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Solution for low bass on HD-A1 using analog 5.1

Discussion in 'Playback Devices' started by Pete T C, Jul 16, 2006.

  1. Clinton McClure

    Clinton McClure Rocket Science Department
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    I have not been able to find a copy of DVE locally since it's release and I haven't bothered ordering it. I'm still using the original Video Essentials and the band-limited pink noise supplied on it.

    I believe the full range tones are useful only if you are calibrating through an equalizer, such as calibrating a .1 channel through a Berhinger Feedback Destroyer.

    I do not know the tone difference between DVE and the THX optimizer on certain discs. I always calibrate with an actual calibration disc and leave it at that. I read somewhere that the THX optimizer on each disc is different and useful only for the movie with which it is supplied, IE the Raiders optimizer will be different from the Empire Strikes Back optimizer, etc... HOWEVER I have never tried an optimizer so this may not be true.

    As for the SPDIF being louder, I do not know why but it seems to be the case that it will run quite a few dBs hotter than analog.
     
  2. David Ely

    David Ely Supporting Actor

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    I can't get the internal sub test tone to work no matter what settings I use. I can here the test tone through DVE, so I don't really care. Now I just need to buy a new 9V battery for my SPL meter. It seems I left it on for the past 4 months [​IMG]
     
  3. Nick Graham

    Nick Graham Screenwriter

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    Pete, I did the steps you mention in the original post, and it did increase my LFE quite a bit, but it also caused all the other channels to become much more quiet, even with my receiver turned up higher than usual. So at this point I'm stuck between minimal LFE but incredibly dynamic sounding fronts and rears, or farily decent LFE and the other channels playing way too low.

    I wish there was a simple way to fix this.....

    BTW, the receiver is a Pioneer VSX-D812K
     
  4. Dennis Heller

    Dennis Heller Second Unit

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    Should I expect the same problem with my Pioneer 1015tx when (if) I get an HD-A1? Is there a thread here or elsewhere with more info about this problem?

    I guess I'm looking for an opinion - at least for a while I have an older (3-4 years) Mitsubishi rear projection CRT with DVI only (1080i), and the above-mentioned receiver - do the benefits of this player outweigh the problems? I like that the current player is more feature-rich than its replacement, and I'd like to jump in, but I've never been an early adopter, so I'm a little put off. Any opinions on this player matched with my equipment?
     
  5. tdamocles

    tdamocles Auditioning

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    I think it has to do 100% with the hardware. I have a HK 335 which has analog inputs but it is a pass through with no bass management. LFE and subwoofer(bass redirection) management are two different things. If one is using analog out via 5.1 outputs than you are changing the level of LFE and any bass under your set crossover when the 'receiver' boosts the bass after the fact (after decoding in the player). I really don't think there is a work around if using analog outs because the LFE and bass redirection has already been decided by the time it passes through the analog outs. There is no way to just change LFE level.... The only work around may be lowering the mains -10db and leave the sub at 0db in the player. Is one able to change LFE level with some of the newer HDMI receivers?

    Set me right if this sounds wrong, please......
     
  6. Cees Alons

    Cees Alons Moderator
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    You're saying the same thing. Pete said it has nothing to do with the HD DVD player hardware, but the way the receiver handles the signal. You're saying the same: it's about the way the receiver handles the bass on an incoming LFE-channel.


    Cees
     
  7. tdamocles

    tdamocles Auditioning

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    Actually, I'm trying to say that it is the player's hardware causing this messed up condition when analog outs are used. I need the player's hardware( decoder) to apply the boost because all my receiver is seeing is the analog signal which it can not differentiate between LFE bass and redirected bass at that instant.
     
  8. tdamocles

    tdamocles Auditioning

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    I'm getting confused here, I think. If I let the dvd player perform the bass management than why not just increase the sub output level by 10db at the receiver for the 10db discrepency?
     
  9. Cees Alons

    Cees Alons Moderator
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    No, you can choose the other bass to go to the "LFE" out of your player or not (setting the mains and rears to "small" or not). If the receiver would apply bass management on the analog-in signals (which your receiver apparently doesn't), you didn't have to do it in the player.

    Now, if the receiver, as Pete suggested, doesn't amplify the bass channel enough, it won't amplify both the LFE and the redirected bass coming out of your player in this case. It cannot distinguish between the two, so it will not just amplify the redirected bass.

    In that case, Pete's solution is a good one, because it will restore the level of the two sources together.

    BTW, Robert Crawford had noticed that you need to set the Dialog Enhancement mode of the player to "off" if you listen to TrueHD. That will restore the proper level of the bass channel. Is that applicable in your case too?


    Cees
     
  10. tdamocles

    tdamocles Auditioning

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    In Pete's suggestions he is essentially disabling the players decoder, correct? Thus he is allowing the receiver to decode? If I am exclusively using analog outs does any of this apply?
     
  11. Cees Alons

    Cees Alons Moderator
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    Tom,

    If you want to continue to use the analog channels, you cannot use Pete's solution. And I wonder if you need it in that case.
    Note that his post was made before TrueHD was available on the Toshibas!

    I myself use the analogs out on my HD-A1 as well (ever since the firmware upgrade that enabled TrueHD), and I don't experience any problem with the bass level.

    People who did, often had "Dialog Enhancement" set to "On", and experienced a very audible improvement when they switched it off. In the thread I'm now refering to, a member even had to switch it on and then off again - possibly because he had it "On" when he upgraded the firmware.


    Cees
     
  12. tdamocles

    tdamocles Auditioning

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    Ok, all this LFE stuff is confusing. When setting up my A1, I didnt seem to have any problems - I think....
     
  13. Cees Alons

    Cees Alons Moderator
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    Tom,

    What is the firmware level you are using? And did you indeed try to set the Dialog Enhancement on and then off again?

    About your receiver: does it allow the sound level of the different channels to be adjusted independently? And what's also important: what exactly is the problem you are experiencing?


    Cees
     
  14. Paul.S

    Paul.S Producer

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    Cees:

    I'm confused by this. My understanding is that Pete's solution adjusts the LFE output via the analog 5.1 outputs relative to the SPDIF/coax. What about Pete's solution precludes use of the analog outs (for Dolby TrueHD)?

    God I'm looking forward to figuring all of this bass management stuff out when DVD-Audio is added to the mix with the BD10A. [​IMG]
     
  15. tdamocles

    tdamocles Auditioning

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    Seems like the bass is low.
     
  16. Cees Alons

    Cees Alons Moderator
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    I must admit that my answer was a bit cryptic. Of course you can still use Pete's "trick". Except that you cannot adjust your 5.1 analog levels relative to the same codec using SPDIF when you're playing TrueHD. (It could appear to be similar to the levels in a DD+ signal, though, but that's not certain).

    Perhaps these sort of problems are over soon: we're all expecting a firmware upgrade for the A2 series enabling TrueHD (and DTS-HD MA) bitstreams over HDMI, hopefully one for the A1 series will be released too!


    Tom,

    In the thread I linked to above, James Carpenter says that he DID have the DE turned off, but had to switch it on first - and then off again to have the desired effect.
    Did you try that too?

    (Just using wild guesses at this point, of course. [​IMG] )


    Cees
     
  17. tdamocles

    tdamocles Auditioning

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    I tried switching DE on and then off without it adding any loudness. I just rechecked and I need at least +6db(subwoofer trim) at the receiver for the level to be correct with AVIA.
     
  18. Cees Alons

    Cees Alons Moderator
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    Tom,

    Is that the SD DVD AVIA? Playing on your HD-A1?


    Cees
     
  19. tdamocles

    tdamocles Auditioning

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    Yes it would be.
     
  20. Cees Alons

    Cees Alons Moderator
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    Tom,

    The reason I asked was, because it had to be played on the HD-A12, of course. But also, because there's a new Digital Video Essentials - HD DVD version available.

    Because your weak bass is so in comparison with a calibration using another audio codec, you might want to try this new calibration disc - and it's especially for HD DVD!


    Cees
     

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