sony scd-c555es bass management question

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Lam Nguyen, Mar 1, 2003.

  1. Lam Nguyen

    Lam Nguyen Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2002
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    0
    I purchase a 555es yesterday, and is not at all disappointed. Quality of music is clearly better. My question is when I play 2ch cd/sacd through the player 2ch output, there's plenty of bass going to my sub. When I play music through the 5.1ch output, there's very little bass going to the sub eventhough I set all speakers to (small+sub) in the players bass management? Thank You in Advance.
     
  2. Greg Johnson

    Greg Johnson Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2002
    Messages:
    126
    Likes Received:
    0
    What you are experiencing is your processor or receiver is in analog bypass mode on the 5.1 input. Where on the CD input your processor or receiver is applying its bass management to the signal. Hope this helps.

    Greg
     
  3. Elias

    Elias Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2002
    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lam,

    I agree with Greg. Keep in mind that when you're playing a redbook CD on the 555ES, the player does not do any bass management. If you send a digital out to your processor, the processor will do the bass management and then D/A conversion, sending signals to your two mains and your subwoofer. If you send an analog 2ch out to your processor, make sure to check if your processor is doing a straight analog bypass or if it is doing a A/D and D/A conversion. If it is doing an analog bypass, you will not be getting bass to your subwoofer. If it does A/D followed by D/A conversion on the CD input, it will do bass management. Keep in mind, though, that this involves additional DACs and the original analog signal from your 555ES will be degraded somewhat.

    I therefore recommend that you either use the digital out for redbook CD (only one D/A conversion with bass management done by the processor), or that you use the analog out with direct analog bypass on your processor. You may find the latter unacceptable if your front speakers cannot handle the low frequencies. However, if your speakers can handle full range, you may prefer the analog out as the 555ES' DACs may be better than the DACS on your processor.

    I actually do a mixture of both. I think the upper frequencies sound marginally better when the 555ES is doing the D/A conversion rather than my B&K ref 30, so for music with little bass content I prefer the analog signal. If the music has a lot of bass, I use the digital out and let my B&K do the full bass management.

    What I can't figure out is if the output is identical listening to redbook CD using the left and right main outputs on the 5.1 outputs, listening to CD with my processor on SACD mode (other channels will be silent), versus listening to redbook CD using the separate 2 channel L+R out and running the signal through another processor input using direct analog bypass. Sony claims that in CD mode, the L+R 5.1 mains have an identical analog output as the L+R 2 channel out. Is this really true? Perhaps assistance from another member might answer the question.
     
  4. KeithH

    KeithH Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2000
    Messages:
    9,413
    Likes Received:
    0
    Elias said:

     
  5. Lam Nguyen

    Lam Nguyen Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2002
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks, for all the input guys. I will continue to use the 2ch out of the 555es to listen to cd/sacd and the 5.1 out for multi-channel sacd. I really do like the music that I m getting now, and was just wondering if everyone was experiencing the same thing with the bass.
     
  6. TanD

    TanD Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2001
    Messages:
    106
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nguyen,

    when you use 2ch out your processor may apply a pararell bassmanagement on this input, and when you use 5.1 input i can assume that it is pure direct (very few receiver or processor can apply bass management on the 5.1 input), that's why you will notice the different in bass when you use 2ch or the 5.1 ch.

    Even if the sony apply bassmanagement for stereo material for the 5.1 out (i am not sure about this one may be for SACD only, i never test it) you will find the bass is so low, because the LFE output on the 5.1 out on this machine is 10-15 db below the other channel. so when you listen to Multichannel SACD you should set your processor 10-15db higher on the LFE channel than the other, I set it at +15 on my processor to get a balance and satisfy bass level to my preference.
     
  7. Elias

    Elias Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2002
    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    0


    Lam, Does your recevier convert your analog 555ES CD signal to digital to do the bass management (and then back to analog), or does it simply pass the input signal directly to the speakers? I'm arguing that if it is the former, you might best use the digital out on your 555ES. -Elias
     
  8. KeithH

    KeithH Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2000
    Messages:
    9,413
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lam, glad to hear you are happy with the 'C555ES. The inclusion of stereo analog outputs was very important to me. My first 'C555ES is split between a stereo system (via the stereo analog outputs) and a home-theater systems (via the 5.1-channel outputs). A couple DVD-Audio players I have encountered have no stereo analog outputs. Eek.
     
  9. Rich Malloy

    Rich Malloy Producer

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2000
    Messages:
    3,998
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lam, I suggest you do a search on this topic. FWIW, I recommend that you bypass the bass management altogether. IMO, it corrupts the quality of the signal.

    And as everyone's suggested, make sure that your receiver is not reconverting the signal to digital (some will do this on the analog inputs). If it is doing this, then you're not hearing a hi-resolution signal; rather, you're getting the equivalent of a "downconverted" signal, thus removing the very reason you bought an SACD player to begin with.
     
  10. Steve Raimand

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 1999
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wow Lam if anything, my experience with my 555ES is the opposite of yours. I get plenty of bass on the multi-channel and very little on two channel.

    I think it depends on the mix on the individual CD.

    I played around with the various BM formats and now run MCH Direct for multi channel and 2+SW for 2ch. On multi-channel, I know I should have mine set at small plus sub but I think it sounds great using the Direct setting.

    I did crank up my SW level on the reciver about 4 or 5 db's.

    Also just got a Rocket speaker package this weekend and the bass is great now even on 2ch SACD's.
     
  11. Rich Malloy

    Rich Malloy Producer

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2000
    Messages:
    3,998
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  12. Lam Nguyen

    Lam Nguyen Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2002
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    0
    Elias, I don't know if my reciever convert analog 555ES CD signal to digital to do the bass management. How do find out if my receiver is doing this? This is what my system looks like, it would probaly be easier for you all to help.
    Thanks.

    Can I bypass bass management on the Harman Kardon?

    -Rotel rmb1075 (5ch. amp)
    -Harman Hardon avr510 as preamp
    -sony scd555es
    -B&W cdm 7nt fronts, cnt (center)
    -B&W 600 s3 surrounds
    -B&W 650 sub
     
  13. Lam Nguyen

    Lam Nguyen Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2002
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    0
    After doing a search on bass management in this forum and audioasylum, many have agreed that using bass management does corrupt the sacd signal. I then went back and listen to my system in direct mode(both mc & 2ch), I have to say that with the type of music recorded on sacd, there's not alot of bass anyways. So I will be using direct. Still want to know the answer for the above question. Thanks.
     
  14. Rich Malloy

    Rich Malloy Producer

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2000
    Messages:
    3,998
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  15. Chriss M

    Chriss M Second Unit

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2001
    Messages:
    320
    Likes Received:
    0
    Some receivers and pre/pro's will pass a pure analog signal through the CD inputs but will still make a copy of the signal, digitize it, and send the digitized copy to the subwoofer. So while you are still getting a true hi-rez signal to your mains, you'll be getting "double bass" output from your sub. The best option here is to turn the sub off, or use a true analog crossover (like an ICBM).

    You'll have to check with H/K though to see if this is the case with their units. They simply may be digitizing all input, as Rich was saying.
     
  16. Lam Nguyen

    Lam Nguyen Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2002
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    0
    Rich, thank you for your help and everyone who wrote a reply, now I know I have my system set up correctly. The question that I had was:

    Can I bypass bass management on the Harman Kardon?

    But you've already answered it. I know I'm not getting any signal to my sub in 2 ch. and in multi-channel, I have to check again when I get home.
    Thanks again for the info.
     
  17. AaronBatiuk

    AaronBatiuk Second Unit

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    333
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  18. Rich Malloy

    Rich Malloy Producer

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2000
    Messages:
    3,998
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lam, I found the owner's manuel for the AVR 510 online (strangely, there are two separate ones, depending on serial number). Go here (scroll down to "receivers"): http://www.eriksonconsumer.com/eriksonconsumer/OM2.htm

    The key information is on page 32 of either manuel, describing the "6 Channel Direct Input". The information is much too sketchy, but this appears to be a "pure" direct pass-through. So long as your SACD player is hooked up to the 6 Channel Direct Inputs on the back of your receiver, you should be all set!

    Remember: it doesn't matter whether you're playing a two-channel or multichannel disc, the feed should go to these inputs only. DO NOT HOOK YOUR SACD PLAYER TO ANY OF THE OTHER INPUTS (unless you want a coax or toslink hookup for regular ol' redbook CDs). But for the purposes of SACD, always select "6 Channel Direct".

    Your SACD player has two sets of outputs, a two channel set and a six channel set. YOU DO NOT NEED TO USE BOTH, AND THE LIMITATIONS OF YOUR HK RECEIVER REQUIRES THAT YOU DO NOT. While this extra set of two-channel outs can be useful in some systems, it is redundant in yours. The exact same two channel signal that's output via the two channel outputs on your 555ES is also output via the L and R channels of the multichannel outputs. SO BE SURE THAT YOU ONLY HOOK UP THE MULTICHANNEL OUTPUTS OF YOUR 555ES TO THE 6 CHANNEL DIRECT INPUTS OF YOUR AVR510. So long as you've done this, there is no way you could even accidentally corrupt the signal via redigitization.
     
  19. Lam Nguyen

    Lam Nguyen Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2002
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    0
    Rich,
    For redbook cd's, I want to use the 555es DAC and have the H/K apply bass management so I could use the sub. This means I would have to use the 2ch output of the of the 555es. Does the receiver convert the analog signal from the 555es to digital to apply bass management?
     
  20. Steve Raimand

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 1999
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have a Yamaha RX-V800. I also hooked up the 2 channel out to the CD input of the reciever as well as the 6 channel outputs from the 555ES to the 6 channel in's.

    When you do this you then can swith the source to CD and then use the sub or leave it in 6 ch input to not use the sub.

    Your reciver is converting the analog to digital in order to do this BM I believe.

    I am getting great bass response out of my new Rockets and actually no longer play Redbooks in this fashion. I just use the 6 Ch input for both SACD and Redbook. Plenty of clean bass on music for me now.
     

Share This Page