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Sony HS10 owners - notice red in your blacks?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Kevin_W, May 6, 2002.

  1. Kevin_W

    Kevin_W Second Unit

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    As of late I have really noticed this on my 2 year old 61HS10 but can't yet tell if its getting worse since I've really just noticed it recently.

    Anyway, whenever I am watching a movie and they fade to black, or just an all black scene, you can really see the reddish black. Especially when using the 16:9 squeeze mode... The top and bottom black "bars" that are there due to the CRT not scanning that area in 16:9 mode look so nice and black, while the blacks in the movie are so red. Its really a shocking contrast. I realize I'll never get as black as those scanless areas, but this is bad (IMO).

    I have spent much time with Avia and the TV controls trying to tame it down. the only thing that works is bringing the contrast up, but not only is it unhealthy for the crt, its not calibrated correctly and is only band-aids the problem.

    Have any other HS10 owners noticed such an issue? Is there a piece of hardware that is going bad that would explain it?

    Everything else still looks great. colors are crisp and fleshtones are right on (IMO)... just the black setting is awful. Also, I understand the value of ISF, but this appears to be something that has popped up recently, so I'd like to determine if its hardware failing before I spend the money for an ISF technician.

    Thanks for reading,

    Kevin

    [edited to fix my poor grammar :b]
     
  2. Jed M

    Jed M Cinematographer

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    Kevin, I own a 53HS10 and so far I have not noticed what you are talking about. Have you tried another dvd player? Or changed cables? Have you done any of the service menu changes? I'm just thinking out loud really. I will put in a few movies and really watch, but what you described should be fairly noticeable. I hope this doesnt become a problem with these tvs.
     
  3. Ken Solo

    Ken Solo Auditioning

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    Amazing how this "problem" still is being asked...I have (or had) the same problem.

    It doesn't affect all HS10 (or in my case XBR300), but only some.

    A possible solution is to get a SOny tech to come in and adjust the red gun (done by turning a red dial located IN the set).

    It is very tricky though...if turned too much the red blacks became green blacks. I experimented with it on my own and found that I was able to tweek it fairly well enough that my black screens now look black.

    In fact with some letterboxed material (and with the tv set at 16:9), the black bars are sometimes indistinguishable from the non-scanned black areas.
     
  4. Kevin_W

    Kevin_W Second Unit

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    Ken,

    Sorry if I dug up old news, but I don't frequent this section of the forum often. Do you have any sites that I can visit that will get me some more information on the issue?

    Did you call Sony? Was it something they were willing to come out and fix under warranty?

    Thanks for the info.

    Kevin
     
  5. Kevin_W

    Kevin_W Second Unit

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    Thanks for the tips Jed. Unfortunately, the problem persists on all inputs, not just DVD player. Wish it was that easy.

    Kevin
     
  6. Michael TLV

    Michael TLV THX Video Instructor/Calibrator

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    Greetings

    On the face of it ... it sounds like just a grayscale issue that is easily solved by an ISF guy or even you if you are willing to delve into the service menu to adjust the RCUT parameter (or b/G Cuts).

    However, if it just suddenly became like this, it may be an indication of something happening to the red portion of the electronics.

    You can call a tech in to repair the and he may just do as stated above ... or may make things worse ...

    It may be fine ... and then a couple weeks later, it goes red again ... and then another trip by the tech ...

    The problem has to be demonstratable and obvious.

    Regards
     
  7. Ken Solo

    Ken Solo Auditioning

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    Kevin...I definitely did not mean to say that it is "uncool" to bring back up old problems/issues.

    I was just wanting to say that it is amazing how I was freakin out and pulling hairs out on this issue in the past, and that even up to today, I am somewhat glad that I am not the only one.

    I tried the Rcut (as Michael suggested) first but had no success (it was good but not good enough).

    Then I called the techs and got them to try to adjust the FOCUS Block (located in the front of the set, behind the wooden panel). I didn't want to touch it at first for warranty reasons. The tech adjusted it and it was A LOT better. However after a dvd movie, I found the tech may have over adjusted and now I have a hint of blue where the red was. I decided to tweek it myself afterwards as it was so simple, and I didnt want to wait for the tech again.
     
  8. Ken Solo

    Ken Solo Auditioning

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    Oh also...it should be covered under warranty.

    Just tell the tech that the blacks look reddish and that you have tried changing the color setting with no succees.

    Tell them that you just started noticing it. And tell him that you have seen a friend's set with this problem and that the Sony Tech came in to adjust the red from the FOCUS BLOCK (not from the service level menu).
     
  9. Kevin_W

    Kevin_W Second Unit

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    Thanks for the good info Ken. Would you mind if I emailed you to discuss the focus block a little more?

    Kevin
     
  10. Ken Solo

    Ken Solo Auditioning

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    sure...feel free to email me...[email protected]
     
  11. Gregg Loewen

    Gregg Loewen Video Standards Instructor, THX Ltd.
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    Ken and Kevin.

    The "focus block" adjustment is the TV's bias control (trim pots). These should NOT be adjusted without the aid of a volt meter.

    What Michael suggested is DEAD ON THE MONEY. If you have red in your blacks your red cut value is too high.

    Also remember that when you (if you) adjust the trim pots you will only be getting the gray scale closer, you will then need to adjust the cuts and drives to compensate and make the gray scale accurate through out the various shades of gray.
     
  12. Kevin_W

    Kevin_W Second Unit

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    Gregg,
    So when are you coming to Detroit? [​IMG]
    Assuming you note all settings you change, is adjusting the RCUT parameters pretty straight forward? I realize getting into any TV's service modes is risky business, but for someone willing to give it a shot, is it something that can easily be undone - or fewer pitfalls that can arise? Some changes that go bad can create a domino effect and pretty soon you're really up shit's creek.
    Also, what is your opinion of ISF'ing a TV that is well over two years old?
    Kevin
     
  13. Gregg Loewen

    Gregg Loewen Video Standards Instructor, THX Ltd.
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    Calibrating it is fine. Is it a HD capable one? If so, definitely worth it, if you want your blacks black and your whites white.

    If you enter the service menu, write down all the values before you change anything. Remember that changing one of the cut values will cause a need to change a drive value. It is a balancing act and should be done with the proper equipment. It wouldnt hurt to take the red cut down a couple of notches and see its effect. When you change a drive value, the black setting will change alot. When you change a cut value there is a much smaller percentage of a change to the white setting.

    If you were to have asked yesterday I could have stopped by on my way to Chicago 2 weeks from now. I could stop by perhaps around June 15th. Email me if interested.

    I hope this helped??
     
  14. Kevin_W

    Kevin_W Second Unit

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    Yea its HD capable... but unfortunately those buggers at Sony decided to put two component inputs on it, but only allow one to be used for HD *or* anamorphic DVD's. How will ISF'ing one input look on two different components (i will eventually have some device that switches DVD/HD).

    Well let me ask you Gregg, I'll only need the greyscale set and this red issue corrected. Convergence is excellent for out of the box. Email me a quote of what you think it'll cost. In the mean time I am going to experiement with these RCUT parameters. Someone else on the Yahoo Sony forum has my exact issue and played with the RCUTs and DRV settings and even the pots with no success... I'm thinking I should call in a service tech but the problem really has to be addressed in the evening since my room gets a lot of light in the daytime.

    Thanks for taking the time Gregg.

    Kevin
     
  15. Gregg Loewen

    Gregg Loewen Video Standards Instructor, THX Ltd.
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    the ISF pricing is $275 for gray scale ( I think ).
    My pricing is $400 for your type of TV. Go to www.greggloewen.com to see a listing of the tweeks that are included at that price.
    A service tech is going to mess with the trim pots (most probably anyways). This will take red down throughout all shades of gray.
     
  16. Kevin_W

    Kevin_W Second Unit

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    Are the items listed in the services section the tweaks included in the RPTV package? The pricing section just states $400 for Greyscale on one input.

    Thanks again. I'm going to email you with some other questions about the details.

    Kevin
     
  17. Gregg Loewen

    Gregg Loewen Video Standards Instructor, THX Ltd.
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    The following is taken from my web page. It is all inclusive for the $400 price:

    Video Services provided

    I provide full service calibrations not just gray scale correction and front panel adjustment. Your video display device cost a small fortune so don’t you want it to be able to display the most detailed and accurate picture possible? The following is a list of services provided for one input type (usually component 480P):

    Pre evaluation of the viewing environment

    Pre evaluation of the display device, projector, and cabling

    Removal of the protective screen (where applicable)

    Mechanical disconnection of SVM circuit

    Image centering

    Minimization of overscan

    Correction of major geometry errors

    Convergence touch up of all NTSC modes

    Electronic focus adjustments

    Mechanical focus adjustments

    Cleaning of optics

    Herman TLV Maneuver for applicable Toshiba sets

    Grey scaleGrayscale adjustment to 6500 D Kelvin

    Centering of front panel controls when ever possible

    Adjustment of front panel controls from within the service menu

    Color decoder adjustment where possible, either via service menu adjustment, EepromEEPROM Reflashing (I2C Fix), or installation of a red push attenuator.

    Lense striping, when required, to achieve a color temperature variation of less than 500 Kelvin.

    Computer generated report showing pre and post calibration settings

    Depending on the display device additional inputs may also be calibrated. These inputs include high definition (1080i), S Video (480i), etc. These additional services may be requested at the time of the calibration. As your display device ages the color guns will wear. To maintain accurate color throughout the life of the display it is recommended that the set be calibrated annually. Please see pricing for subsequent work.
     

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