Should "Classic" Films be released on 4K/UHD? (1 Viewer)

[Robert Crawford]

Should "In the Heat of the Night" or any other "classic" movie be released on 4K/UHD? Is a proper Blu-ray release sufficient enough? Are studios and boutique companies releasing such movies onto 4K/UHD discs doing overkill for little improvement presentation-wise?

• Winner of 5 Oscars Including Best Picture, Best Actor (Steiger), Best Screenplay & Editing
• Oscar Nominee: Best Director

In the Heat of the Night (1967) Starring Sidney Poitier, Rod Steiger, Warren Oates, Lee Grant, Larry Gates, Scott Wilson & Anthony James – Shot by Haskell Wexler (Coming Home) – Edited by Hal Ashby (The Russians Are Coming! The Russians Are Coming!) – Music by Quincy Jones (The Getaway) – Produced by Walter Mirisch (The Pink Panther) – Screenplay by Stirling Silliphant (Charly) – Directed by Norman Jewison (The Thomas Crown Affair, Moonstruck).
2017 4K Restoration by Park Circus (50th Anniversary - TCM Festival)

 

[Robert Harris]

Sunday's Facebook Announcement:

Coming Soon on 4KUHD!

• Winner of 5 Oscars Including Best Picture, Best Actor (Steiger), Best Screenplay & Editing
• Oscar Nominee: Best Director

In the Heat of the Night (1967) Starring Sidney Poitier, Rod Steiger, Warren Oates, Lee Grant, Larry Gates, Scott Wilson & Anthony James – Shot by Haskell Wexler (Coming Home) – Edited by Hal Ashby (The Russians Are Coming! The Russians Are Coming!) – Music by Quincy Jones (The Getaway) – Produced by Walter Mirisch (The Pink Panther) – Screenplay by Stirling Silliphant (Charly) – Directed by Norman Jewison (The Thomas Crown Affair, Moonstruck).
2017 4K Restoration by Park Circus (50th Anniversary - TCM Festival)

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Be interesting to see what element was used as a source.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Be interesting to see what element was used as a source.

You would think that information would be available since they showed a 50th Anniversary print of it during the TCM Festival in 2017.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Be interesting to see what element was used as a source.

You would think that information would be available since they showed a 50th Anniversary print of it during the TCM Festival in 2017.

It's from same source used for the 4K restoration that was used for the 2019 Criterion Blu-ray.

 

[Robert Harris]

It's from same source used for the 4K restoration that was used for the 2019 Criterion Blu-ray.

If the same data from the 2019 screenings is accessed, and which apparently Criterion did additional cleanup for their Blu-ray, this could be a beautiful, albeit unnecessary 4k, unless It’s being run on a very large screen.

I continue to posit that films photographed 35/4, especially on older stock (here presumably 5251), have minimal gains in 4k for normal home theater exhibition, especially from a nominal seating distance.

That noted, if HDR can be minimized or avoided for Kino’s release, there should be no need to return to this title again.

 

[Robert Crawford]

If the same data from the 2019 screenings is accessed, and which apparently Criterion did additional cleanup for their Blu-ray, this could be a beautiful, albeit unnecessary 4k, unless It’s being run on a very large screen.

I continue to posit that films photographed 35/4, especially on older stock (here presumably 5251), have minimal gains in 4k for normal home theater exhibition, especially from a nominal seating distance.

That noted, if HDR can be minimized or avoided for Kino’s release, there should be no need to return to this title again.

Well, I'll respectfully disagree with you about an unnecessary 4K because sitting in my HT, I'm enjoying such 4K releases.

 

[Robert Harris]

Well, I'll respectfully disagree with you about an unnecessary 4K because sitting in my HT, I'm enjoying such 4K releases.

No disrespect taken. It’s an opinion.

Presuming that your 4k player is set to uprez 2k discs, I’ll be interested in your perception of how much more actual resolution you’ll be seeing in comparing the 2k Criterion to the 4k Kino - with uprez on and off - both from your normal seating distance.

I’ll be performing the same exercise.

I should also make the point that I’m not wholly against such 4k discs, which can yield a more cohesive image on large screens - much larger than my own. I’m referring to those who have projection of 15 - 20 feet wide, and above.

 

[haineshisway]

If the same data from the 2019 screenings is accessed, and which apparently Criterion did additional cleanup for their Blu-ray, this could be a beautiful, albeit unnecessary 4k, unless It’s being run on a very large screen.

I continue to posit that films photographed 35/4, especially on older stock (here presumably 5251), have minimal gains in 4k for normal home theater exhibition, especially from a nominal seating distance.

That noted, if HDR can be minimized or avoided for Kino’s release, there should be no need to return to this title again.

But they "think" they're seeing so much better resolution. And that's all it takes, isn't it? Cue Mr. Crawford in five, four, three, two...

 

[titch]

No disrespect taken. It’s an opinion.

Presuming that your 4k player is set to uprez 2k discs, I’ll be interested in your perception of how much more actual resolution you’ll be seeing in comparing the 2k Criterion to the 4k Kino - with uprez on and off - both from your normal seating distance.

I’ll be performing the same exercise.

I should also make the point that I’m not wholly against such 4k discs, which can yield a more cohesive image on large screens - much larger than my own. I’m referring to those who have projection of 15 - 20 feet wide, and above.

Maybe there is too much emphasis placed on the 4K resolution? There are other aspects of image quality such as data compression, colours and overall contrast, which are more important than resolution; the 4K UHD discs do a good job with these. My local cinema has a 2K resolution projector and the film quality from a DCP, projected in 2K onto a huge screen, is always superior, compared to a blu-ray I project at home.

 

[Robert Harris]

Maybe there is too much emphasis placed on the 4K resolution? There are other aspects of image quality such as data compression, colours and overall contrast, which are more important than resolution; the 4K UHD discs do a good job with these. My local cinema has a 2K resolution projector and the film quality from a DCP, projected in 2K onto a huge screen, is always superior, compared to a blu-ray I project at home.

Those areas affect all discs of all resolutions. My point is that more and more films are being re-released in 4k for minimal purpose.

Magnificent Blu-rays can be produced today from 4k image harvests, having been created as new preservation assets, for which 4k UHD discs don’t add a rational uptick in quality.

Blu-rays are just fine, especially for older films.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Those areas affect all discs of all resolutions. My point is that more and more films are being re-released in 4k for minimal purpose.

Magnificent Blu-rays can be produced today from 4k image harvests, having been created as new preservation assets, for which 4k UHD discs don’t add a rational uptick in quality.

Blu-rays are just fine, especially for older films.

That is a discussion for another thread as this one is to discuss Kino Announcements and not whether 4K disc releases are necessary or not. It's a valid topic for discussion in the proper thread.

Edit: I've moved some posts to a new thread so that now, we can discuss this valid topic in a proper thread.

 

[Robert Crawford]

But they "think" they're seeing so much better resolution. And that's all it takes, isn't it? Cue Mr. Crawford in five, four, three, two...

Pretty much so.

Those areas affect all discs of all resolutions. My point is that more and more films are being re-released in 4k for minimal purpose.

Magnificent Blu-rays can be produced today from 4k image harvests, having been created as new preservation assets, for which 4k UHD discs don’t add a rational uptick in quality.

Blu-rays are just fine, especially for older films.

You're right about the magnificent Blu-rays being fine, but I also see why these studios/companies are releasing them on 4K discs because it's another revenue stream that is badly needed by the industry and there seems to be a demand for them from people like myself.

 

[Matt Hough]

Nice that this topic has its own thread now. Thanks for creating it.

 

[titch]

There is an excellent in-depth and insightful article on resolution from film on displays in the latest Widescreen Review (a magazine, which counts Robert Harris as one of their friends). The author of the article has been designing video and data projectors for 35 years.

 

[Thomas T]

Why not? Whether they are an "improvement" over blu ray is irrelevant. Hell, I have tons of DVDs that I haven't and don't intend to upgrade to blu ray. But the term 4K to many collectors is like the sound of a bell to Pavlov's dog.

 

[Keith Cobby]

Depends on the film and source. I watched Vertigo on 4k disc again yesterday, and whatever your opinion of the film, in 4k it is a thing of beauty.

 

[benbess]

Just my two cents, but for an older film the key thing for a really good 4k release seems to be the survival of the original camera negative in at least okay shape.

Vertigo's large-format VistaVision negative survives, and so that movie looks spectacular in 4k. Wow. I'm hoping for more VistaVision movies in 4k.

Since the negative for Citizen Kane doesn't survive releasing that movie in 4k seems questionable.

The three-strip Technicolor negative for The Wizard of Oz survives, and that 4k has gotten good reviews, but I haven't bought it because I've watched that movie so much since I was a kid that I'm a bit watched out on it.

RAH recently gave a very positive review for the 4k release of the 1978 Invasion of the Body Snatchers, for which the OCN survives. Director Philip Kaufman even supervised the new release, which is also obviously a plus, and so I splurged and bought that one, which is arriving today.

Anyway, for me the answer is yes when it comes to 4k and old movies, as long as the original negative survives. When the OCN doesn't survive, as with Singin' in the Rain iirc, I think I'll pass.

 

[Robert Harris]

Should "In the Heat of the Night" or any other "classic" movie be released on 4K/UHD? Is a proper Blu-ray release sufficient enough? Are studios and boutique companies releasing such movies onto 4K/UHD discs doing overkill for little improvement presentation-wise?

• Winner of 5 Oscars Including Best Picture, Best Actor (Steiger), Best Screenplay & Editing
• Oscar Nominee: Best Director

In the Heat of the Night (1967) Starring Sidney Poitier, Rod Steiger, Warren Oates, Lee Grant, Larry Gates, Scott Wilson & Anthony James – Shot by Haskell Wexler (Coming Home) – Edited by Hal Ashby (The Russians Are Coming! The Russians Are Coming!) – Music by Quincy Jones (The Getaway) – Produced by Walter Mirisch (The Pink Panther) – Screenplay by Stirling Silliphant (Charly) – Directed by Norman Jewison (The Thomas Crown Affair, Moonstruck).
2017 4K Restoration by Park Circus (50th Anniversary - TCM Festival)

View attachment 123132

In many cases a 2k Blu-ray is enough.

Caveats:

1. Always at a nominal seating distance.

2. When new 4k elements are prepared as asset protection, any resultant home video releases should be so derived.

3. Don’t be hornswaggled by HDR.

Always compare a Blu-ray vs 4k BASED UPON THE SAME BASE DATA. Do NOT compare a new 4k vs a Blu-ray based upon something entirely different.

Follow these basic rules (let’s call them something like Robert’s Rules of Order) and in many cases, the 2k will be found virtually identical to the UHD, or so close as to make the 4k unnecessary.

 

[Worth]

I find the application of HDR on older films to be very much hit and miss. Sometimes it's an improvement and sometimes it looks worse.

 

[Robert Crawford]

I find the application of HDR on older films to be very much hit and miss. Sometimes it's an improvement and sometimes it looks worse.

Do you have examples of which older films that HDR is a miss? I can only think of "Frankenstein" that generated the loudest criticism.