Small floor standing speaker shootout... (1 Viewer)

[DavidCooper]

Sounds like the Swan 5.2's would be a good one for this.

 

[Craig Chase]

They might just be... Jon Lane indicated he has a couple of ideas...

 

[Kevin_Breeze]

Craig

Looking forward to seeing the results of this one. Just my opinion but I say definitely incorpate the Ascends w/sub in the shootout, how could it be unfair for the others when the others cost more? Plus I am curious how sub/sattelite type setups compare to floorstanders of the same price range, in general.

 

[Craig Chase]

Thanks Kevin... We are off on vacation until Sunday, August 8 ... Hopefully I can find this thread when we return !

 

[steve nn]

Plus I am curious how sub/sattelite type setups compare to floorstanders of the same price range, in general.
__________________________________________________ ______

Very good point. Although it does add a little twist to the process. Wouldn't mind seeing the criteria a little more restrictive but that would be a different Thread. Taking the above statement into account and considering Craigs perimeters, it should be quit interesting imo.

Leave it to us and we'll tell you what to do Craig and have a great vacation.

 

[Chris Quinn]

Craig has already done this with Axiom M22, Rocket ELTs, and Ascend 170s.

 

[Eric:F]

hi chris,
where are the results of bookshelf shootout you mentioned?

 

[Chris Quinn]

Here and Here.

 

[Craig Chase]

The Ascend package of a pair of 340's, the Hsu STF-1 and the stands for the 340's are here, as is a pair of Rocket 550 Mark II's.

Tonight, I will start listening to these two in an A/B set up, after careful calibration, of course.

As for any other speakers ? Swan may have something in September, and I will try then.

Axiom seemed a bit put off that I was using a small subwoofer with the Ascends, even though the M-80's were would STILL have more driver area, larger overall interior volume, and would cost $100 more delivered than the Ascend package.

They are still welcome, but I have not had any correspondence with Axiom for two weeks... hopefully they will still attend.

As for my decision to use the STF-1 ... It is rated down to 32 Hz, and is not a SUBwoofer in the sense of the word that it will bring the last octave of bass, without the STF-1, the Ascends are good to about 55 Hz, and are only $690 delivered. THAT seems to me to be less fair than the way on which I had settled.

Plus, Rocket was quite confident in the 550 Mark II being used sans subwoofer.

OK... Tonight, I will post listening results of "A" and "B". For music, we will be using Nora Jones and Steely Dan.

This will also be done like a golf "matchplay" ... should one speaker be a clear winner, and Axiom, Swan, or another company submit an offering... the winner will compete against the new entry.

ALSO ... Each speaker is given a firm 50 hour burn in... before testing starts. That seemed a good compromise between the "break-in vs. no break in" groups.

And all listening will be blind, I will have no idea which speaker is which until after all listening tests are done.

FINALLY ... Questions are welcome, I only ask that they be kept polite and friendly. Fair enough ?

 

[JohnDG]

A thought: it might be nice to get a couple of sets that are available in local stores and are fairly popular: Paradigm? Klipse? NHT? etc.

The idea is to differentiate the internet sales speakers which most people do not have access to for a listen, with B&M sales speakers which most people can walk into a local store and have a listen for a reference point.

This would be for contrast, not rating. And... I would think one would select store speakers that are approximately 30%? 50%? more expensive to get a comparable product (distribution overhead).

jdg

 

[CurtisSC]

Hey Craig,

I only wish I was there to listen with you. From what I have been told, I would like the RS550.

Are you actually beginning comparison tonight, or break-in?

Don't have too much fun.

 

[Craig Chase]

John, I am also doing some stops in some B&M stores to check out their wares. To date I have listened to the Totem Hawk ($2500/pair US), Paradigm 100 V.3 (quoted $1800 as my "best price"), Energy C-9 quoted $1100 US, and will be looking for more. I realize this is not an A/B testin my home, but thus far, none of the stores I have visited have been interested in placing speakers in such a test.

I understand why they have not wanted to participate, these stores pretty much ignore the internet companies, plus they could get into trouble with the "home office" for being involved in a non factory approved test...

I could buy a pair under a 30 day return, but that would be pretty dishonest... So I will do my best, especially in light of the fact that I will be in several cities in the next 2 weeks, to listen to as many as possible. The Energy C-9's were terrible, by the way. I am hesitant to beat up on a speaker, and if you own them, please take no offense, but they don't come close to what I heard with the Ascend 170's and STF-1 subwoofer. The Totems fared better, though still lacking in punch, the Paradigms we quite good, but were also very mechanical sounding. They did not have the ability to be as msical as I have become accustomed to with speakers like the Ref 3's here.

Curtis, I think you would love the set up... the two sets of speakers have been burning in for over 50 hours now, and I have the house to myself until Sunday night... and it is 65 degrees and rainy here.... some August dog days...

 

[CurtisSC]

So no golf I guess, although you might have had enough over your vacation. I am playing La Costa in two weeks.

You are actually the second person in two weeks that has told me directly or indirectly that same comment on the Paradigms.

 

[Craig Chase]

Tonight, as promised, we started the blind listening tests. The system being used is a McIntosh MA-6900 200 WPC Integrated Amp and a modified (UnderWood Wally) Denon 2900 Universal Player. We did make a change in music to Steely Dan's "2 Against Nature (2AN)" DVD/A and Sarah McLachlan's "Solace" CD.

For the set up, the Rocket 550's are about one foot away from the wall, both backs and sides. The Ascend 340's are just inside the 550's. This means the 550's are 12 feet apart, and the 340's are 10 feet apart. I am 11 feet from the speakers, and each is toed in a bit.

The STF-1 has the deepest response when corner loaded, so it is in the corner behind the speakers.

The results:

Speaker System "A" : Starting with Steely Dan, with the lows, it was clear this speaker had quality bass, my ears tell me "A" was good to the low 30's in bass extension. This disc has bass to the mid teens, as our B4+ has shown many times. "A" was missing that last octave completely, but what bass it did do was articulate, tuneful, and tight. The song "What a Shame about me" has some VERY powerful bass notes, and "A" was good, but again, not into the last octave.

On Solace's "Backdoor Man", it was more of the same. It has some outstanding deep bass in the beginning (apparently, when this disc was mastered, twin Hartley 24 inch drivers were used with the monitors), this bass is combined with the kick drum... very difficult and powerful down to 22 Hz. "A" was good in the low 30 Hz and up range again.

In the mids and highs, "A" was a LOT better than one would expect for the money. Guitar from "Solace" and Sax from "2AN" were presented with only a small amount of "nasal" quality. Sarah's voice was quite clear and seductive, and there is some upper bass playing that is almost grungelike, and this came through with a lot of punch.

Soundstage was quite deep, and wide as the room... with a believable presentation. More on soundstaging as the tests continue.

Dynamics were quite good, "A" could easily hit 100 dB peaks in our large room before sounding conjested. This room is 43 x 14 feet, so that is no small feat.

Speaker "B" : Starting again in the Bass, Take everything from Speaker "A" and drop the response to the low 20's. The bass quality is as good as the "A" speakers, but the depth and power are better. While they were not B4+ in power, "B" gave the impression of being a truly full range system, lacking only the last 1/3 octave, rather than the full octave. For example, the "grungelike" bass form Solace was presented by "B" with a foundation lacking in "A". It WAS playing bass you could feel as well as hear. When you consider these systems are $1000, that is remarkable.

Mids and highs were quite similar between the two systems. "B" was excellent on guitar, sax, drums... all of it. Compared to "A" it was a bit more open and relaxed, though not quite as focused. "B" was an imaging and soundstaging champ, They gave a lot more of a feeling of the musicians being across the room in front of you to a great degree than did "A"

Dynamics in "B" were astounding. I listened for about 30 seconds at 105 dB from the listening position with little or no congestion at all. "B" is definitely shaping up to be a possible choice for a larger room.

The results for the first round ?

On a 0-100 scale, 100 being the perfect speaker:

"A" gets 94 points
"B" gets 100 points

EDIT - I changed the previous "75" for "A" to 94 and the "80" for "B" to 100 for consistency with the rest of the listening tests.

more tomorrow.... questions and comments welcome

 

[David_D]

Is this the original 550 or the Mk II?

Also - since you're using a match play format, are there going to be gimmes?

Curtis - I've played La Costa. Great course, but I've had more fun elsewhere. Try La Purisima (in Lompoc) sometime.

 

[Craig Chase]

It is the Mark II ... and while there won't be any gimmies... a 19th hole seems like a good idea...

And our home course is the same one at which the US Women's Amateur is being played. It is fun to see golfers of this calibre on the same course we play.

These women sure can play well... wow !

 

[CurtisSC]

At La Costa, I am expecting to see a lot of "beach".

The fun has begun! Nice stuff Craig.

 

[Craig Chase]

Curtis, Have you noticed that the "regular" speaker shootouts don't garner any where near the interest as does a subwoofer shootout?

I did another hour's worth of listening last night to the Roger Water's SACD "In the Flesh". It has become a favorite of mine, especially at LOWER volumes and trying to listen through to the effects...

These two systems are excellent values. I know most people have not heard Onix Ref 3's, which I currently own, so a bit of history on them.

In April this year, after a year's worth of research, and a lot of auditioning of the following: Legacy Focus ($6800), VMPS RM-40 with TRT caps ($5800), B&W 801 Nautilus ($12,000), PSB S-8 ($6000), Magnepan 3.6R ($4375), I tried a pair of Onix Ref 3's with the Proviso that if I did not like them, they went back.

The Ref 3's retail for $4500 for the pair, which was decent pricing, but they real deal is with system prices companies like AV123, Swan, and to a lesser extent, Ascend, give buyers.

Since this is not a review of the Ref 3's, but rather to give people reading this review more of a barometer of what I am comparing these speakers to, the Ref 3's gave the clarity of the Magnepans with the power of the Legacies, though the Legacies did go a bit deeper in the bass....

They also seemed to have blown everyone away at AV123's recent show in Colorado, including Steve Stone from Stereophile, and several VERY cynical audiophiles who have VERY high end systems... You could say I have gotten spoiled by some GREAT speakers, and the $1000 per pair systems here are making me almost wince with how good they are in comparison to the Ref 3's (which beat all those others listed above) ...

Back to the review... Both speaker systems here are making sounds MUCH better than they should for this kind of money. Speaker "B" continues to hold the edge in deep bass and sound stage. And even at low volumes, it seems so handle dynamic swings better.

It is Friday morning here, and I am off to work... more tonight. The scores posted last night still stay....

 

[Richard_M]

Craig…

Speaking purely for myself, I rarely listen to 2 channel recordings these days as I much more prefer the higher definition multichannel recordings, I would also guess that a fair majority of forum readers are more into the HT & multichannel as well hence the more interest in the performance of subs.

Again speaking purely for myself, speakers tend to be influenced more by room acoustics, amplification, source devices & material, making them sound different with the changing of say a DVD/CD player, where the differences in changing this device with a sub is less noticeable.

The other factor in all this is my ability to hear the full spectrum, for instance in my case I have large attenuation in the middle freq’s, there by if a speaker has more emphasis on the upper freq’s I find them aggravating and fatiguing, so I opt for a speaker with more emphasis on the mid freq’s, this is in room response I am talking about here.

I do enjoy reading your reviews, I just wanted to put my side across as the reason why I don’t appear to have much interest or input in the speaker shootouts, so don’t feel despondent, although I can’t help with any constructive feedback, I do keep reading your posts.

Keep up the good work.

 

[CurtisSC]

IMO, the reason for this is the number of subwoofer manufacturers that are well represented on the internet, vs the number of speaker manufacturers.

Take a cross section of 10 owners in this forum, and they collectively may own subwoofers from 3-4 manufacturers. Those same 10 may own speakers from 8-9 manufacturers. So with speakers, brand loyalty is more spread out.

My 2 cents.