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Seven Samurai and The Hidden Fortress any good? (1 Viewer)

Jeff Adams

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Over the past couple of days I have read a little bit about Akira Kurosawa and his 2 masterpiece movies Seven Samurai and Hidden Fortress. I have also seen those movies pop up here and there on this site but never paid much attetntion to it. What type of movies are these? What genre? Martial arts? Drama? Action? Obviously Seven Samurai has martial arts in it, but is the stoy line good? I like martial art movies, in fact one of my favorite movies of all time is Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. How would you compare that to these? Thanks for any opinions as I always like to get into new stuff that is worth it. Someone here told me to go out and by a Group called Steely Dan on dvd-audio about a year ago. I never heard of them but now they are one of my favorite groups and have 4 more titles.
 

Seth Paxton

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2 masterpiece movies Seven Samurai and Hidden Fortress
Hidden Fortress is a good film, but it's far down the list of his best work. Lucas did take several items almost directly from the film for use in the original trilogy (such as the speeder bike chase in ROTJ), which adds to its fame.


Both are samurai pictures. If you have seen Bug's Life, then you know the story of 7 Sam (Bug's Life is just a remake for kids). A town of farmers hires these rogue samurai to protect their town from bandits. It's an excellent film with human drama and plenty of samurai action too.

Hidden Fortress involves some political wars in which a samurai helps sneak a princess out of hostile territory. 2 goofy sidekicks come along too (the inspiration for R2D2 and C3PO).


BUT, I would put Rashomon and Ikiru easily ahead of Fortress right off the bat as his top films (with 7 Sam). Rashomon is a period piece in which a wild warrior attacks a man and his wife. He is put on trial and each person involved gives THEIR account of what happened. Perceptions vary wildly raising the question of "what is truth", not just in the case but in all of life. Excellent Criterion DVD.

Ikiru is "modern" (50's) piece about a political worker who is diagnosed with cancer and chooses to do something with his life before he dies. No R1 DVD yet.


The other famous Kurosawa work is Yojimbo which was remade a few years later as Fistful of Dollars. If you don't know Fistful (or Last Man Standing, a much worse remake), Yojimbo is about a rogue samurai who comes to a town controlled by 2 "families" of crime/corruption. He plays both sides in order to make money and maybe to free the town. Plenty of Samurai action. Good Criterion DVD. There is also a Criterion DVD of the sequel Sanjuro.


Another one of his best works is High and Low, another "modern" piece (again 50's) about a kidnapping and the police work to solve it. A rich man thinks his son has been kidnapped only to find out they took his butler's son instead. Will he pay? Will the cops find the kidnapper? A GREAT procedural piece (seeing the steps the cops take in the hunt). A terrific film with a good Criterion DVD.


Ran is a Shakespere remake set in Japan (1700's maybe? I forget). Castle's stormed (the middle action piece is incredible), fighting. Great film, horrible R1 DVD.


If you are interested, start with 7 Sam, then go to Rashomon, High and Low, and Yojimbo (actually I think Sanjuro is bit more fun, but it's still a sequel so don't watch it first).



NO, DON'T EXPECT CTHD HERE. This is not wire work, Bruce Lee, etc. This is more classical filmmaking at its very best. Great fighting action, but much more realistic. These are often about Samurai honor, not about kung fu or something. Lots of swordfighting.
 

Matt Pelham

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I absolutely love the Seven Samurai, but I wouldn't even put it anywhere close to Crouching Tiger. Seven Samurai is a character movie with some great action, but nowhere near the in your face wire ballet of some recent matial arts films. I give it my highest recommendation.
 

Matt Stone

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My personal opinion is that Seven Samurai is leaps and bounds above CTHD, but that might be a taste issue. Either way, you should give it a shot. I had never been into Samurai movies, but decided to start renting the works of Kurosawa a few months ago (thanks in part to the urging of Seth)...and I'm hooked now.
 

Jim_K

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Kurosawa's Samurai films aren't really comparable to CTHD (which I do like quite a bit).
Seth already covered quite a few points but I'll throw in my 2 cents.
All of Kurosawa's Samurai films are fantastic. If you're looking for Action/Adventure you should check out these in order:
1. Seven Samurai - his masterpiece
2. Yojimbo - The Pulp Fiction of Samurai films :D
3. Sanjuro - sequel to Yojimbo
4. Hidden Fortress - Not his best but a fantastic light-hearted adventure.
For his more drama/epic Samurai films:
1. Throne of Blood - not on DVD
2. Ran - current DVD is awful
3. Rashomon - Criterion DVD highly recommended
4. Kagemusha - not on DVD
 

Michael Taylor

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Seven Samurai is in my top 3 favorite films of all time. The characters are well drawn out, the emotionally moving story is engaging with humor, drama, action, and even a small love story in there. In short, it has it all. What blows me away, is that the arrows that you see people shot with, were *not* guided by anything more than the well-trained marksmenship of a surehanded archer. According to the commentary, Japanese cinema employed archers who actually shot arrows at the actors, who wore blocks of wood under their costumes. That totally blew my mind when I heard that.

As far as Hidden Fortress, while the performance by Toshiro Mifune is excellent, as always, the story was merely OK, in my opinion. I liked watching it to see if I could recognize any thing that was reflected in Star Wars, but I haven't watched this one more than once. Maybe it gets better the more you watch it, like Seven Samurai.

Just my $0.02
 

JonZ

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There is no comparison between Seven Samurai and CTHD.
Seven Samurai is one of the most fantastic films ever made.Its # 5 on my all time favorite list.
Ahead of Hidden Fortress I would recommend Roshomon(the plot for this film has been reused lots of times, but never as well), Yojimbo(the inspiration for Fist Full of Dollars) and especially Ran(retelling of King Lear in fuedal Japan).
Heres a review from Digital Bits for you http://www.thedigitalbits.com/reviews/sevensamurai.html
If its great martial arts your after, of course Bruce Lee was the best, but also try the Shaw Brothers flicks:
These are my favorites(theyre available on DVD):
5 Deadly Venoms
Avenging Eagle
Unbeatable Shoalin
 

Tommy G

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You take my favorite decade for movies (the 50's) and quite possibly my favorite movie of that decade (Seven Samurai) and you have what amounts to one of the greatest movies of all time. The Hidden Fortress is not in the same class as Seven Samurai but nonetheless is still a good flick. If you have seen the Magnificent Seven, you have essentially seen the Westernized version of Seven Samurai to a certain extent.
 

Lew Crippen

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Well Seth, once again you type more quickly than me. :D
Kikuchiyo said:
I think that Ran is set in the 16th centaury, but I may be misremembering. I think that I’ve read in another thread in HTF, that a new DVD, with a better transfer is about to be released. We can but hope.
Jeff, this would be another to check out. It has some outstanding, mass battle pieces. Based, as Seth indicates, on King Lear, it can be viewed either as a straight action, entertainment piece, or as a ‘serious’ film. Or both.
Have fun.
 

Carlo_M

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I too love both Seven Samurai and CTHD, but agree that they cannot be compared...nor do I think they meant to be (if you ask Ang Lee, I'm pretty sure he'd say 'no').

Seven Samurai is in my top 10 list of all time greatest films. I like The Hidden Fortress seemingly more than some others who've chimed in, putting it in the top half of Kurosawa's films. Rashomon is just a great example of excellent filmmaking that was ahead of its time. Yojimbo/Sanjuro are great too.

But don't go into these films expecting something similar to what you're seeing in Hong Kong cinema, it's not going to happen.
 

Michael Taylor

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But don't go into these films expecting something similar to what you're seeing in Hong Kong cinema, it's not going to happen.
I couldn't agree more. Hong Kong cinema and Kurosawa's classsic samurai films are not even in the same genre. HK has its own style that completely sets it apart, which is one reason why I enjoy it so much. Seven Samurai, Sanjuro, etc. are Japanese versions of John Ford Westerns. If you don't expect tons of wire-fu and karate, you should be enjoy these films very much. Otherwise, your expectations may let you down.
 

Jeff Adams

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Alright, you guys have convinced me. I am going to lunch now and will look for Seven Samurai while I am out. Thank you so much for your opinions. I will let you know what I think of it.
 

Scott Leopold

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Lucas did take several items almost directly from the film for use in the original trilogy (such as the speeder bike chase in ROTJ), which adds to its fame.
That's got to be one of the funniest lines I've ever read!:D
I had a big debate with someone in another forum a few years ago about how THF compares to Star Wars. My answer was "it doesn't". His answer was "THF is just Star Wars with swords". I finally pressed the issue enough to get him to admit that he had never seen THF, but was just trying to sound cool (which seemed odd, coming from someone who spent the greater part of his day posting in a forum about Star Wars toys). On the THF introduction, Lucas basically says those comments were a bit overblown. I personally thought the biggest thing he took from the movie were the wipes.
I really like THF, but it pales in comparison to Seven Samurai, as do most movies. While I would recommend it as an introduction to Kurosawa, since it is generally considered to be his masterpiece, I have yet to see a Kurosawa film that I didn't enjoy. I have all the Criterions, 4 of the Mei Ah's, and the PBS documentary. Unlike some people, I enjoy and recommend the Mei Ah's, mainly because, despite their problems, they're currently the cheapest (and I think only) source for these on R1 DVD. I'll watch any Kurosawa I can, especially if Toshiro Mifune's in it. As great as Kurosawa is, Mifune seemed to make him that much better.
 

Michael Taylor

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I agree with your sentiments about how much Lucas was "inspired by" The Hidden Fortress. I think he was inspired by the two bumbling idiots and turned them into C-3PO and R2-D2. The princess idea seemed like an potential influence, but I honestly couldn't see a many other similarities between SW and THF. If any of you guys have other examples, I would like to hear them. In fact, I will probably have to watch this one again this holiday weekend. I hope I like it better than I remember.

I'll watch any Kurosawa I can, especially if Toshiro Mifune's in it. As great as Kurosawa is, Mifune seemed to make him that much better.
I buy everything I can starring Toshiro Mifune or directed by Kurosawa and I agree, when those two worked together, they produced some of their best work. I think that was why I don't have as high of an opinion about THF. My expections must have been so high, that anything short of them and I was disappointed.
 

John Spencer

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Toshiro Mifune is one of my favorite actors ever. Anything he was in is just that much better for his presence. When you add that to the work of an amazing director like Akira Kurosawa, you are sure to at the least be entertained. I would also agree that Hidden Fortress is one of Kurosawa's more "accessible" works. That doesn't mean it's not good, but it is more of a straight pulp-style adventure story than most of his other works.

I have a hard time choosing a favorite between High and Low and Seven Samurai. Both ar just so well done.
 

Seth Paxton

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Jeff,
from your Tombstone sig you might really like Kurosawa. Many of his samurai films are simply American westerns set in Japan. He was a HUGE fan of John Ford and his westerns, and thus imitated his style (and developed his own unique one). That's why the two translations (Mag 7 and Fistful) were naturally done as westerns when put in an American setting.
Think westerns for his period pieces. Now Ikuru and High and Low are a whole different thing, and as I said, 2 of his finest pieces and perfect examples of HIS style of filmmaking. It's easier to see his style with those films since they are more comparable to the works of more familiar western filmmakers. I mean you can compare crime drama to crime drama pretty easily.
BTW, on the police procedural thing, there are 2 films to see. One is High and Low and the other is M by Fritz Lang. Both are trend setters and excellent in their own right even by today's standards I would say.
 

Seth Paxton

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That's got to be one of the funniest lines I've ever read!
Scott, if it's funny to you because you think its not true, then you also haven't seen Hidden Fortress.

The ROTJ speeder bike chase where one stormtrooper escapes the Luke and Leia ambush is done almost exactly the same as when Mifune et al. come across a couple of army scouts. As they are attacked one scout manages to ride away, Mifune jumps on the other (dead) scout's horse and chases him down to kill him before he can get back to camp and alert the forces.

Yeah, that's not the same.

Even some of the shots are VERY similar within the scene. The second you see it there is no mistaking it.

And Lucas does NOT deny stuff like that. The wipes are just ONE of the things borrowed, not the only thing.

No, the film is not samurai A New Hope, but Lucas used much of the same storyboarding/editing throughout the OT as found most notably in Hidden Fortress.
 

Lew Crippen

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BTW, on the police procedural thing, there are 2 films to see. One is High and Low
And of course High and Low is based on the novel by Ed McBain, King’s Ransom, which is one of a series of police procedure novels set in the fictional 87th Precinct. McBain, writing under his own name, Evan Hunter wrote both the novel and co-authored the screenplay, The Blackboard Jungle, a film that broke new ground in the mid-50s.

One thing leads to another, and one film to another.
 

Doug D

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personally, I'd recommend a Kurosawa newbie start with YOJIMBO: action packed, entertaining, and something like half the length of THE SEVEN SAMURAI. Not that SAMURAI isn't a great film, but it might be a smoother transition from the world of CROUCHING TIGER, HIDDEN DRAGON.

THE HIDDEN FORTRESS is probably my least favorite Kurosawa that I've seen (except for DREAMS, although I need to revisit that one). It's still pretty good, but nowhere near YOJIMBO, SANJURO, HIGH AND LOW, RAN, THRONE OF BLOOD, SEVEN SAMURAI, etc.

My absolute favorite Kurosawa is IKIRU, which has nothing resembling samurai in it, but is a heartbreakingly wonderful film.
 

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