Setting Up a Pioneer DV-45A (1 Viewer)

[Bryan "C." A.]

Dan,
I checked out that thread and found that AustinKW in post 64 confirms exactly what I was trying to point out. I cannot speak for the DV47Ai, but since the DV45A does not process the time alignment part of bass management for SACD, it may not be doing DSD->PCM->BM(->DSD)->analog conversion instead doing DSD->partialBM->analog. I placed the second DSD in parentheses because the Pioneer 49TXi does not do this per AustinKW and I find it highly doubtful that the Philips 936SA converts back to DSD after bass management is done as this would unnecessarily process the signal even further. (In that same thread, John Kotches asked the question why the 936SA would convert PCM back to DSD and Stacey Spears offered a possible reason based on the supposition that the 936SA upconverts other PCM sources such as CD to DSD.) All in all, it was very informative to me, because I thought only DVD-Audio was going to be allowed over the iLink. That was one of the reasons I chose the DV45 over the DV47Ai. Another reason was cost, because I think I may have to replace it in the near future :star: when 6.1 channel output players appear, which I foresee as a definite possibility given the fact that the sixth channel is sometimes meant to be full bandwidth and then there is DTSES. (Yes, I realize the DVD-Audio and SACD sixth channel at full bandwidth is rarely meant to be a back surround like the DTSES channel.) One more reason I chose the DV45 over the DV47Ai is that I am hoping for a definitive standardized system for using the digital link, but that may never come to fruition due to propietary concerns. My final thoughts regarding what I read in that thread are that perhaps DSP could be performed directly on DSD, but it would probably take de-multiplexing each channel to a dedicated buffered processor capable of storing several milliseconds of DSD and that amount of memory may be cost prohibitive.
:star: The near future should be read as before the two year warranty expires, which may seem like a far future to some enthusiasts.

My statement earlier was in regards to dvd-a has no bass management in general. Excluding this and the 47ai player.

Although I would agree with the "in general" part, there are several players that now have bass management. For instance, the Denon DVD-3800 with full digital bass management is the best sounding DVD-Audio player I ever auditioned. The Pioneer DV45A is a close second and offers SACD which sounds at least as good as the Sony NS755V though not quite as ambient as the Sony NS999ES, which, according to all current reports, must be doing the DSD to PCM conversion since the 999ES allows one to set time alignment in the form of speaker distances. The Pioneer does all formats well enough for my ears and at about one fifth the price of buying both the Denon and Sony ES -- not including the extra cables and hassles. If the Pioneer had HDCD included like the Denon, I would be a glowingly happy camper. Sigh, I will have to keep an extra unit stacked in my already crowded cabinet for that purpose.

 

[Bryan "C." A.]

Hmm, I believe this is the second time I have had to reply to my own reply. Usually I edit, but this seems important enough to warrant another reply.

My final thoughts ... are that perhaps DSP could be performed directly on DSD, but it would probably take de-multiplexing each channel to a dedicated buffered processor capable of storing several milliseconds of DSD and that amount of memory may be cost prohibitive.

De-multiplexing to separate buffers is probably what they already do for DSD to PCM and it is not really what I had in mind. I meant that each channel should be continually updated with an exact image of the stream which is why a processor per channel would be needed. Given different time alignment, the processors would be reading from different parts of their respective images while the image updates in the same manner for all of them. I even considered that it might be possible to have a single buffer pool from which to read, but I do not know the feasibility of that idea given that the cycles for read time must necessarily not interfere with the cycles for write time. Anyhow, to conclude, a processor then decodes the information normally but transmits only its dedicated channel. Voila, time alignment without processing the stream to PCM.

 

[Hartwig Hanser]

I hoped, the Pioneer 45 would redirect the .1 channel if told there is no sub, but unfortunately, it is not the case, the .1 info is just dropped. Pity, that was one possible way to avoid the bass doubling on the Rotel 1066 prepro.

 

[Bryan "C." A.]

Hartwig,
I think you may have given the clue to the DV45A. Since you indicate that the bass is not redirected into the front left and right speakers, perhaps it simply drops the frequencies below 120Hz when other speakers are set to small rather than redirecting them to the LFE module. If true, it is not working like a proper cross-over should and an ICBM is probably the best solution as others have pointed out.

 

[Brian L]

I think you may have given the clue to the DV45A. Since you indicate that the bass is not redirected into the front left and right speakers, perhaps it simply drops the frequencies below 120Hz when other speakers are set to small rather than redirecting them to the LFE module. If true, it is not working like a proper cross-over should and an ICBM is probably the best solution as others have pointed out.

Hummm, I am not sure about that.

Avia has full range signals, as well as 200 to 20Hz sweeps that can be directed to each channel. I may or may not get to it today, but it would be easy enough to send the 200 to 20 sweep to the center (or any other channel) and see what you get. If the center is small, it should get down to about 100 or 120 (whatever the crossover is), the smoothly transition to the sub. If the sub does not come out to play, there is a serious BM problem.

Of course, that test would be applicable to Dolby Digital, not not necessarily with other formats.

At least it would answer the question of BM WRT to DD signals (and by extension DTS, since balancing with DTS signals seems to produce the exact same results as with DD; low LFE level).

BL

 

[Brian L]

Ooops, just re-read Hartwigs post......looks like I was commenting on something I though he said, versus what he really said.

Never mind!

BL

 

[Ryan Spaight]

My Sony NS500V DVD/SACD player behaves *exactly* the same way with regard to bass management. It's frustrating to say the least, to the extent that I've determined that it's unusable for multichannel. (With bass-capable fronts, it's fine for stereo.) Having to reconfigure the whole system between normal operation/DD/DTS and SACD is just too much effort.

I was hoping the Pioneer would feature functional bass management, but apparently it doesn't. It would seem a simple enough thing to add a "Add 10db sub channel boost to DVD-A and SACD for compatibility with DD/DTS" option to the menu. At least that would eliminate having to futz with all the levels constantly.

The '45A plus an ICBM sounds like a workable combo, but too much money.

Ryan

 

[Brian L]

Brian- www.chesky.com has a DVD-A test disc. Mine is on the way...

Kevin,
Did you ever get the disc, and if so, did it shed any light on the situation? Sorry if you may have already posted the results.
BL

 

[Keith AP]

The '45A plus an ICBM sounds like a workable combo, but too much money.

I have to agree, Ryan, reluctantly so. Although it pains me to walk away from having a DVD-A/SACD player right now, I just can't justify spending $400-500 for the player and another $400+ for the ICBM and decent audio interconnects.
It's not necessarily the money - but the fact that afterwards I still haven't solved the problem completely because we're still missing the time adjustment associated with speaker placement.
Hopefully these manufacturer's will engineer for the home theater configuration next year. If they can't provide a realistic crossover frequency (though I'll get an ICBM for this if necessary), LFE boost, and adjustable delays for the speakers - I'll have to pass... :frowning:

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Brian- Not yet. I'm worried, because I ordered 2 other discs, and I got those. I'm wondering if they are sold out. It's the Super Audio Collection & prof Test Disc (*not* an SACD).

 

[Brian L]

The latest Sound and Vision has a review of the 45A.

They don't note the low LFE, but do comment in the test panel that the analog outs are lower then most other players. They do note that BM is set to 100Hz, and that it applies to ALL formats (thank goodness!).

Then again, they do not say how many combinations they tested. I would guess probably all speakers small/sub on.
In the write up, Ken Pohlmen (the reviewer) mentions that he used the player with all speakers large/sub on, but again, no mention of low LFE.

Interesting that they do a test to see if the sub output will overload. In the article, they say they apply a worst case signal (no mention of the level, probably 0dB), and got about .8 volts from the LFE output. When I tested with Avia, I barely got .2 volts. Then again, I would not expect Avia to produce a worst case signal.

On an annoying side note, Pioneer is giving a free DVD-A (Fleetwood Mac) and a free SACD (David Bowie) to purchasers of the 45A. It applies to purchases after 11/15. I don't much care for either title, but I hate missing out on freebies. Crap.

BL

 

[Kevin C Brown]

The early bird gets the worm, but not the free DVD-A!
(I'm in the same boat.)

 

[Ben Jordan]

Where do I get my free DVD-Audio and SACD? I just bought my 45A on the 16th (Saturday) at Tweeter. They didn't mention anything there.

Also, anyone else's 45A have a red dot sticker next to the analog subwoofer output? Mine has it, and my bass level seems to be ok, although I need to do more testing.

 

[LanceJ]

Just for comparison purposes......
In the same issue of S&V they test three dvd players, two with dvd-audio & a Sony--of course--with SACD. The Panasonic DVD-XP50's maximum subwoofer output was 4.2 volts, whereas the JVC's was only 0.84 volts & the Sony's was 1.9 volts.
Any commments on these wide-ranging voltages, as to how they might relate to the Pioneer's sub output problem?
Also, a comment on bass-management and why it MIGHT not be that big a problem: in my experience with movies & playing a dvd-audio's DTS/Dolby tracks, there doesn't seem to be any low bass in the surrounds. When I first read that dvd-audio & SACD "required" five full-range speakers I immediately thought these people are completely crazy! How many people will--or are physically able to--place five floorstanders in their living room??? Practically no one, I bet. And why bother with the LFE channel then? Few people then would adopt either new high resolution audio format.
So I've carefully monitored the rears in my system and found there is not much happening back there. At full volume, my 5.25" woofers are just barely vibrating. Maybe I just haven't used the right movie or dvd-audio but this is still a relief. So the sound engineers aren't nuts......I think!
Maybe this is why so many dvd-a players don't have bass management yet-maybe it's not really needed?
The speaker distance setting ability is a whole other issue, but I'm not really sure if it's all that critical anyway (doesn't sound travel at around 900 feet per second at sea level...if you see what I mean ).
LJ

 

[Joe]

In Sound and Vision mag (12/02), page 60, it mentions to log onto pioneerelectronics.com for details about the free disks.

Anyone else got the red sticker on there pioneer? I wonder if they fixed something????

Ben - what sort of equipment do you have connected to your player?

 

[Ben Jordan]

Joe,
I couldn't find anything about the deal on their website, so I e-mailed them, and got a response that I have to call their 800 number. Will probably end up being a big hassle, but I'm going to stick 'em to it.
I guess they did fix something (probably signified by the red dot?) because my levels are all good.
After extensive tests with Avia, I can say that the bass from the 45A's analog output is good, even slightly louder than it's digital output.
All 5.1 of the analog outputs from the 45A are about 10dB lower than its digital outs, so I simply compensated by boosting the 45A +5 (which only changes the analog outs, not the digitals), and the receiver's multi-channel analog input ~+5, leaving its digital at about 0.
This gave me completely even readings of 85dB at 0 on my dial from Avia, analog & digital.
Here are my receiver settings for all speakers:
Analog input: L +5, C +4, R +5, SR +6, SL +6, LFE +0
Coax input: L +0, C -1, R +0, SR +1, SL +1, LFE +3
Good thing my receiver lets me save different input levels for each of my input types! It's an Onkyo 787, btw. It drives Axiom M50Ti mains, VP150 center, QS8 surrounds, and I have a SVS 22-31PCi for the sub. My rear surround channel is a cheap JVC until I can get two more Axioms to go 7.1, in which I'll need an amp, since the 787 only drives one rear surround.
I really like how clean the signal is coming from the 45A through the 787. Using a test CD that has a noise floor test track with all bits at zero, I can crank my knob up to +10 with the digital coax, or about -5 through the multi-channel analog before I can begin to hear noise. I would never listen to music that loud though, since at -20 on the dial, the SACDs I have will hit mid-90dB's! I usually listen to music at -30 or so.
Everyone I have invited over to listen have been amazed at how great the SACDs and DVD-As sound, and get extremely jealous when I tell them how little I spent on my setup!

 

[Dan Stone]

Ben,

I'm glad to hear of your success with this unit. I'm very interested in the DV45A myself, but have been sitting on the sidelines in the hopes that some of the issues regarding low bass get resolved before making a purchase.

I'm curious to hear your opinion (as well as that of anyone else who owns one) of the standard CD playback quality of this player, as that will be what I'd be playing the vast majority of the time.

Any feedback is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Dan

 

[Brent_H]

does anyone think there might be an advantage in using the analog outs and letting the player do the decoding of the DTS and DD instead of the receiver?? just curious....
~Brent

 

[Ben Jordan]

Dan, it's making as a really nice CD player. Fast, accurate, and sounds great. I listened through the digital coax and through the analog, and it's got great detail, with a full, rich sound.

Brent, I've been comparing the difference between the digital and analog outs for movies, and I think the analogs have the advantage on most material.

A friend and I listened last night, and thought that the analog brought out more detail, more clear highs, and a fuller low-end. Was missing the rear surround since its only 5.1 out of the 45A, but I wasn't missing it much. The digital out seemed to have more output in the surrounds, so bumping those up a little should fix that.

 

[morrisjones]

Brent, there's at least one disadvantage to having the DV-45 do all the audio decoding: It doesn't do Dolby Pro-Logic. So if you watch the (rare) movie that's encoded in two-channel with Dolby Pro-logic, you won't get the decoding. Also most of the menu audio and extra features audio is encoded that way.

Mojo