Sony pulling out of SA-CD? (1 Viewer)

[Justin Lane]

Yes DVD-A is struggling, but recording in PCM is certainly not. Just ask Sony who source most of their SACD from PCM masters

J

 

[LanceJ]

IMO dvd-audio is struggling more mostly because few people know it exists in the first place, in other words, lousy marketing is mostly the culprit here (crummy title selection is another one).

Sacd is doing better IMO because it shares sonic characteristics similar to tubes and vinyl, niche formats that are near and dear to certain audiophile's hearts. And many times, it's these same types of audiophiles who aggressively & loudly defend their pet format's (supposed) superiority every chance they get, many times when no one even asks. Talk about effective word of mouth advertising!

And I wonder if dvd-audio would do better if IT had mostly jazz and classical titles?

LJ

 

[ElevSkyMovie]

Oh, here we go again. SACD sounds warm, with tube-like characteristics, but dvd-audio doesn't. Will this stuff ever end?

 

[LanceJ]

Kyle: if you think I sound repetitive concerning this issue, go to AudioAsylum.com's Hi-Res Highway ("Is SACD fundamentally flawed?") and you'll think otherwise!!! And check out that linked thread at Steve Hoffman's forum discussing this--twelve pages so far!

LJ

 

[Jeff Ulmer]

What a crock! SACD is nothing more than a delivery format for hi res audio. It doesn't have a sound, and if it does, it is very highly flawed. Could you prefer the mastering that is done for SACD? Certainly, but my hard drive does nothing but store data, and SACD is nothing more than a way of storing and presenting high res digital data. It is the mastering that determines the "sound" of a release, not what format it's stored on.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

Any noise/distortion inherent in a format can certainly color the sound, giving it more 'warmth' and or other attributes.

 

[Jesper]

Maybe, but Memory Stick is dead end against SD card - if you ask me..

 

[LanceJ]

Oh my, I really beg to differ.

You're right about the mastering.

But storing data is one thing.

The important issue here is how a specific digital format's encoders "look" at the original (music) data and especially, how its decoder reconstructs it back into an audible analog waveform. There are all kinds of options, problems and other brain-melting things that engineers face when dealing with these conversions, the same conversions that can seriously effect what you hear at the playback end.

LJ

 

[Jeff Ulmer]

You are correct in that the digital encoding and decoding do affect sound quality, but that has nothing to do with the storage medium or presentation format. Different SACD players will sound different if they use different quality D/A convertors, different levels of error correction, or different filters on the analogue stream. None of this has anything to do with the format. DVD-A has the same issues, as does CD.

Sure, distortion (defined as anything that alters the original sound) will affect the sound quality, which is exactly the effect tubes or other nonlinear processing will have. Tape is notorious for being nonlinear, but the "warmth" that it creates (both its inability to maintain levels across the frequency range, resulting in high frequency cutoff and a low mid bump, and the distortion/compression it introduces when saturated) are sonically pleasing. Digital is not subject to this effect, and once in the digital domain, the sound should not alter at all, for good or bad, until the output conversion.

If the goal is to remain as close to the original source material as possible, then there should be no part of the signal chain that has any effect on the sound. Vinyl is not particularly good at sound reproduction either, inducing all manner of distortion, and requiring extensive EQ compensation and compression in order to create a mechanically useable disc master. While people may prefer the sound of vinyl, it is anything but sonically pure.

Back to the mastering, if two formats release the same content from the identical master, there should be no discernable difference between them.

 

[LanceJ]

Jeff: I really do see what you mean about formats but from a recording point of view, DSD has......well here, you read it!

Bruno Putzeys, Chief Engineer at Philips Digital Systems Labs, talks about DSD's problems.

(this particular post is the 19th post in this thread, posted by "thomh" and starting with "I have had the pleasure of some very long and detailed email correspondance with Bruno Putzeys........")

He also describes in there how live mic demos aren't a fair way to compare the formats.

I think this guy is taking some big chances with his job discussing this (he has comments scattered all through that thread & especially, right at the beginning of it).

FYI: the biggest reason the sacd format irritates me is not so much the format itself, but all the fuzzy mystery stuff surrounding it. It seems like every other month something surfaces about this format that contradicts something from six months before. :frowning:

LJ

 

[Lee Scoggins]

I think a very good case can be made that it is sonically more pure than digital since it does not have complex a/d and d/a conversions. An analog recording to tape that gets transfered to LP has very little manipulation of signal path, far less in fact than digital of any resolution.

------------------
Justin, I'm still wondering where you got your data on profitability...would love to see the supporting evidence. Thanks.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

Well, the RIAA curve is a really nasty bit of equalization, performed twice before you listen. I've always chuckled that some audiophiles insist that their systems have absolutely no equalization or bass/treble, then listen to vinyl that has had +20db, -20db, and everything in between...applied twice before they listen.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

There have been several stories on HFR. I don't have time to search the archives.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

You 'know of several' workstations that use no PCM and you can't name one?

BTW, their archive search does suck.

 

[Phil A]

http://www.genexaudio.com/hardware/index.html

http://www.sonicstudio.com/

I believe the above cos. make stand alone stations. I don't follow that market at all.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

Phil,

I don't see any claims at Genex that no internal conversions are ever used. As far as Sonic and others, I did find this post at the Chesky forums (my emphasis added):

 

[Brian-W]

SD card is stillborne. It was supposed to trounce memory stick and replace compact flash in terms of bandwidth, price, and market penetration. Still hasn't happened, and doubt it will.

 

[Jeff Ulmer]

I agree with Michael's comments on this about the RIAA curve, a process which is inherently flawed due to the fact that it is impossible to create two filters that are identical in their operation, especially when one is before the cutting lathe and the other in your turntable. I would also suggest that there is one hell of a lot of processing required to cut a useable laquer, namely compression. You simply can't have the dynamics of even 16 bit audio on vinyl, or you will shoot your needle out of the groove. Same thing applies to heavy panning in bass frequencies, it is simply not possible to cut.

I'm not disputing that the A/D D/A process and the inherent brickwall filtering at Nyquist aren't factors that can seriously degrade digital audio, nor that jitter or excessive error correction don't impart problems and distortions either. However, none of this has to do with existing in the digital domain, which unlike existing on tape, isn't going to change your sound.

As for the live mic test for A/Bing different processes, I would agree that it isn't valid if the front end signal path changes, and/or the performance changes. The only way to have a valid comparison is using the same performance split after the A/D process.

As an engineer, all I ask of a format is that what I put into it, I get back out, with no monkey business in between. If I want warmth, I'll record it that way, thank you very much.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

This is how both Michael Bishop at Telarc and I both conducted our different mic feed tests.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

http://www.highfidelityreview.com/ne...umber=14331499

Here is the HFR story a while back on the Sadie DSD 8 channel. Cool gear.

Here is the relevant quote:


Enjoy!