Sign the HD-DVD Petition, Support 1080p, Support Blu-Ray, Your Comments Will Be Heard

Discussion in 'DVD' started by ChrisA, Aug 25, 2003.

  1. ChrisA

    ChrisA Second Unit

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    Please continue to sign the HD-DVD petition:

    http://www.petitiononline.com/cehddvd/

    The HD-DVD petition will be re-printed and discussed (for a second time) in the next issue of Widescreen Review.

    Sony is talking with studios for supporting release of 1080p pre-recorded media. The article from Sept Widescreen Review with Sony's Blu-Ray Disc Group, Senior Vice President of the Blu Ray Disc Division, Michael Fidler is around 6 pages long and very revealing. "Sony is extremely excited about a related development in new display technology called SXRD. With SXRD we can finally offer displays that have the ability to truly deliver full 1920 x 1080 resolution. This is a very important part of the equation ..." "I would agree [that Blu-Ray discs should support prerecorded 1080p studio releases]. That is being defined as we speak. That is part of our ongoing conversations."

    In any case, Blu-Ray players are going to be similar to DVD players in that they will come in a variety of flavors, just as DVD players do now: Transports, integrated with HDTV tuners, Integrated with scalers, Output a variety of resolutions, it is up to the manufacturer, just as it is now with DVD. The vast majority if not all Blu Ray players will simply play current DVD's and use an internal scaler to match whatever your output resolution you select. There are no inherent limitations with Blu Ray players, and most manufacturers of Blu-Ray BD players will likely support not only MPEG-2, but perhaps WM9/Corona, and possibly MPEG-4. It depends on how the politics turn-out.

    As quoted from The Digital Bits:

     
  2. Brian-W

    Brian-W Screenwriter

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  3. ChrisA

    ChrisA Second Unit

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  4. Sean Bryan

    Sean Bryan Sean Bryan

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  5. ChrisA

    ChrisA Second Unit

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    Not to mention with Blu Ray:

    T2 Extreme running WM9 at 1080p between 20-30 Mbit/sec
    with enough room for a primary audio track running somewhere around 5 Mbit/sec or so...

    Try doing that with any other propsal other than Blu Ray.

    Try having music videos with full blown HD-video AND 24/96 MLP DVD-Audio... you can't with other proposals.

    As mentioned in the first post: Blu Ray players are going to support not only MPEG-2, but advanced forms of MPEG-2, and there is no reason manufacturers cannot produce Blu Ray players that play 1080p WM9 files. Additionally, an H.264 decoder can "easily" decode MPEG-2, advanced MPEG-2 and Mpeg-4. Further, Sony is only one of TEN commited manufaturers in the Blu Ray group.

    The point is to voice your opinion on how to best use Blu Ray's bandwidth and storage... that is what the petition is also useful for!
    I'd also love to see a discrete tatcile trandsucer channel. It would be easy to implement and has negligible bandwidth...and should run up to around 500 Hz, with only information that is supposed to produce tactile and in the proper levels... see my sig file for more details.
     
  6. Brian-W

    Brian-W Screenwriter

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  7. ChrisA

    ChrisA Second Unit

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    Brian,

    We have laid out several reasons why having more bandwidth and storage is better, and you, for some reason aren't reading the entirety of what is written, and why Blu Ray type of bandwidth and storage is essentail. Further. Warner's plan is about using MPEG-4 or any advanced codec. Blu-Ray does NOT EXCLUDE ANY ADVANCED CODEC, it simply STATES IT WILL INCLUDE MPEG-2 for compatability. Please re-read my statements in entirety and grab the whole picture being presented. I would love to see Corona/WM9 be an option on Blu Ray players and there is absolutely no reason this cannot be so! In fact I encourage people to add their comments to the petition requesting support of Corona/WM9, or any advanced video compression algorithm for that matter.

    You insult my intelligence with your "if the number is higher, it must be better" Please re-read any comments in entirety.

    Thanks,

    Chris

     
  8. Brian-W

    Brian-W Screenwriter

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  9. ChrisA

    ChrisA Second Unit

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    10-15 Mbit/sec for video is not in the range of red laser, although AOD is within that range. 7-9 Mbit/sec is not the same as 10-15. Red laser technology cannot deliver more than 7-9 Mbit/sec for video, although there is a technology called Pixonics pHD which may play a role... I need to re-read about Pixonics.

    Have you compare 1080p24 running at 7-9 vs. 25-30 Mbit/sec using any compression algorithm, even Corona, and still tell me there is no significant differnce? I'm not talking 15 as in 10-15 Mbit/sec you stated.

    As far as audio is concerned, Blu Ray is not only for movies, it is for audio, and finally, it is for music videos. If you care to take audio "out of the equation" that is approximately half of the improvement expected out of going from DVD to HD-DVD. We don't have endless DD vs DTS wars for no reason. It is time to provide one high quality soundtrack and use AC3 for backward compatabilty, foreign languages, accessory tracks, and commentary.

    I'm 100% in favor of 1080p, Corona video compression, Blu-Ray, 4+ Mbit sec DTS, or *any* solution that significantly improves upon DD and DTS. DTS scalability is a huge plus for certain. I'm by no means a DTS fan, and would welcome any significant advancement for movies.

    Blu Ray is an obvious choice for music videos and multimedia in general... anything requiring both Hi-def video and DVD-audio music...
     
  10. Bill Burns

    Bill Burns Supporting Actor

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    The other participants in this thread have a familiarity with HD that far eclipses what I've picked up over the last couple of years of reading about it, so here's a very simple question that may have been asked and answered elsewhere, but I just haven't found that answer yet, and so I'll ask it here in the hopes someone knows:

    As the anamorphic spec of DVD allows for in-player downconversion to accommodate those sets incapable of displaying the higher resolution anamorphic signal for widescreen releases so encoded, has there been any discussion (or decision) of the possibility of allowing Blu-Ray or any other HD-DVD spec to downconvert HD signals for SD displays? The results might prove somewhat inferior to native SD-DVD, perhaps in a fashion not dissimilar to the somewhat inferior look of a downconverted anamorphic SD-DVD signal when held against a native 4X3 letterbox transfer (something I never particularly found myself, but I read of it often enough to take it as a given). The film-to-tape process of SD-DVDs enjoys an improved end result when sourced from high definition tape and downconverted prior to encoding, so there may be gains at that -- I'm not at all familiar with the technology behind such a suggestion for HD-DVD, and thus couldn't say.

    But specifically: has any consideration been given to in-player downconversion solutions for those who do not yet own HD displays? I know that the move from laser to DVD was made easier for me (and I was eager to jump on board when those first players hit in March of '97) by DVD's ability to downconvert anamorphic in-player, and I was thereby collecting anamorphic DVDs for several years before upgrading to an anamorphic (SD) display in 2000. If HD-DVD can downconvert to SD, buying both HD players and discs will be a no-brainer for the entire home video market, which can then upgrade their displays accordingly as budgets allow. If a display upgrade must come first (if no in-player downconversion is possible), the market for SD-DVD will probably co-exist with HD-DVD for rather a long time (assuming Blu-Ray hits in late 2005, as currently suggested) when considered alongside the history of laser's coexistence with DVD -- which was virtually non-existent. Laser died very quickly when DVD rolled around (despite what I can only qualify as rather bizarre claims found in one or two otherwise reputable sources that analogue laserdisc images looked better than compressed digital DVD images, seemingly failing to take into account the sophistication of the MPEG-2 spec and the quality that could be achieved with a clean source and efficient encoding; uncompressed sound is another matter, of course, but in-player noise-processed Academy Ratio or Silent Aperture B&W is the closest I've ever seen laser and DVD appear, and DVD will still best laser in this regard when proper QC is observed), in part because the player was all you needed -- the same set that displayed VHS and laser could now offer up DVD, and DVD offered so much, aside from resolution gains, that those earlier formats did not.

    Just a thought (which somewhat echoes a Bill Hunt editorial of a while ago, though he wasn't discussing in-player downconversion). Any info is much appreciated. I'm sure I'll buy a HD-DVD player and begin buying discs shortly after release if downconversion is an option; if not, the money for an HD display of as reliable and future proof a quality as possible will have to come first, which will allow SD-DVD a much longer life on my shelves. The issue of SD-DVD playback has often been addressed, but I just can't seem to find anything on in-player HD-DVD downcoversion to an SD signal (perhaps because it isn't feasible? I hope it is). Thanks again.
     
  11. DaViD Boulet

    DaViD Boulet Lead Actor

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  12. Bill Burns

    Bill Burns Supporting Actor

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    Excellent, Dave! Thanks so much for the news -- my only persistent concern about early adoption is no more.
     
  13. Alistair_M

    Alistair_M Second Unit

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    "WM9 would need to be part of the BluRay specification and have universal support for it to be a viable option for content providers. Hopefully this will indeed be the case!"

    WM9 is a Microsoft product
    BluRay is a Sony product

    IF you want to learn about microsoft's long terms plans for entertainment systems - have a read of this book

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...118553-7870540

    Microsoft and Sony are sworn enemies - if the console wars are anything to go by. So you can bet your last pound/dollar that Sony does not want WM9 to suceed at all and would never support it.

    The next generation is not only about high def - but the battle over control of the living room entertainment centres which means - dvd, high def, music, harddisk recording, gaming and interactive services. Both Sony and Microsoft are as we speak developing mutually exclusive solutions to the above.
     
  14. Richard Paul

    Richard Paul Stunt Coordinator

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    I personally would like Corona to be used by Blu-ray but I agree with Alistair that it is highly unlikely. It's not just the console wars so much as the fact that both companies are power freaks and Sony would fight tooth and nail against a Microsoft based video codec. There is a chance that the other companies could show the advantages of using the Corona codec to Sony. There is also the chance that we will discover a cure for aging tomorow which would be equally probable. The cheapest, dumbest, and unfortunately most likely video codec for pre-recorded content on Blu-ray would be MPEG-2. Since they have to include MPEG-2 for recordability it would be cheap and easy for the Blu-ray Founders to just use that for pre-recorded video. I hope that I am mistaken, yet every indication from the Blu-ray Founders point's at pre-recorded Blu-ray using MPEG-2.
     
  15. ChrisA

    ChrisA Second Unit

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    The Blu Ray group is very broad... Sony is only one of 10 in the group currently... What we really care about is using the best video compression algorithm... Corona is not the only wavelet typ of algorithm... The point of the petition is to voice support for Corona, or any other high quality algorithm. I'm just not convinced Corona will be excluded, and we as consumers should certainly ask for it. It's hard to believe Corona is the only high quality algrithm available. I'd like to know more about the H.264 decoder because it can "easily" decode MPEG-2, advanced MPEG-2 and Mpeg-4. Hmmmmm.

    It's also hard to believe Dobly Digital wouldn't get off their butt and develop a new scalable lossy compression algorithm for pre-recorded media/HD-DVD.

    Whatever the case... keep on top of the issues, and keep signing the petition. Almost at 2000 signatures! Look for the next issue of Widescreen Review to discuss these issues as well as the "Consumer Expectations of HD-DVD" petition [​IMG]

    Great Comments! Keep 'em coming!
     
  16. DaViD Boulet

    DaViD Boulet Lead Actor

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    Chris,

    I think what's important is that people don't sign the petition or try to make things better or push them in a better direction, but instead just argue here in a little threat at HTF and then complain some more when BluRay is actually released and it's not 100% to their liking.

    I mean, had I not personally started an email campaign back in the late 90's to protest T2 coming out 4x3 lbxed, Live Entertainment (Artisan) would have just released the first T2 DVD in 4x3 lbxed form as a "flipper" disc. As it happened, they responded to about 30 emails (may have been less) that we sent to them and released the world's first RSDL disc and remastered T2 to provide a new 16x9 transfer. I mean...what fun was that? We couldn't complain or aruge about how crappy it was at *all* after it actually came out!

    And when I called Doug Frisby at Image back when Dances with Wolves was going to be released on DVD in 4x3 lbxed and I emplored him to consider stalling the release just a little longer to make use of a new 16x9 transfer being prepared in Europe...he actually took my advice and delayed the disc to make it 16x9! Shucks!!! And I was just a "nobody" and just someone calling him out of the blue and I actually affected that DVD release in a serious way. Boy...had I but known then what I know now I should have just kept my mouth shut...then I could have complained about the 4x3 lbxed Dances with Wolves here in a thread at HTF instead! Bummer...hind sight is always 20/20.

    C'mon folks...keep arguing here and whatever you do, do NOT sign that petition (the one that will be printed in Widescreen review). Be sure to do NOTHING to try to voice your opinion about how things *ought to be*. Remember, it's always best to just stay silent, let the industry guess what you want, and then complain some more when they don't do what you wished they had!

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Todd Hochard

    Todd Hochard Cinematographer

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  18. DaViD Boulet

    DaViD Boulet Lead Actor

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  19. ChrisA

    ChrisA Second Unit

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    What is the resolution on that T2 Extreme?

    Also, what is the bandwidth and resolution of the AOD from Toshiba/NEC?

    We need to address the issue of the AOD with Corona/WM9 vs Blu-Ray if they only support MPEG-2

    Sony must be made aware that the consumers want MPEG-2 only for backward compatability and that an additional advanced video codec must be utilized.

    If I am not misunderstanding, is not the AOD supporting WM9/Corona?

    How and the heck does Pixonics fit into the scheme of things.. I think Pixonics is not a real player because all they allow is a way to cram more info into the existing DVD technology... which is not acceptable for all the reasons mentioned in the petition. Pixonics reminds me of HDCD [​IMG] Some tweak that never really amounted to much becaus the real deal was DVD-Audio and SACD... (HDCD, Pixonics... Bwaaa!!!)
     
  20. Richard Paul

    Richard Paul Stunt Coordinator

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    David, if you read a recent article in Widescreen Review an official from Sony said that the video codec for pre-recorded Blu-ray would most likely be MPEG-2. I was making a prediction which is the most likely outcome, yet if you could convince the Blu-ray Founders to use Corona then that would be great.

    For those wanting pre-recorded Blu-ray to use a wavelet based codec the only real game in town is Microsoft's Corona. The amount of time needed to make a codec would prevent the Blu-ray Founders from making one, so what is out now is what could be used. Corona is currently the best video codec and the Blu-ray Founders should use it for pre-recorded video. For that to happen though both the Blu-ray Founders must want it and Microsoft can't force any conditions on who can use it. In other words if Microsoft wants Corona to be used on pre-recorded Blu-ray it would have to allow it to be freely licensed, even on Linux [​IMG].
     

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