Sony BDP-S1 Bluray Player not having advanced surround decoding, why the frack not?

Discussion in 'Playback Devices' started by Dave Moritz, Sep 12, 2006.

  1. Dave Moritz

    Dave Moritz Producer
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    Dolby® Digital Plus(Dolby® Digital audio stream only), Dolby® TrueHD (Dolby® Digital audio stream only) dts®-HD --- (dts audio stream only) Digital Out and decoding capability Dolby® Digital and dts® 5.1channel Output

    While Sony is in the middle of a format war with Toshiba's HD-DVD and seems to be falling behind. And while Toshiba's HD-A1 offers onboard decoding of Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby True HD and maybe even DTS-HD, not absolutly sure of the DTS-HD part. But why oh why is Sony making yet another curcial mistake not offering internal decoding of these formats? When you can go out and buy an HD-DVD player for $500 and have the ability to decode advanced audio surround formats. And the competing Sony Bluray that cost twice as much does not. Is this supposed to make us all want to rush out and buy a so called premium Bluray player?

    Ok so it is a true 1080p platform and will output 1080p to our displays. And it can upconvert all our exsisting dvd's to HD like resolutions. And they have finally started to produce VC-1 encoded discs instead of the horible MPEG2 discs. While a 1080p picture at this point in time is the holly grail, what good is that pretine picture going to be without Dobly True HD and DTS-HD surround sound? Why in the frack are we being limited to the same DD/DTS 5.1 tracks that have been around from the DVD format. Why are they not at least using Dolby Digital Plus 6.1 or DTS-ES 6.1? And why are they not using Dolby True HD and DTS-HD?

    If Toshiba can offer this in a player costing half as much! Why cant Sony put these audio features in a $1k player? Does this make anyone here want to spend $1k on a Sony BDP-S1 Bluray player? Does the lack of Dolby True HD and DTS-HD encoded discs make you want to buy that same player? And if it will output these formats via HDMI-3 how long will we have to wait before these decoding abilities are available in surround sound recievers and pre/pro's? Do we just start buying DTS-HD Mater Audio discs or Dolby True HD disc with no way to play them back on our HT's? Especially with companies like Denon waiting to see how the format war pans out. Companies like Denon will not be producing a Bluray player anytime soon and there are no plans to offer the newer advanced surround decoding in there product any time soon. There is also no release dates for any new product from any companies regaurding these new surround formats.

    Sony was suposadly going to offer new reciever models and other products once there Bluray player was released. I dont even see Sony offering DTS-HD decoding or even Dolby True HD decoding with there new recievers. I would love to own a 1080p Bluray player but there are some things that make me wonder why I should spend that kind of money? Especially when it seems like we are getting a Bluray Lite player instead of a full blown Bluray HD player. Until Sony gets there act together I will just keep buying HD-DVD discs and wait to see what happens.

    Obviously Sony does not share THX's opinion that sound is at least half the movie going experience if there player is only going to offer plain 5.1 DD / DTS. Instead of DD+, Dolby True HD and DTS-HD!

    Well if Bluray fails Sony you have no one to blame but yourselves [​IMG]. And maybe this will force Sony to go back to being a hardware manufacture, and maybe they will learn something from this for a change? Or maybe not.









    j
     
  2. Austan

    Austan Second Unit

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    More bad news for the early Blues-Ray adaptors... [​IMG]
     
  3. Michael Osadciw

    Michael Osadciw Screenwriter

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    Dave...I wouldn't worry so much yet...things will be fine on the Blu-ray side. Trust me.

    Mike
     
  4. Seth=L

    Seth=L Screenwriter

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    It's funny, I used to think, eons ago, that Sony was the best in the business for everything. Silly me.
     
  5. Dave Moritz

    Dave Moritz Producer
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    I am not saying that Sony does not and is not capible of making some great stuff. As I have owned Sony gear and currently own a Sony DVP-S9000 ES DVD/SACD player and a 1 year old Sony LCD 50" HDTV. And I am still seriously considering the Sony BDP-S1 Bluray player even though I am currently frustrated with the messy job Sony has done so far. Sony has made some good CD players, some really good SACD players, really good TV's and HDTV's and some really good camcorders.

    I however would not buy Sony Xpod car audio products, Sony cassette decks, Sony Recievers or Sony amplifiers. Sony can be really good when they want to be. But they use to many low grade parts in there standard product offerings, (Non ES line). I would not even chose to purchase a Sony ES reciever over a model offered by Denon, Sunfire, Adcom, Rotel and Yamaha. Actually I would not even use a current ES reciever over my current Yamaha RX-V995. My Sony DVP-S9000 ES however is great and I will be keeping it my HT as a high end SACD / CD player even after all my upgrades are done. Sony also can not compete against companies like Adcom, McIntosh, Meridian, Krell just to name a few.

    When Sony is good there great, but when they are bad the kinda suck. IMHO

    I remember when Sony had there ES line for car audio, dam its was good. But after the cheap and trendy looking X pod junk came out I refused to buy it. I was going to save up and buy a Sony ES car deck but after it was discontinued I bought something much better than a X Pod model, I bought a Eclipse car deck. [​IMG]
     
  6. BrettGallman

    BrettGallman Screenwriter

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    Wow. Any chance they'll be able to decode the advanced formats via firmware upgrades?

    If not, that's a shame. I was considering picking up the Sony player because I figured it'd be able to live up to Blu-Ray's full potential. Guess I'll have to wait and see.
     
  7. Dennis Nicholls

    Dennis Nicholls Lead Actor

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    IIRC it also doesn't do Sony's own SACD format....
     
  8. Dave Moritz

    Dave Moritz Producer
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    I would hope that it would offer new surround sound decoding via a firmware update. But at this time I am not going to hold my breath to long. While its going to be a true 1080p player and upconvert SD-DVD's to 1080p via a HDMI ver 1.3 conection. And while its a shame that Sony is not even going to support its own SACD format on there own player. I allready have a Sony DVP-S9000 ES that will play SACD's in stereo. Plus after I upgrade to a new reciever with HDMI 1.3 I will use the 5.1 analogs from my Denon DVD-2200 to play 2 channel and multi channel SACD and DVD-A. I have a bigger problem with the player not coming with the ability to decode Dolby True HD and DTS-HD surround codex.

    I am glad that Bluray VC-1 discs will soon be on retailers shelves and that we will finally have great quality HD discs for Bluray. It now just a matter of when we actually see dual layer disc for Bluray and how good will the Sony and Pioneer machines be? Will they be rock solid or will they have lots of bugs? Will they allready include HDMI 1.3 so they can readily output Dolby True HD and DTS-HD? In that case it will be easier to wait for an external decoder to use those surround formats later. The only problem with that is when will we see product on the shelves? Many equipment manufacturers now have test chips so they can start designing there new recievers and pre/pros. But as I was told by at least two companies it will more likely be the end of 07" before we see anything. That offers Dolby True HD or DTS-HD in our local retailers and then I am wondering what the price tag will be.

    I had wanted a Denon reciever to replace my older Yamaha RX-V995 but I was told via email that they have no plans to offer such a product at this time. It is my intention to buy a better quality reciever than the one I have now. I have no intention of buying a Sony, Sherwood, Kenwood, JVC, Panasonic or Phillips recievers. I am focusing on brands like Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Adcom, B&K, Anthem, Pioneer Elite, Rotel, Sunfire and maybe Onkyo.
     
  9. ppltd

    ppltd Producer

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    The Reciever issue is a problem. I purchased a Pioneer Elite reciever just 4 months ago. Looks like I will be forced to trade it in soon.
     
  10. Dave Moritz

    Dave Moritz Producer
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    I can see that would be a problem especially if it does not have hdmi 1.3 switching and the firmware can not be updated to use the new surround formats. Even though you have a nice reciever its going to suck having to trade it in. I have been wanting to trade up my Yamaha for a few years now and have held off, just because I had a feeling I should. Especially afer attending the CES show in 03 and 04 in Vegas.

    Depending on money availability I may be looking at a Pioneer Elite or a Denon reciever. Then hopefully I will pick up a really good external amp using a toridal transformer. But my next reciever will have to have hdmi 1.3, DD+, Dolby True HD and DTS-HD.

    I would love to know what version of hdmi the Sony and Pioneer Elite Bluray players will be shipping with. Nether web site has any information on what version of hdmi they will be using. I really want to start getting into Bluray but I will not jump in blind before I find out wether the player is a lion or a lamb.
     
  11. Dave Moritz

    Dave Moritz Producer
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    Ok here we go. One thing that is still not answered is when will HDMI 1.3 be included in the Bluray players? Especially with the Sony BDP-S1? Sony seemed to talk about a few new 1080p HD products at this years CEDIA show. They talked about the Sony Bluray, Sony ES reciver that would retail around $1500 and had 1080p switching, new 1080p HD rear projection tv's and the new 1080p HD projectors. How ever nothing was said about when and if the Bluray player would offer HDMI 1.3 or if it could be upgraded with a firmware update. They also to my knoweldge did not mention what version of HDMI they where using with the new ES reciver.

    Granted I am not interested in Sony's recievers so it doesnt really mater for my own HT. But its still something that would be good to know for others that are interested in a Sony reciever and are planing to purchase a Bluray player soon.

    Here is the major problem the way I see it. If Sony's BDP-S1 can not output Dolby True HD and DTS-HD to an external processor, once they become available. And HDMI can not be upgraded to 1.3 via the ethernet conection or a CD rom. Even with dual layer discs and VC-1 encoded movies. Why spend $1k for a player that can not decode or output any new surround formats? I am guessing that HDMI 1.3 is not required for 1080p video by itself. As the Sony BDP-S1 Bluray, Sony STR-DA5200ES reciver and the Sony SXRD™ 1080P Home Theater Front Projector[​IMG]VPL-VW50 does not seem to include HDMI 1.3.

    So is it only needed by audio formats like Dolby True HD and DTS-HD?

    I don't know about other people here but I have to scrape up the money and go without in order to upgrade something on my HT. So if I was to purchase a Sony BDP-S1 and it does not even output Dolby True HD or DTS-HD. I can not afford to turn around and buy yet another exspensive Bluray player just to be able to enjoy those surround formats with those Bluray titles. This would basically take away from money that would go towards a new updated reciever that is badly needed.

    There are most likely alot of us here that just dont have that kind of money to spend because Sony is stupid and just can't seem to get it right. Granted the thought of a Sony SXRD native 1080p projector for $5k is very exciting. And it brings the reality of 1080p projection closer to reality for many HT enthousiast.

    The question remains will the Sony bluray player be capible of HDMI 1.3 and do we need it for sure? Do we have to have it for 1080p video? And do we have to have it to output Dolby True HD and DTS-HD surround?

    If this player will output DTS-HD and Dolby True HD without HDMI 1.3. And as long as it can output 1080p without HDMI 1.3. And the Sony bluray player is rock solid and the VC-1 titles are solely used for bluray titles.

    Well then I will be all over the Sony Bluray player and will buy one asap!
     
  12. dkny75

    dkny75 Stunt Coordinator

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    I didn't know you could just update something with a firmware update to make it HDMI 1.3. I thought it was the actual hardware that was called HDMI 1.3 or did I completely not understand what you wrote? (seriously i'm stuffing my face w/pizza right now so that could be)

    Also I thought that HDMI 1.3 was shipping in October or sometime this month to be included in the high end PS3. Since the Sony BD player was spec'ed a while ago, wouldn't it be too late to include it now?
     
  13. Dave Moritz

    Dave Moritz Producer
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    I was not sure if it was possible or not to update the ver of hdmi so I was just putting it out there. If its not possible to update the ver of hdmi then I am just wondering what would be the point of buying the Sony Bluray?

    Will HDMI 1.2 output Dolby Plus, Dolby True HD and DTS-HD?

    Sony is so behind the curve right now and the just seem to keep falling further behind. Especially since Toshiba will be soon releasing there HD-XA2 HD-DVD player with 1080p output and HDMI ver 1.3 as well. When the Sony BDP-S1 is released on or about October 25, 2006. It sucks because while it will output 1080p it will only offer HDMI 1.2. The Sony does not seem to offer Dolby True HD or DTS-HD ether. From what Ronald Epstein has been saying about Bluray it sound encouraging. But at the same time I am wondering why I should pay $1k for a player that will not do Dolby True HD and DTS-HD and will not have HDMI 1.3?

    I can justify spending $1k on a nicer updated gen2 HD-DVD player that has all the support for the new audio formats and HDMI 1.3 as well. It is getting tougher to want to spend that same amout on a Bluray player that will not support those same formats and not use the new HDMI that is available.

    So this makes me wonder, does Sony realy want Bluray to sucssed or is Sony that stupid?
     
  14. Jesse Blacklow

    Jesse Blacklow Cinematographer

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    Dave, maybe you'll want to go with the Sharp Aquos DV-BP1? It mentions decoding DD+, TrueHD, and DTS-HD:MA and the display player has the logos. Still $999, no word on HDMI version (but they mention 1.3 for a TV), and looks like no analog out.
     
  15. Dave Moritz

    Dave Moritz Producer
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    Thanks for the heads up on the Sharp Jesse. I am not sure I could get myself to spend $1k on a Sharp though. I also had an issue spending $1k on a Samsung as well. And I am not sure I would spend that kind of cash of a Panasonic ether. I guess I just do not consider these companies to be on par with companies like Pioneer Elite, Denon, Sony, Yamaha ect....

    I am trying to elevate the overall quality of my HT so I just can't see myself buying and placing a Sharp, Panasonic, Samsung or RCA product in my HT. Granted I have to acnowledge that Samsung does make a really nice RP-HDTV.

    While the player decoding the new audio codex like Dolby True HD and DTS-HD would be great. I am not sure about the quality of the rest of the player. And for $1k I would be more likely to check it out for $500 but not for $1k.
     
  16. Dave Mack

    Dave Mack Producer

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    It also can't play CDs...


    [​IMG]
     
  17. Robert Crawford

    Robert Crawford Moderator
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    I don't like to negatively discuss any brand name, but Toshiba IMO, isn't any better quality-wise than Panasonic, Samsung and that RCA HD DVD player they make for RCA.
     
  18. Michael Osadciw

    Michael Osadciw Screenwriter

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    Robert

    I have to agree with you 100%. It's been sad to watch Toshiba's level of quality products diminish over the years. They were once the leading consumer company for high definition televisions...as years went by, they missed the boat with new technologies (their first DLP line-up was very late and horrible looking) and product delays have hurt them (abandoning LcOS)...and they are still experiencing this with their yet-to-be released SED. I wouldn't be surprised if they abandon SED before Q4 '07.

    Mike
     
  19. Edwin-S

    Edwin-S Producer
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    I have read that Toshiba has been working on perfecting SED technology for the last 20 years. Why would they abandon it with so much time and money invested in it: especially since they are so close to coming to market. I hope they don't abandon it, since the technology sounds superior to the present display technolgies such as DLP and LcoS.

    Their HD DVD player appears to well constructed. It certainly looks like better build quality than the Samsung. How the Sony BDP-S1 build quality compares to the Toshiba player remains to be seen. The BDP-S1 presently seems to be at disadvantage because of the inability to take advantage of the new audio codecs.
     
  20. ppltd

    ppltd Producer

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    Actually, other than Pioneer (asumming it is their Elite line) there are no stand out manufacturer currently, or soon to be making HD or BR hardware. Toshiba and Samsung have been second rate HW companies for a while, and Sony has not had a very good track record for at least three or four years (Toshiba just had to recall in excess of 100,000 laptop batteries manufactured by Sony. Just saw it on FOX news as I am typing.) How's that for odd bed fellows...[​IMG]

    The good manufacturers will sit back and wait it out, I believe.

    As a side comment, I must say I have been pretty impressed with the Toshiba built (XA1). Not perfect, but not bad. Now for the Pioneer. That is what I am waiting for.
     

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