Sony pulling out of SA-CD? (1 Viewer)

[Brian-W]

Right now looking at Black Magic's DeckLinkHD (full 1035i/1080i HD-SDI input w/analog audio) + AJA HD10A component video to HD-SDI converter. About $4400, needs a Mac (I have an iMac, not sufficient). That'll do the trick.

It'll be captured to uncompressed Quicktime, then encoded from there to either MPEG-2 or WM9

 

[Rachael B]

Will, they really look silly for not being on that list of uni players in the latest issue of Sound & Vision. Sames goes for Philips, in my mind!Sony management = & I bet the Sony 999ES would've set sales records if it had included DVD-A...?

 

[George See]

I think what Sony needs to do is add SACD to the eventual playstation 3, and then release a whole bunch of current music targeted at the younger generation. Then you might have a situation where generic parent hears how amazing the audio sounds and thinks, hrmmm i'd love to hear some of my music in that format.

If that doesn't generate some interest nothing will.

 

[Zach Shoup]

Or you can get that Pioneer player that supports DVD and SACD for $180....

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Wow, good point. I never thought of a possible Playstation follow-on effect. Good post George. That would be interesting to see.

I wonder why Warner did not announce more DVDA titles at this year's CES? They say they are readying the flipper hybrid...it seems like this would be a good time to detail the future release slate or at least tease us with some big names.

 

[Marc Colella]

Not sure if they'll add SACD support on their PS3, since Sony doesn't seem to think it's worthwhile to add SACD support for many of their DVD players.

Plus I have to wonder about the target market. The majority of console gamers are kids. Kids are more interested in MP3 than they are High Fidelity audio. I don't think SACD support will have much of an impact on this demographic.

 

[Rachael B]

Lee, I think that never in it's history has the now really sprawling Sony Corporation faced losses even remotely close to what's happened the last few years. There's little doubt that Sony will downsize, the real question is how much? What's happen'n could affect any and all parts of the company. They're closing down the majority of their CRT tube production. That's a titanic change, in and of it's self. I imagine a whole lotta' sweating is goin' on with Sony employees. Change is coming.

 

[Brian-W]

Most companies at CES announced (Panasonic, Hitachi, Samsung, etc.) in not so clear terms that 2004 will see the end of RPTV that use CRT tubes, and 2005-2006 will see the end of CRT based direct view sets.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

DSD and Super Audio represent many revenue streams so I think there is less than a 1% chance that it will be affected. Also, it is one of the bright spots in the organization in terms of both buzz and growth.

I'm very confident that we will be enjoying Super Audio discs for many years.

 

[Rachael B]

Lee, I suspect that there will be fewer Columbia & Epic SA-CD releases due to a tight, streamlined budjet this year. I hope they pick good'un's if that's the case. The Thorns was a good'un but you must admit that Sony was anything but prolific the last few months. I think it's gonna be that kind of year...???

 

[Justin Lane]

They only represent potential revenue streams as right now, both are obviously cutting into profits from Sony's standpoint. When it comes to making decisions on what stays or goes, the higher ups may eventually decide 5 years has been plenty of time for SA-CD to make any potential inroads. This doesn't mean SA-CD is going to die right away, all it means is that title release will slow down even more from the trickle we get right now, especially from Sony.

J

 

[George See]

The majority gaming market is 15-25 now, And I think if you package it correctly and market it correctly, IE throw in an SACD sampler disc with the PS3 with current popular artists...i think you'd have to generate some interest. If they are interested in MP3's that will make the SACD sound even better to their ears, just blow em away...make a demo disc that will sound so good they'll have no choice but to get hooked on the format...and why not they can buy the discs listen to them in their cars and bring it inside for the good stuff. Not to mention the age group 15-25 are still the big spenders for popular music, that's why record companys put all their money and marketing behind bands like NSYNC while bands like REM get practically ignored by the lable (in america). You've got to hook the kids to push a new format that's just all there is to it. And Kids are gonna buy the PS3.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

I think this market may be too young to be the target market for Super Audio, but one could make the case that bundling the capability on PS3 would at least raise awareness. My guess is they may spend a lot on music, but they may not be as loyal as older serious music fans.

 

[Brian-W]

I felt (as a Sony employee at the time) Sony blundered by NOT including support on PS-2 for Memory Stick media. A no brainer in my book.

If *anything* is going to appear in PS-3, it's likely to be a Blu-Ray drive. The PSP showed use of 3" cartridge media that was identical in looks to the 5" Blu-Ray media.

I don't normally agree with Justin, but in this case, I believe he is correct. You won't see Sony continue to pump out SACDs. If they aren't selling, Sony's not going to continue to manufacture and then later eat the cost of SACD when retailers want to send them back. It is in Sony's best interest to get other labels releasing product to help the overall stature of SACD.

Neither SACD nor DVD-A are going way contrary to other ideas they will. Both represent a new media to generate revenue for music companies who aren't making dick right now. Problem is getting consumers educated and moving towards the new formats. Many are happy with CD now, and others like downloadable music. But neither SACD or DVD-A will go away since they represent so much for both industries.

Sony's also never conceded defeat so early in the game, and SACD isn't dead nor will it die anytime soon. There's far more momentum for Sony in SACD than other products of theirs they kept on life support (Data Discman, 8mm pre-recorded movies, Minidisc to a large degree, consumer Beta, etc.)

 

[Dan Hitchman]

It would be a stupid move on Sony's part if they dumped the format now. They just announced that they would be improving the encoding purity of DSD to get rid of the spurious hash noise in the upper frequency bands some recording companies have complained about (how soon we'll see upgrade changes to their DSD equipment at the audio labels, who knows?), and if Sony just released Hybrid SACD's from now on and stopped the dual manufacturing of regular CD's, then that would really increase the visibility of the format.

Both sides have done piss poor marketing for each of their formats. They keep wringing their hands over a standard digital audio interface standard, which then leads many upscale consumers to hold out on purchasing hardware.

Sony/Philips also needs to make sure that their DSD technology is being handled properly by the electronics manufacturers and the recording labels. Many manufacturers are just converting DSD to PCM in order to add DSP and bass management modes or during the DAC phase, and some recording labels are using PCM masters converted to DSD, which then negates the reason behind the format in the first place.

If DSD really does have encoding problems with extra introduced noise compared to ultra high rez. PCM as some labels suggest, I'd like to see a new audio format on HD-DVD that uses up to 8 channels of discrete 24/192 kHz PCM (on each channel). MLP could be used if necessary. Now that would be KILLER!!

Dan

 

[Dennis Nicholls]

Heck Intel is putting 32 bits/192 KHz audio capability in their future motherboard chipsets.......

http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archi...0108corp_b.htm

 

[John Kotches]

Dan,


As far as signal processing goes, DSD is converted to PCM for a very good reason. Processing the DSD signal is quite difficult at best. I have spoken with a number of people about this, some have done PhD level work on Digital Signal processing, and who's daily routine involves highly advanced signal processing algorithms for non-audio purposes and they all have the same conclusion as I posted above. In other words, they have zero vested interest in any audio format.

It will be interesting to see what hapens as advanced DSP functions such as Room/Speaker correction becomes commonplace in the market with respect to digital transfer of both High Resolution formats.

At CES, I spoke with Tripath who manufactures digital amplifiers that work with the same techniques as DSD, in other words Pulse Density Modulation. When asked about directly accepting a DSD stream from SA-CD, I was informed that would not work. According to one of their head engineers, there is no way to incorporate an appropriate feedback loop with a DSD stream, so they will require PCM. Tripath has no stake in the format war, they provide amplifier technology to companies including Bel Canto (eVo series of amps) and Audio Research (150M and 150.2 amps), and Carver Pro (ZR series of amps).

I also spoke with TI, who owns the Equibit digital amplifier technology. They are building infrastructure for end-to-end digital solutions -- imagine a digital signal from the media all the way out to the speaker cable to understand where they're going. I asked (directly) how a DSD signal would be dealt with and TI indicated it would be converted to PCM before being passed on to the amplifier stage.

Denon, who incorporates custom Burr-Brown (a division of TI) DACs (1791s to be exact) for both PCM (up to 24/192K) or DSD in their DVD-5900. It does Bass Mgmt and Time Alignment by converting DSD into PCM. FWIW, I could detect no sonic difference in either of my systems when Bass Mgmt was engaged or whether I used Source Direct for SA-CD recordings when I had this player in for review.

I have been told there is an article that will be printed in the March 2004 issue of the Journal of the AES that makes for interesting reading from Stanley Lipshitz.

As for high-resolution audio and compression codecs go,
MLP wasn't designed specifically for DVD-Audio. It's maximum limitation is 64 channels encoded at 24-bits/192kHz for the time being. It is more than adequate for the job you're asking.

Cheers,

 

[Michael St. Clair]

Signal processing = math; I can't even imagine trying to perform unconstrained mathematics on one-bit offset/relative numbers instead of absolute numbers like those used in PCM.

I suspect this is part of the reason for DSD-Wide...which of course is not called PCM Narrow, because TPTB have worked so hard discrediting the whole concept of PCM.

 

[John Kotches]

Michael,

I have heard DSD being referred to as "highly degenerate PCM" from more than one person...

Cheers,

 

[Lee Scoggins]

And yet DVDA is struggling mightily despite these people's perceived technical superiority. Hmmm, I wonder why that is.