY use the secondarily assigned input. So far so good. Except now when I play a CD I may hear the CD or the cable box, unless I go into that selector and tell it to only use the optical digital input. I mean, it does work, it's just a pain, but I guess you only need to go through it in the setup phase. Once I get everything settled it worked great, so I guess no big deal, but I still would like to give whoever came up with the scheme a swift kick in the ass.
I noticed the subwoofer level seems 6-10 db hotter than my old receiver. Before I turned the sub down it was making all sorts of loud unpleasant rumblings and the wife said 'You think that sounds better?
As I said I haven't actually calibrated anything yet, but my first impressions of the sound of the unit are very good. First off, I now get my cable box through the digital inputs, so I get 5.1 on some of the movie channels and get all of the digital channels via the receiver's digital decoder, which improved them noticably in terms of source quality. As for actual amplification, I frankly wasn't expecting to hear much of a difference between my old low ned Sont HTIAB amp and my DA4ES due to the fact that I'm still on those low rent Sony HTIAB speakers and my somewhat less than golden ears. In fact, there is a significant, noticable difference, particularly in the clarity and openness of the treble. I am very, very pleasantly suprised. Once the amp is paid off, I'm really looking forward to seeing how she sounds with some decent mains!
Now to get it dialed in and run some demo material through it...

 

[AaronBatiuk]

how do we know we are not bypassing the DPL processing?

Simple really... the Pro-Logic light in the display is lit up whenever the Cinema Studio EX modes are used on any 2-channel source. Also, if you go into the surround menu, you will see a dimmed-out parameter called "2-channel Decode Mode: [Pro-Logic]". It is dimmed out because you cannot change it! It is always Pro-Logic. In the Normal Surround mode, you can change this paramter to "PL-II:Movie", "PL-II:Music", "NEO6:Cinema" or "NEO6:Music". It is very dissappointing that one cannot deactivate pro-logic or activate Dolby PL-II or dts NEO:6.

 

[Mark Davenport]

Yep this would do it. Cinema Studio is now pretty much ruined. I have audtioned a Lexicon mc-12 played with it quite a bit and Cinema Studio as implemeted on the V444es is very similar to the Logic 7 the $10,000 Lexcion uses.

It's really really a shame Sony went this direction. I know now I'll be keeping my V444ES until I can afford a Lexicon, Anthem or Sunfire PrePro.


"Simple really... the Pro-Logic light in the display is lit up whenever the Cinema Studio EX modes are used on any 2-channel source. Also, if you go into the surround menu, you will see a dimmed-out parameter called "2-channel Decode Mode: [Pro-Logic]". It is dimmed out because you cannot change it! It is always Pro-Logic. In the Normal Surround mode, you can change this paramter to "PL-II:Movie", "PL-II:Music", "NEO6:Cinema" or "NEO6:Music". It is very dissappointing that one cannot deactivate pro-logic or activate Dolby PL-II or dts NEO:6."

 

[Brett Miles]

Also, if you go into the surround menu, you will see a dimmed-out parameter called "2-channel Decode Mode: [Pro-Logic]". It is dimmed out because you cannot change it! It is always Pro-Logic. In the Normal Surround mode, you can change this paramter to "PL-II:Movie", "PL-II:Music", "NEO6:Cinema" or "NEO6:Music". It is very dissappointing that one cannot deactivate pro-logic or activate Dolby PL-II or dts NEO:6.

On my 5es, this area is only dimmed when the 2ch decoding mode is set to off. When on, it can be changed between PL, PL II movie, and Neo cinema.

 

[Mark Davenport]

Yes that is the exact config I'm talking about. The DA5ES does allow you to turn off Pro-Logic with Cinema Studio mode while the DA4ES from all reports here does not. You can tell the DA4ES owners the loss in sound quality when you enable the PRO-Logic Mode on the Cinema Studio DSP. I would suggest trying this mode out as it does rival Logic 7 in DSP sound quality.

I owned the DA5ES for a week but returned the DA5ES for the lack of surround EQ which is a separate EQ ability apart from the main EQ functions and the fact when you enabled 3rd room speakers plus the main room speakers it took out your center channel. Just more Sony weirdness.
I also seem to remember that the bass band or mid band was missing from the rear channel or center.

The DA5es is also weird as it does not have an A+B switch it has main room 2nd room and 3rd room. The 2nd room are just pre out's while the 3rd room have speaker terminals. The DA4ES went back to the less confusing A+B switch but now when you enable A+B everything is turned off except for A+B. In the V444es ES you could have A+B and your center and rear speakers all going at once with no degrading of sound quality.

 

[AaronBatiuk]

I am a DA5ES owner... on the 5es the first menu option in "surround" allows you to select "on/off/auto" for decoding.

Brett,
I was very dissapointed to see your post. Don't get me wrong... I appreciate the information, but it just makes me seriously question my decision to go for the 4ES over the 5ES. Bummer. There were exactly 3 things that are very dissapointing about the 4ES to me: Can't turn off Pro-Logic for Cinema Studio EX modes (just confirmed this again, it is absolutely true), can't enable PL-II or NEO:6 for surround modes like Cinema Studio EX, and of course the missing DCS modes like Virtual Multi-Dimension, etc. It would seem that the 5ES suffers from NONE of those ailments, and it is constructed of better quality components (of debatable impact to the audio quality). Sigh.

Well, I bought the 4ES from The Sony Store (they are everywhere in Canada) and they have a 30 day no-questions return policy. I just might be taking advantage of that. Now whether I can get as good of a deal on the 5ES as I did on the 4ES, I don't know. And I'll have to find another 2-channel amp to be able to use a pair of surround back speakers instead of one... hmm. Thanks very much for the info Brett!

 

[Mark Davenport]

Hi
Aaron don't feel to bad I had to eat 100$ worth of shipping
plus a 15% restocking fee because even the DA5ES had features missing from the V444ES which I still have today and will not give up for my life.

Aaron I would almost suggest to you to try and find a used V444ES, you could probably get one for under 400$. While the V444ES does not have DTS: NEO or DPL II it has more EQ features and the A+B option with no other channel loss and after you hear Cinema Studio mode with pro-logic turned off you won't need DTS:Neo or DPL II anyway Cinema Studio DSP is probably one of the best kept secrets in receivers right now, at least the way the V444ES does it.

The week I had my DA5ES I simply could not configure it to sound as good as my V444Es and I have used ES receivers for 10 years now. I had been happily upgrading from one Sony ES to another the only one I've missed in the last 10 years is the DA777ES which from what I hear is also another treasure worth seeking out.

It does seem as Sony adds new features now they are going to rip out ones and unless you have used them for years like me you might not even notice they are gone.

 

[NickSP]

Alright so this is getting more confusing by every minute. The Cinema Studio modes are designed for "Cinema", right? Also, it is recomended to use the Cinema modes when you listen to a multichannel source, i.e. a DVD.
Now although it might not work in music as the 444ES does, it still works the same on DVD sources? Am I missing something here? With a DVD encoded in 5.1 sound and the Cinema Ex modes selected, it is still outputting 5.1/6.1, right? I hope the Cinema Ex modes does not downconvert 5.1 to DPL as I can still see all my channels in those little windows as I would normally see them in Auto Format mode.
Lastly, if I am not worried about how Cinema Ex modes act with Music then I should be OK or is Cinema Ex also somehow screwing up DVD encoding?

 

[AaronBatiuk]

Nick, not to worry. The Cinema Studio EX modes do not do anything bad to multichannel sources. The discussion here was about what they do with 2-channel sources, i.e. music and even surround-encoded stereo signals (VHS movies, TV, etc.).

Yes, they are designed for movies. However, the acoustic environment that they create can also be suitable for music.

 

[NickSP]

Good, thanks Aaron (sigh). I am not going to let this receiver go because of the Cinema Modes not playing the music properly. Also does anyone know if the 5ES has 12V trigger outs?

 

[Mark Davenport]

Hi
I use the Cinema Studio mode on all sources, DTS,SACD,DVD-A,CD everything it simply adds this DSP mode to whatever source your playing and on stereo sources give you all channel surround matrixed to almost nearly be discrete 5.1 channel output from stereo sources, and enchanced discrete surround on multi channel sources.

In my opinion though this mode is the pinnacle of sound from any Sony ES receiver, after months of tweaking this is as good as it gets with them so I would not under play it's value. The 5ES will be your next bet for the proper use of this mode if you can't get a V444ES. The 5ES does lack some addtional EQ features found on earlier ES units though.

Yes it's terribly confusing and took me months with each Sony ES I've had to find the right combination of settings. That is part of the fun with these though. If sony would document this better they would sell them through the roof.

 

[Brett Miles]

Also does anyone know if the 5ES has 12V trigger outs?

It does not. I wish it did, because this is one thing on the 4es that I could really use right now.

 

[Gil D]

I also like Cinema Studio EX B for music. I have found that turning off the centre channel speaker (so that the centre channel sound is mixed into the L/R speakers) improves it dramatically (for music specifically).

Try Live House. It does not use the center and sounds good with the rear effect level adjusted appropriately. This was a good alternative to DPL2 Music on the V444es w/out DPL2.

 

[terence]

I really enjoyed your review here but even better at audioreview.com good job! Hey guys check it out.
Summary:
Excellent receiver.
This is one of the most versatile and feature-equipped 7 channel receivers on the market. Sony's Digital Cinema Sound DSP modes are almost unbelieveable. I don't mind at all that Sony does not ever seek THX certification/conformity. Sony is not a company that conforms; they are a company that innovates.
This receiver supports all of the currently available multi-channels formats on the market, and the latest decoding modes for two-channel sources as well:
Dolby Digital
Dolby Digital Extended Surround (EX)
dts
dts ES, both Matrix and Discrete 6.1
dts 96/24
Dolby Pro-Logic
Dolby Pro-Logic II Movie and Music modes
dts NEO:6 Cinema and Music modes.
In addition to the DPL-II and dts NEO:6 modes for listening to music, Sony also has created two Digital Concert Hall modes which use all speakers to provide a very involving multi-channel presentation of 2-channel or multi-channel (such as dts) music sources.
This receiver features some of the most advanced Bass management available in any receiver at any price. Each of the four sets of speakers (Front L/R, Centre, Surround L/R, and Surround-back L/R) have an independant crossover, with 17 frequencies to choose from between 40 Hz and 200 Hz. Many receivers from other makers, even high end ones, often allow a choice of one, two, or up to five frequencies, and often this choice is global... not independant for each speaker pair. The sub also has it's own crossover with the same frequency choices, and you can also low-pass the LFE channel as well, again with the same choice of 17 frequencies.
The 4ES' EQ is very flexible. The EQs for the Front and the Centre speakers each have 3 bands (bass, mid, treble), with adjustable frequency and level, and adjustable width ("Q") for the mid band. The surround and surround-rear speakers have only the bass and treble bands. EQ settings can be stored in 5 presets, and the EQ can be disabled as well. Each surround mode also has it's own EQ, with bass and treble bands, so that you can tweak the sound on a per-soundfield basis.
Other features include: - 2-way remote capability (included remote is 1-way) - 2nd zone Audio/Video output with independant source selection - ability to turn off digital and/or video circuits when not in use, e.g. when listening to SACD. - TWO Multi-channel inputs, one is 7.1 channels, other is 5.1 channels. - Very powerful and clean amplifier
This is a very "quiet" receiver. I have said this before, but never quite meant it like this. Even at very high listening levels, there is no background noise. None. When the input goes silent, the room goes silent, without the faintest whisper of background noise.
The Amplifier section is great. This is a real step up from my "QS" series STR-DB830, which was purported to have "ES Quality" amplifiers. I would describe the sound as detailed and vivid without being harsh or overly bright. Very easy to listen to for an extended period of time. This amps have power to spare; much more headroom than my DB830 despite the negligible difference in specs (110 vs 100 watts).
Overall:
Amazing for it's price. Could be slightly better, but at a fraction of the price of some other receivers out there, this Sony really delivers.
Strengths:
Power amplifier. Sound&Vision just reviewed it and measured power in stereo mode to be 209 Watts/channel into 4 Ohms with very low distortion.
Sony's Digital Cinema Sound DSP modes.
Very Flexible Equaliser and Crossover adjustments for all channels.
Most adjustments are in 0.5 dB steps rather than 1.0 dB like many other receivers.
Remote controls most but not all other brands of equipment. You don't have to look up codes to program it to work with, day, a Toshiba DVD player. Just pick "Toshiba" from the DVD player list. Very nice.
Six digital inputs (2 coax, 4 toslink), assignable to other sources. Lots of flexibility here. One digital output for MD or DAT recorders as well.
Weaknesses:
Digital Cinema Sound has far fewer modes than any previous Sony receiver. The Virtual multi-dimension and Virutal Multi-rear modes are gone, along with several others.
No mid band in the EQ for the surround L/R and surround-back L/R speakers. No mid band in the surround-mode EQs either. The older STR-V444ES and 555ES had them.
Cannot turn off Pro-Logic decoding for 2-channel sources when using Cinema Studio EX A/B/C modes. Cannot use DPL-II or dts NEO:6 instead of Pro-Logic either.
REMOTE Ugh. way too few buttons, which makes it look simple, until you try to do advanced things. Heck, even changing to a specific TV channel, CD track, or disc number is too complicated, because of the lack of number buttons!
Only the display is backlit; the buttons are glow-in-the-dark. The remote's display is bright and easy to read when the backlight is on, and impossible to read otherwise. The backlight comes on even if you push a button that does not require the display, like Play or Track+. Ugh.
remote does NOT learn, contrary to many dealer's claims.
lower build quality than earlier ES receivers like the 5ES. E.g. fewer high-grade capacitors.
Similar Products Used:
Sony STR-DB830
Sony STR-DA5ES
Sony STR-V444ES

 

[Mark Davenport]

I swear is Sony would listen o us and create a receiver with all the features from the V444Es, DA5ES and DA4ES they would hit the jackpot. After talking with them for hours about the issues I had with the DA5ES I do not think even they now what the receivers can do.

 

[AaronBatiuk]

I use the Cinema Studio mode on all sources, DTS,SACD,DVD-A,CD, everything...

If you use Cinema Studio for SACD and DVD-A then I fear that you are missing the point of those hi-res formats, since the receiver is sampling the input at only 48 kHz and probably 18 or 20 bit resolution. Then again, if it still sounds better, even after being decimated by being sampled-to-death, then listen to it that way. It does come down to what sounds best, doesn't it?

Now, when you say SACD, and DVD-A, surely you don't mean the multi-channel tracks, do you? The V444ES won't convert multi-channel inputs to digital, will it?

 

[Mark Davenport]

I'm using it on DVD-A and SACD in high REZ stereo mode through the stereo analog outputs of my Pioneer 47AI. The 47AI does the D/A conversion and then just send the normal analog signal to the V444ES. This to me sounds better than the 5.1 analog inputs which bypasses all DSP EQ and time allignment settings.

 

[Ryan DC]

Has anyone else here who owns a 4ES notice allot of hiss when the EQ or Cinema EX decoding is activated? I can barely hear it at -40 db but when I turn it up to -20 I can hear it through out my room. I have 3-way speakers hooked up to the 4ES with a 94 db efficiency and a small room guessing 20' by 15'. When ever I turn off the EQ or Cinema the hiss is no longer there. Please let me know if yours does this or not since I'm still within my return period, Thanks!