So there was no EE on TPM? (1 Viewer)

[Frank]

Doing a Google search on "aperture correction" ringing telecine......returns some interesting information including this.
Very interesting.

 

[Michael Reuben]

And that is something that should worry them, because it diminishes their brand and tarnishes their reputation.

Obviously it does concern them. Otherwise they wouldn't be trying to convene a workshop.
We appear to be expending a great deal of energy beating a horse that isn't dead, but seems to be trying quite hard to do what it should be doing.
M.

 

[Aaron Reynolds]

product meets their specifications (whatever they may be).

As I understand it, THX take the film to video transfer and shepherd it through the many stages to home video, ensuring that it remains the same as the initial transfer. If the ringing occurs in the initial transfer, the transfer given to them as an approved transfer that they are to reproduce exactly, how can they be at fault?

Sure, it could be THX at fault. But why crap on them before we find out, especially while they are trying to get to the bottom of this problem?

Why should they bother to communicate with us about it at all if they know we'll blame them no matter who was responsible?

 

[Jeff Ulmer]

I has beens ome time since I went through the Episode 1 disc, but I most definately noted extreme amounts of ringing throughout the feature - which were notably absent in the supplements. I also can't say exactly what process created these elements, but they are blatently visible to me, and mar an otherwise nice transfer. I would also like to get to the bottom of where this is happening so it doesn't happen again.

I also agree that if the Sony is inducing these elements it should be fixed or junked. This ringing is highly distracting, and doesn't belong there. Let people use the sharpness control on their TV if they want artificial ringing.

 

[Chris Maynard]

Not gonna do it....

 

[David Forbes]

As I understand it, THX take the film to video transfer and shepherd it through the many stages to home video, ensuring that it remains the same as the initial transfer. If the ringing occurs in the initial transfer, the transfer given to them as an approved transfer that they are to reproduce exactly, how can they be at fault?

Who's crapping on them? I specifically said we shouldn't be pointing fingers. But the THX logo says something to the effect of, "certified for optimum video and sound performance." Again, I don't give a rat's ass where the problem is introduced in the chain, all I (or anyone else) care about is the end result. That is the point of certification. And I disagree completely about THX certifying that a DVD remains the same as the initial print. That is explicitly not what they say. Even if that is truly what they do, if the results are another TPM then the consumer who buys a THX DVD will just say, "Hey, this picture sucks compared to XYZ non-THX DVD. What's THX good for?"

Michael, of course I'm glad they're having this workshop, and I agree that they are probably having it because they're concerned about their reputation. I don't think they should be trashed or ambushed or told they don't know what they're doing. But I do want them to show TPM DVD and explain why they think it looks fine. It doesn't. It looks like hell compared to the vast majority of other DVDs I own. If THX certification is no indication of improved picture quality, what good is it?

David Forbes

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Quote:

Because THX is (should) not merely certifying the transfer. They should be certifying the *DVD* image and sound quality. In the days of laserdisc their certification process was a start-to-finish job letting you know that the laserdisc couldn't look or sound any better if they had wanted it to. Why should the rules suddenly change now that we have an improved format like DVD???
If THX has a problem with their mission statement or lacks some clarity in the way they've communicated the meaning of their certification process to the buying public, then they need to strip away the hype surrounding their logo and call it what it is...a rubber stamp that's given on the basis of balancing their desire to present the optimal image and sound quality with their desire to make money and not loose it by placing quality-demands that the studio may consider too high. It's that compromise that poses the greatest threat to what their logo stands for.
-dave

 

[Michael St. Clair]

We appear to be expending a great deal of energy beating a horse that isn't dead, but seems to be trying quite hard to do what it should be doing.

I remain convinced that we should be polite and respectful.
I also remain unconvinced that, if not for at least the first few lashes, the horse would have even gotten off his butt.
Metaphorically speaking, no offense intended.
"Who watches the watchmen?"

 

[Michael Reuben]

I also remain unconvinced that, if not for at least the first few lashes, the horse would have even gotten off his butt.

I'm sure that's true. But now that he's up and moving . . .
M.

 

[Tony Whalen]

Is the horse moving? Maybe...but he looks like he's dragging his butt.
Y'know, until I became a member of this forum, I didn't pay a lot of attention to things like EE. Black levels, yes. Chroma levels, yes. Artifacts, yah. EE? Nope. Didn't care. For the most part, I still don't. It just doesn't bother me that much. (Although I do notice it more...thanks a lot guys. (j/k))
PatrickM is totally on the nose. Except for the home theatre afficianados around here, most people don't care about EE/haloing, or even notice it.
Take me for example. Now, I've only been into the whole 'home theatre' thing for about 1.5 years. But I quite happily have purchased over 150 DVD's in that time, as well as a nice new 32" flat screen. I really didn't find the EE/haloing all that distracting, and I've spent several years as a professional video producer. I've studied video production, and I produced stuff for quite a few local companies over the years. And the haloing still didn't bug me when watching a movie.
With the training I've done, and all the hours upon hours I've spent in an editing suite, I can spot a single frame that has errors/inconsistances. I can spot if the sound isn't synced exactly (within 1-2 frames) to the video...(much to the annoyance of my wife) And still EE/haloing doesn't bug me. (Don't ask me why...you'd think my head would explode...hee!)
Now, I ain't bragging here...not at all. My point is this...if it didn't bother me, with my sharp eyes, what do you think J6P is gonna think about all this? Not much, I'll wager.
Everybody has different tastes and/or priorities.
/rant mode off
Okay...now that that is over with, I do, in fact, agree that THX dropped the ball on this one. While it doesn't bother me to the point that it bothers some folks around here, it certainly doesn't seem up to the standard that THX attempts to create. (I have yet to buy Tombstone, so I'm not commenting on that. But I enjoy my TPM disc.)
BUT...I again agree with what a number of people are saying. Flaming doesn't get us anywhere. Disrespect doesn't either. Constructive critisism works. Let's see if this workshop comes to fruition, and go from there.
Hey! Where's dat horse goin?!
(P.S. Van Ling rocks. )

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

This is a ridiculous statement. For one thing, my image (and Bjoern Roy's) of TPM is not downconverted, so that has no bearing on the issue.

Yes it is. The transfer is at a much higher resolution than the 480i (or even upgraded 480p) of DVDs. When creating the DVD transfer, it is downconverted in both resolution and bytes/sec. It is the job of the DVD authoring companies to distribute the alloted space throughout the film to ensure the best possible transfer. It's entirely possible (albeit unlikely) that the ringing was introduced during this downconversion process.
Also, the EE while present, isn't unbearable. It's possible that alot of what some of you are seeing is generated by your televisions. If the sharpness is set too high, additional ringing will be introduced.
As for Bjoern Roy's analysis, all his examples are extremely zoomed it. While this is perhaps to better acheive the size found on larger television screens, they are selectively zoomed to highlight problems in the transfer. His analysis highlights the worst parts of the transfer, and while not inaccurate, give an imbalanced perspective on it.

 

[Tony Whalen]

Well said Adam.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Now, I ain't bragging here...not at all. My point is this...if it didn't bother me, with my sharp eyes, what do you think J6P is gonna think about all this? Not much, I'll wager.

Funny, I didn't know that J6P was the benchmark that THX was after. I always figured THX was supposed to help us raise the bar from the J6P-common-denomenator mentality that the studios often use in their marketing decisions.
In any case, when viewing a resolving projection system, I'm *amazed* at how often I hear average non-videophile J6P guys say things like "great picture...but what's the ghosting around his head?". No kidding!
-dave

 

[Aaron Reynolds]

I heard that THX's lawyer told them not to host the demo session because of the "procutorial" nature of the reports (snicker snicker). If THX isn't as interested as you and I in the image and sound quality of our DVDs they should just close their doors and send all their staff home--because they have no purpose in existing.

That last one, especially. Jesus, they've offered to run a workshop that people can attend to see for themselves what is happening.

These are all cheap shots. Some make good points, but their points would have more weight if they were delivered politely.

No matter how pissed you are about how Phantom Menace looks on DVD, it is no excuse to lash out at real people who have real feelings just the same as you.

Make you points. Make them politely and constructively. And then maybe we'll all get to the bottom of this.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Sorry Aaron.
I admit I'm a little cynical about the whole thing. You would be too if you spend the last 2 years calling/emailing THX to trying to emplore them to push for 16x9 transfers and to reduce introduced "video" anomolies in images like EE/ringing and listen to them say things like "we don't care" or "we only can certify what the studio will let us" or "well, the studio wouldn't do a new transfer so that's all we could use" or "what ringing...there's no ringing in that transfer."
See why I feel the way I do? My feeling's aren't random or malicious. They're a direct reflection of my experiences with this company.
Weren't we all saying the same negative things about Fox when they were refusing to do 16x9 transfers? And weren't we justified?
At least Fox took the bull by the horns and admitted that they goofed and that they were going to change...and they did.
THX has never admitted they goofed here...and like it has been said before...their stamp is on the disc so it doesn't matter *where* in the chain of events the ringing occured. They need to say "sorry guys...it won't happen again" to earn my respect. Is that really so unreasonable?
Now, if THX wants to make a change, I'll be as happy as the next guy
-dave

 

[Carlo_M]

Thank you Aaron (I was just about to do the same thing).

Are there halos/ringing? Heck yeah.

Should something be done? Heck yeah.

But it's all about the tone which we convey.

Bottom line, we at HTF comprise less than 1% of the DVD buying public. And not even all HTF'ers are concerned with EE. Hey, I know what EE is, I knew TPM had it, and I still bought the disc. Guess what? I bought Tombstone too.

So should THX try to reward less than 0.1% of their buying public, especially if that 0.1% is busy pointing accusatory fingers and slinging mud? If I were in their shoes, I'd be thinking "screw these guys, there's no pleasing them no matter what we do!"

And though THX is not a studio, they don't have any obligation to even read this darned thread (or forum!). The fact that they are listening and trying to do something about it is commendable. Sometimes we here at HTF get too full of ourselves and demand things as if it's our god-given right.

It's not what you ask, it's how you ask it.

 

[RobertR]

David, you state the case forcefully and clearly. We should NOT let THX off the hook on this one (I see posts in this thread going through contortions trying to minimize the problem or otherwise trying to claim it doesn't really exist). REGARDLESS of its origin, it is REAL, it is BAD, and, based on the fact that it's not present in ALL transfers or even in all CGI transfers, it is something that is NOT inescapable. Now is the time for THX (and, for that matter, the studios) to step up to the plate and show by their actions that they DO care about picture quality, rather than issuing bland denials or saying they have nothing to do with the problem (I'm amazed at how people leap to their defense).

I would be very happy to take part in the workshop. The FIRST thing I want done in that workshop is for TPM (and other EE-riddled transfers) to be shown on a large front projection screen while we are sitting there with these people. If they say to my face that they don't see it, we have a major denial problem. If they acknowledge it, but claim it's due to "MPEG Encoding" or some such, then the next step is to show them other transfers that DON'T have a higher bitrate while NOT exhibiting EE (proving that EE is NOT unavoidable). THEN we can start making progress on addressing it. I would like to see exactly what goes into a transfer and how it is processed. None of the above actions imply any sort of disrespect towards them.

 

[Carlo_M]

Ah, David, we crossed posts. Sorry to hear about your history with the company.

But still, I'm waiting on WB to get back to me about replacing My Fair Lady and Wonka, both of which have flaws.

That's life I guess with these companies. I know your frustration, but when you vent it here (although you sound more than justified with your experiences) others pick up that same tone even though they haven't had the experiences you had.

We here at HTF have worked hard in keeping a professional atmosphere and it has encouraged studio participation. I'd hate to lose it because they think we have turned into a more unprofessional version of ourselves.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Robert.

A big Amen.

Carlo,

I didn't think I wasn't being unprofessional...maybe just a big hard-handed. But I think that's fair given what THX is meant to represent and what their goals are proposed to be.

I can only *begin* to tell you the frustration I had when I called them to ask about why they were certifying a 4x3 lbxed Titanic. I talked to two different technical guys on the phone...both of which gave me the "well...on a 4x3 TV...the 4x3 lbxed transfer will look better" and "since it's just DVD...why do you care? It's not like DVD is as good as HDTV or anything...where it would really matter" and "well...Fox didn't want to do a 16x9 transfer and we can't make them...so we certified their 4x3 lbxed transfer." When I suggested that since a 4x3 lbxed transfer by definition sacrifices 33% of the potential vertical resolution inherent on the disc, and therefore might have been a reason for them *not* to certify the transfer on grounds of principle...he said "what!?...we need to make our money so we have to certify what the studio will agree to do."

I hope this helps put the picture (pun intended) into perspective.

So should THX try to reward less than 0.1% of their buying public, especially if that 0.1% is busy pointing accusatory fingers and slinging mud? If I were in their shoes, I'd be thinking "screw these guys, there's no pleasing them no matter what we do!"

It's not about rewarding *us*. It's about a certification process that is supposed to deliver the *highest* audio and video standards falling short of the goal. If I were in their shoes, I'd be thinking "something's wrong with our process as we're certifying DVDs that have artifacts on them that can be avoided. Since it is our goal to certify that a DVD looks and sounds as good as the format is capable of delivering to the consumer...I want this addressed ASAP."

Of course, I'm a videophile and an idealist. But I thought those were two things that THX was supposed to be all about.

-dave

 

[Sean Oneil]

I could drive to LA in about an hour and a half for this workshop. Where and when? I will be there.
This could potentially mean the end of EE as we know it.
PLEASE, make room for me at this workshop!
I have PLENTY of examples of EE transfers, as well as non EE transfers that I could offer up for their feedback.