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Small floor standing speaker shootout... (1 Viewer)

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frank manrique

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Craig,

For what's worth...I always have zeroed-in on the MIDRANGE region of speakers (full range and otherwise) when auditioning/evaluating them (it works in any acoustical venue environment regardless, so long as we know what to look for); if rim shots of snare drums, for instance (am awfully sensitive to such sounds being that I played drums for many years) fail to be reproduced with believable sonics (transient attack), then there are huge intrinsic design flaws!

To illustrate, I once bought a pair of a highly hyped speaker model straight from a certain speaker engineer/designer who resided not too far from my stomping grounds back then, a manufacturer that ironically currently seems to be enjoying unprecedent success (or so it seems given the accolades owners of his new speaker designs heap upon the various models available from his current company), spite of the sonic thumbprint "problem" (at first I couldn't quite identify what aurally bothered me until I went back to listen to other loudspeakers; the differences were amazingly revealing to say the least!).

Anyway, the HF unit he utilized on that particular design(the ubiquitous D-21 tweeter from Dynaudio) was indeed "sweet" sounding, without inducing listener's fatigue, which is as it should be.
Bass performance was sort of cameleon-like...oh, well; better leave this area alone for the time being!
I could have forgiven everything else that pair of speakers did wrong had the midband frequency range performed accurately, but, no...their wet noodle-like performance (lack of ballsy transient attack) eventually drove me up the wall!

I knew the midrange drivers used (cones made out of some sort of carbon/fiberglass concoction) were not up to par and said so to the designer. He was sort of indignant hearing my pointed criticisms (as well as other owners of said speaker model!), and actually offered me to swap the speakers for something else (back then I was running the audio society, so he was careful not to arouse my anger, if you know what I mean). I politely declined for very specific, personal reasons and kept 'em a while longer.
I eventually sold them to a loyal follower of that speaker manufacturer (mean spirited from my part? Nope...the guy who bought them stopped short of begging me to sell them to him so I obliged, thus helping me to recoup part of my initial expenditure in the process).
My next pair of "full range" transducers "got" the midrange (among other important areas) right, so I bought them (a prototype model which I got straight from another local speaker manufacturer :D )...three times cheaper then the ones I sold to boot! They're my "big" HT system's main L&R transducers.

Anyhow, the moral of this little tirade is: get the midrange correct (as well as the HF region!) and everything else will fall into place (sort of!)...

-THTS

"...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."
 

Craig Chase

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Frank, It is funny you mention midrange. I was a sound man for bands of all sorts for 12 years, plus, of course, a 27 year history in audio. When setting the sound for a band, one major challenge was to get the mids configured in an empty hall so they sounded right with 300-3000 people in it.

So yes, you are absolutely correct that the mids are the essential. My Klipschorns were SO good at the mids. When auditioning speakers in the past year, I was quite disappointed at the "mechanical" sound of so many high end speaker... Legacy Focus, VMPS RM-40, 801 Nautulis... etc...

Regarding your playing of drums... When handling sound, I used to love venues small enough that we did not have to "mic" the drums, because getting the snare right WAS so difficult through our EV system. But when we did need to run the drums through the larger system, THEY were the first thing I calibrated, then everything else around them.

In today's listening, I will be playing Herb Pomeroy's SACD live... 73 minutes of drums, sax, trumpet, trombone, cello, and some of the best natural soundstaging I have EVER heard on a disc. Then Tony Bennett's "Unplugged" SACD...more of the same with Tony, KD Lang, Elvis Costello ....

Frank... you also have PM
 

Mark LS

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I'm as much in the dark as you are, Kevin. TAI has sponsored items at AR for lengths of time and we've even discussed their reviving the mammoth Swan library of material apparently posted there during the past few years, but evidently it's not yet happened.

There were rumors that there were issues with the previous campaign, but I emphasize that they are just rumors; I do not know precisely what went on there.

++++++++++++++++++++++

Good Morning Jon...

I have to admit to not actually knowing the reason(s) why for this as well... I've not had any issues with AR, so I'm not exactly sure as to "why" either...

In any event... life has gone on... :)

Hoping all is well out there...

All the best... and hello to "E" also...

mls
 

Eric:F

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hi craig,
i've been busy this week and am just catching up on this thread. it looks like you're trying to grade small floorstanders available via the net for about 1k a pair.
the speaker i would like to see in the mix is the efe t22.
a recent thread at avs gave glowing reviews and there are nothing except perfect scores on audioreview.
they run about $1100/pair. any chance on including them?
i enjoy your banter and objectivity. after your sub shootout i couldn't make up my mind and got both the pb2+(living room) and the vft 3 mk2(family room).
best,
eric
 

Craig Chase

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Eric... Thanks for the kind words. You and I did the same thing... got both VTF-3's AND PB2+ ... Though you are likely sensible and stopped there...:)

I would be happy to run the EFE's in the test. Do you have a contact there ? Perhaps you could drop him a line and have him take a peek at this thread, and see if there is any interest... I did talk to (the owner?) someone about 4 months ago, and he was a very nice gentleman, but was not yet wanting a review done. If memory serves, He had just moved from California to Arizona ?
 

Kevin_Breeze

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Another very nice write up Craig! I enjoyed reading it and I see you swithced the grading system too :)

I just wanted to verify, right now the only speakers you are testing are the Onix RS550 and the Ascend CBM-340's correct?
 

Craig Chase

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Good morning Kevin... Yes, they two speakers being tested as systems are:

1. A pair of Ascend 340's with the matching bases plus the Hsu STF-1 8 inch (sub)woofer for $938 plus $62 shipping.

2. A pair of Onix Rocket 550 Mark II's for $999 plus shipping.

Pending speakers yet to arrive are the Axiom M-80's, $1100 including shipping and the Swan 6.1's and perhaps some (new?) speakers from The Audio Insider....
 

CurtisSC

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Craig,

I think the issue with the EFE's will be the fact that they do not offer a 30 day trial period. You buy them, you keep them. Hopefully you can work your magic and get a loaner pair.
 

Craig Chase

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Curtis, thanks for the info on the Efe's ... They also do not have a web site. They may be great speakers, but without a trial period, I would not review them. I don't mind someone risking $70 shipping based on a review... but not $1000 ... I hope that makes sense..

Today's listening, as promised, was the Sacd combo of Herb Pomeroy, which is distributed by Red Rose Music... and Tony Bennett's "Unplugged" ...

I am pretty certain that today's order was unchanged from yesterday's. This was also a LOT of listening... about 5 hour's worth.... how did we do?

Speaker B: As with the Rock Sessions, better than one would expect for $1000. Between these discs, you get two male vocals (Bennett and Elvis Costello) and female (KD Lang) ... You also get drums, brushes on cymbals, lots of brass, Bass Cello, and enthusiastic audiences.

With "B" there was a very good presentation of the music, the Duet with Lang was very articulate, and Bennett's voice came through with all the enthusiasm for which he is known.

The soundstaging and imaging was also better than one usually gets for this type of money. The Pomeroy Sacd is a GREAT soundstage test, and with "B", you get a pretty good slice of the soundstage that is present. When properly done, you will hear the brass section to the right, the Bass Cello to the left, and drums back left. "B" managed all that quite well.

On The Bennett SACD, the Bass Cello is omnipresent, and here again the "B" system was very good. When a speaker system is doing this bass "right", it is hard not to smile, and if you are really relaxed, toes will be tapping. It was pretty good, but not into toe tapping territory.

All in all, good performance was turned in. The only thing that made it a let down was the performance of "A" ...

Speaker "A" ... Today, "A" really was a shining star. As I mentioned earlier, I am pretty sure this is the same as "A" was last night... Starting with the Pomeroy SACD, Where you could make out the Brass section being to the right on "B", you could more easily hear each different brass, trumpet, Sax, Trombone... and the sax was outside the right wall of the room. The bass cello on Pomeroy is not as clear as it is on the Bennett SACD (The Bennett disc seems to be multi-microphoned, where the Pomeroy seems to be a single microphone near the front row) ... and where speaker "B" missed a lot of the bass, "A" got it all.

When Lang and Bennett were singing together, you could "see" them standing close to each other, but definitely in seperate spaces... remarkable.

In other areas, you could also "see" Mr. Bennett walking around the stage, and get a nice view of how much fun he has entertaining everyone in the audience.

And when Tony exhorts the drummer to get the "Sinatra" brush beat going on the drums... you could clearly hear each brush stroke on "A", where "B" missed the softer strokes.

In fact, where "B" was mostly bested by "A" was in the size of the soundstage/accuracy of imaging, and in the attention to detail. "B" could be said to have shortcomings due to omission, not comission... "B" does not do much wrong, it just misses a few things. It was also clearly bested by "A" in reproduction of that Bass Cello. On the Bennett SACD, I did find myself tapping the toes a lot...

The final difference I will mention is the audience involvement in both... applause from "A" sounded like applause, where "B" had a bit of sounding like hard raining. It was just not as clear on "B" as "A".

Three days of listening, and I am getting anxious to find which speaker is which...

Today's score...?

"A" : 100 points
"B" : 91 points
 

Kevin_Breeze

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yeah so are we! Another great write up. I gotta hand it to you...are you sitting there blindfolded for 5 hours? It would be hard for me to do that for that long, lol.

By the way, I am just curious have you ever done any testing on these ultra-cheap Fluance speakers like the SV-10 that sells on ebay for $299?? I am just curious how they would sound. Its amazing they look good and seem to be made well and they are even bi-ampable. Just can't imagine how they can sell them for so little and can't imagine how they would sound very good at that price...
 

Craig Chase

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Kevin, not blindfolded... but our basement room is 43 feet long... and is dark while I am listening... I love it... totally peaceful. The system is along the far wall, 30+ feet from the stairs going down.

As for Fluance, They seem to be decent for the $$$$ ... but did not sem interested in this type of review... they do seem to be driven by short customer reviews on their site...
 

Jimmy Harmon

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Well, I think I have a pretty good idea. :) I'm pretty sure that the Hsu 8" powered (sub)woofer will go lower than the 550's 6 1/2" main drivers. Good stuff though, Craig. Keep it coming.

The one thing I appreciate you doing, and maybe you can do so even more in your final analysis, is distinguishing between a comparision of each setup's lowest bass response and the rest of the speakers' qualities. I say this not because I think there's anything unfair about comparing two similarly priced setups (especially when you include the price of the stands for the 340's), but because most 550 owners will use a subwoofer with them and some 340 owners either may not use a sub or will use a different subwoofer than the Hsu. In other words, I'm more interested in hearing the differences between the 550's and 340's than the 550's and the Hsu sub. However, if my assumption is correct it sounds like the transition between the 340's and Hsu sub is excellent.

My 550's won't be leaving my living room anytime soon, but if the Ascends are the winner, I might have to grab a pair of those too sometime down the road.

One other thing, Craig. Not a criticism, but one foot from the side wall seems kind of close. My closest speaker is two feet and I wish I had another foot or so of clearance. Is that where you typically setup your speakers?

Thanks again for the review.
 

Craig Chase

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Jimmy... After the blind testing is done, I will do even more than what you asked for... How would a battery of measurements sound ? We can do full frequency sweeps of in room responses of any configuration (with and without subs)... plus use ETF measurements which take the room effect out of the equation... this is good for 200 Hz and up... but is still informative.

As for placement... Both speakers are likely compromised a bit... take a 14 foot wide room, put the 550's each one foot from the wall... now the inside of each speaker is almost 2 feet in... which means, giving a foot for the inside speakers, and suddenly the inside speakers are 8 feet apart... actually, the Ascends are about 9 feet apart... and about 8 inches from Rockets...

Anyway... once the blind results are done, we will look at all sorts of questions and ideas about performance.
 

Kevin_Breeze

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Yeah it seems pretty obvious that the winning combo is the Ascends w/ the HSU b/c of how it was stated the bass was lower as Jimmy pointed out. It does seem a little unfair since one has a sub, but than you remember, hey both setups cost the same amount of money so its not unfair at all, and it seems the 340's are outperforming the rockets in the mids and highs too. (assuming they are the ones that keep winning). Man what a shocker it would be if it turns out the Rockets were the actual winning setup, lol.
 

Craig Chase

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For today's test... Back to Back Pink Floyd Fest... Using Roger Water's "In The Flesh" SACD ... Another Disc that has everything. Plus the 1812 Overture. This will total another 6 hours of listening... giving us about 10 hours on each speaker.

So... The choice goes out to you guys. I have to play in a charity golf tourney on Monday, and will be back at it Tuesday. Would you guys like to wrap up the blind tests Tuesday? Or go to the weekend? This is democracy in action..

Plan A - Go to the weekend
Plan B - Wrap it up Tuesday

Either way, results will be discussed, TrueRTA and ETF graphs posted, all that good stuff.

Speaking of graphs, when I post one, it is in raw form. For in room sweeps, I use the Stryke audio Disc and 1/3 octave widths. Anything more and the graph has "holes" in it. But unlike magazines, there is no smoothing of the graph to keep the manufacturer happy. Most speaker companies cringe when they see what the response curve looks like in room... typically it is something like +/- 10 dB ...
 

Craig Chase

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I was reviewing the text of this review this morning, and see I missed a couple of points...

1. Curtis, you are quite correct, the speaker market is quite a bit more diverse than is the subwoofer market. Even among manufacturers it occurs,for example, Axiom makes its own subwoofers, but often recommends that we Yanks buy SVS or Hsu Vs. their own....

2. Kevin, You mentioned a while back that I was scoring the $1000 speakers above the Legacy/VMPS/B&W ...etc... $7000 to $12,000 speakers. Actually, It was the $4500 Ref 3's that I preferred to those, not the Ascend package or Rockets... And when you consider at about 1/2 the price of a B&M speaker is dealer mark up (nothing wrong with that, by the way... they have HUGE expenses keeping inventory, paying rent, having a sales staff... etc...) ... the manufacturer really only gets the other 1/2... I hope that clears things up a bit.

Finally... This is my first attempt at really working on Home Theater Forum. I am enjoying the heck out of it !

All the knowledgible guys are here, minus the trolls... :emoji_thumbsup:
 

Andy Nanton

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Craig,

If you feel that by Tuesday you could make a coherent conclusion, I say go ahead and wrap it up.

So, Plan B.

Based on differences in acoustics, source, power, and preference more detailed observations may overkill.

Anyway, just this guy's opinion. Thanks very much for setting this up, the extra mile of getting someone to switch speakers around significantly reduces a non-trivial source of bias.

Thanks again,
Andy
 

Craig Chase

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Andy, Very well said. Once the blind portion is done, and we get into measurements, we will look at frequency response, sensitivity ( run a one watt signal a 1000 hz, and post the output at one meter ) ... a lot of areas to cover. For example, if one is much more efficient than the other, that would have a pretty large impact on the decision for someone using a lower powered receiver.
 
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