Sony DVP-NS500V : Bass management? (1 Viewer)

[Jack Gilvey]

Hi Forumers,
Looking not to invest a whole lot in SACD at this point and needing a replacement DVD that plays CD-Rs, I was considering this player as a good combo. However, someone who's got one says in this thread that there's no bass management for SACD whatsoever, just for DD...what's the deal?
While I have your rapt attention, any reason to go with the SCD-CE775 changer purely for reasons of SACD quality?
Thanks, you're "all that".

 

[Ryan Spaight]

I responded over on the "other" forum, but here it is again for the benefit of HTFers:
The bass management *definitely* has an effect on the SACD, just not necessarily the effect you might expect or want.
Setting speakers to small clearly strips the bass out of them -- no problem there.
However, the LFE (.1) channel is set at least 10db too low. Dolby Digital and DTS DVD soundtracks boost the LFE level by 10db, sort of as a loudness compensator, I guess. However, MC SACDs don't appear to do this. If you've calibrated your 5.1 system to take the 10db boost into account, then you'll hear very weak bass from the LFE channel on SACD. You can "fix" this by boosting the "sub" channel 10db in the player's setup menu. You'll still need to fiddle with the sub gain to get things exactly right, but you'll be a lot closer.
Further, redirecting the sub channel to the mains doesn't work, since it's redirected 10db too low, and there's no way to boost it once it's mixed in. So you've got to use a line-level sub.
Finally, there's no "2CH + sub" mode on the 500 for using stereo SACDs with a line-level-connected sub, as there is with the CE775 and other audio-only Sony players. So you've got to hook up the sub speaker-level.
If you've been paying attention, you now realize the big problem.
So, the bass management is there, but it may as well not be.
For a cheap stereo SACD/DVD/CD-R machine, it's a great deal, especially at the new reduced prices. But if you don't have full-range speakers all around, don't expect to get multichannel to work without heartache and rewiring (or the purchase of an ICBM).
Ryan

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Thank you very much, Ryan, for that information. Looks like I'll go with the 775, since it will also solve my CD-R problem and appears to have more versatile BM. So damn cheap, too.

 

[Ryan Spaight]

No problem. I've got one of each, but I haven't tried the bass management in the 775 at all, since it's in my stereo-only system. I don't know if the 775's bass management behaves any better than the 500's, but I do know for sure that it has the "2CH+sub" mode for stereo SACDs. (Note that the bass management doesn't affect CDs at all, but you should be able to use your receiver's bass management for those.)

I do like the 775 better for playing music, since its controls and displays are geared exclusively toward that, rather than the 500's compromise between audio and video functions. For $250, it's a steal.

Ryan

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Well, I wound up grabbing a 500V anyway to experiment with since I needed a new DVD/CD-R and, for the $200 I paid, SACD was basically free. Figured I could grab a dedicated SACD if need be.

I've not played around much with it yet, but the most obvious problem is the lack of a subwoofer signal for stereo SACD's from the multichannel outs, as you mentioned.

What I'm doing for stereo SACD, in that case, is using the stereo outs from the player. The receiver then applies its own bass-management to it. I've A/B'd this to the multi inputs and, aside from no sub with the multi, I can't really discern a difference.

So far pretty nice, better than cd even over my modest multi-channel system.

 

[Ryan Spaight]

Cool, glad you're liking it!

SACD gurus will tell you that using the receiver's bass management for SACD is a no-no since the receiver does an analog-to-digital conversion, does the bass management, then converts back to analog. This is bad because the receiver's A/D and D/A converters are of lesser quality than the SACD source (not to mention PCM instead of DSD) and thus degrade the signal.

But if you can't tell a difference and are happy with the result, that's all that matters. Enjoy!

Ryan

 

[Jack Gilvey]

SACD gurus will tell you that using the receiver's bass management for SACD is a no-no since the receiver does an analog-to-digital conversion, does the bass management, then converts back to analog. This is bad because the receiver's A/D and D/A converters are of lesser quality than the SACD source (not to mention PCM instead of DSD) and thus degrade the signal.

You (and they) are right, of course, and this is something I was aware of, but I think this is the only way for me to get bass with stereo SACD while still having everything set up properly for DD/DTS.

The system this is in, an Onkyo 575x with JBL NSP-1 speakers, is certainly not what you'd call "overly-resolving", which is probably why I don't find much difference (the "forgiving" character is just what I wanted for movies, though, which is its primary role). On the pure DSD Yoyo Ma "Solo", I do hear more "airiness" and ambience from the direct feed, but the analog-sourced "Texas Flood" is a very close call (again, slightly more "airiness" and extension to cymbals). "Kind of Blue" sounds quite a bit better than the already-excellent Columbia/Legacy cd remaster. The Roger Waters' cuts from the sampler sound breathtaking, the opening to "Perfect Sense Pt.1" is the most immersive surround experience I've experienced

I've owned a few systems in this room, most notable being an MMG setup and Spica TC-60's driver by Quicksilver EL34 monos, so I'm pretty aware of the shortcomings of this HT system, but I'm happy with what it does. At least it will allow me some of the benefits of multichannel SACD until a nice universal player comes along with good bass-management and I get a proper surround setup built.

 

[Ryan Spaight]

You (and they) are right, of course, and this is something I was aware of, but I think this is the only way for me to get bass with stereo SACD while still having everything set up properly for DD/DTS.

Yep -- it's gotta work in the real world, and it sounds like you've found a compromise that works for you. My current setup is a rat's nest of compromises that I can live with.
And for $200, the 500V is a perfectly reasonable stopgap until a more fully cooked universal player appears. At least, that's my plan. I'll live with the imperfect bass management until then -- SACDs still sound great.
Ryan

 

[Jack Gilvey]

I think that it won't be too much of an issue for me anyway, as I think I'll probably tend toward multichannel titles rather than replace stereo stuff that I've got in other formats.
Question: Is the stereo track on a multichannel SACD a discrete stereo one, or some sort of "folddown" from 5.1?
One thing I just found out this morning (almost embarassed to admit it) is that DVD-A titles also include a DD or DTS 5.1 track of the mix, so I can grab some of those also. Not the highest resolution to be sure, but I do like much of what's released on DVD-A. And I'll have a decent collection when that perfect universal player happens along.
Thanks for your help again.

 

[Ryan Spaight]

Stereo tracks on SACD are always dedicated tracks, not folddowns. It's my understanding that all SACDs, including multichannel titles, include a dedicated stereo mix as part of the format spec.

On DVD-A it's never quite clear from the packaging whether you get true stereo or a folddown. In fairness, the DVD-A folddown process is much more advanced than Dolby Digital's, in that the mixer can embed cues into the multichannel mix to assign the stereo channels, but the results are still widely considered inferior to a "real" stereo mix.

I own exactly one DVD-A title (the Firesign Theater's Boom Dot Bust), so I'm hardly an authority, but I've read the DTS tracks (and to a lesser extent the DD tracks) on DVD-As often sound very good.

Ryan

 

[Charles J P]

Does anyone know if the sony 650v has the same SACD decoder and same bass management problems as the 500, or does it use bass management similar to the audio only players?

 

[KeithH]

Ryan,
You are right in that all multi-channel SACDs included dedicated stereo tracks as part of the format protocol.
Jack,
Congrats. on your purchase. If you are looking for suggestions for quality SACDs, post a question on the music board. Many here can make suggestions, and I just might myself.