Setting Up a Pioneer DV-45A

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Dave Koch, Oct 8, 2002.

  1. Dave Koch

    Dave Koch Stunt Coordinator

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    Hi:

    Just stepped up from a Pioneer 909 (I think- LD/DVD combo, first generation) to the DV-45A. I auditioned a couple others- Denon 1600, Panosonic 82- but liked this one the best. Anyway, there have been a LOT of changes in DVD players, and I am not all that sure about set-up anymore.

    I guess I should also say this goes into a Marantz AV 9000, and then to a Rotel 1095.

    OK, so, first, do I let the DVD decode DTS/DD, or do that coax or toslink? I guess the deciding factor here is what is a better decoder, the Marantz, or the three burr-browns in the pionerr. Opinions?

    With the DVD-A and SACD, I have no choice- that HAS to go into the ext decode input, and the 6-Channel Direct out. Is this correct?

    OK, now this I do not understand: the setting speaker distances (delay) and levels in the DVD player. Should I level those alone anbd zeroed, as the Marantz has all that processing in the preamp, and it is all set up with VE? Or, since SACD/DVD-A goes through the "direct" mode, does it HAVE to be re-set up in the DVD? If that is set up in DVD, will it effect all output, or only the decoded audio? (That is, if it effects the DD/DTS, would that get double processed in the marantz later???) (Does that make sense????)

    On a similar note, do I want to muck with the video adjustments in the DVD, or do it all on the TV? (BTW, I did muck with the sharpness, turned that all down...)

    Anything else I need to know?

    Thanks!

    dave
     
  2. Brian L

    Brian L Cinematographer

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  3. Dave Koch

    Dave Koch Stunt Coordinator

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    BL:
    Thanks!
    I do NOT think I can have my marantz adjust anything on direct out (I have to check tonight)... but I do not want to double-adjust, either... so I think I will do nothing to DVD and let the per-amp do the adjust, and live with the very minor differences (Everything differs by 1-3 feet and 2-3 db's, as I rememner) for SACD and DVD-A
    I do not yet ahve a DVD-A, but bought two SACD last night (Mozart Requim for me, Vivaldi 4 Seasons for the SAF). Even the wife (who admits to tin ears!) hears a difference with SACD. Her review, "It sounds higher!" [​IMG]
    RE Monsters, Inc. My 2-year-old is addicted to that- her first big break from Barney Videos! I would image by now- it's 4 PM, that has been through the player3-5 times today!
    dave
     
  4. Tim Schwartz

    Tim Schwartz Agent

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    I just got the DV-47Ai all hooked up and I am also noticing the bass was, as you put it "WAY down". I cranked the 47Ai's subwoofer level to +6dB to get it close to what I'm accustomed to. I didn't want to mess with my subwoofer's amp because that would affect everything coming out of the receiver(radio,DD&DTS processed in receiver). Is this just a Pioneer quirk, or are all players with 5.1 analog outputs like this???

    As far as Dave's question:
    If that is set up in DVD, will it effect all output, or only the decoded audio? (That is, if it effects the DD/DTS, would that get double processed in the marantz later???

    I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the Bass Management settings in the DVD player are only applied to the analog outputs. In other words, the DD,DTS, or PCM sent out of the digital coax or toslink connections on the DVD player are Not affected by the Bass Management settings.
     
  5. Dave Koch

    Dave Koch Stunt Coordinator

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    Tim Schwartz:

    Thanks. I, too, noticed the "way down" response of my SVS... I will crank that puppy back up!

    dave
     
  6. Brian L

    Brian L Cinematographer

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  7. Dave Koch

    Dave Koch Stunt Coordinator

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    Brian:
    OK--- I see. Thanks for hitting me over the head!
    I mis-understood the previous post. I thought you were implying that the BM and TA DID effect the digital dd/dts out. If it did, I would NOT want to put those into effect, as it might make DVD-A and SACD sound good, but mess up movies by double-applyng (DVD player and pre-amp) those properties.
    Since I will oNLY be using 6 channel in/analogue out of DVD for hi-res, I will apply those!
    Better!
    dave
     
  8. Tim Schwartz

    Tim Schwartz Agent

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    Brian L.

    Thanks for the info. I thought something was up with the subwoofer output. You must have a sound pressure meter. Before I hopped on the computer this evening I thought I might be buying one, but you have done my testing for me. I just finished setting all speaker levels to -5 and the sub to +6 in an attempt to balance the outputs of the DVD player. It didn't sound like it had enough adjustment range, and based on your info it will take a lot more. That sucks. I liked this player, but I don't have the capability to adjust the 6 channel input levels differently like you do. I guess my 47Ai is going back to the store.
     
  9. Dave Koch

    Dave Koch Stunt Coordinator

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    A little update on my 45A, if anyone cares.

    Wemnt ahead and mage the appropriate adjustments last night, threw in VE and tweaked, then used the DVD tones to adjust the output of the direct audio. I did discover an across the board 1 db difference from the amp adjustments to the DVD adjustments (for whatever that is worth!). That is, I set left to 75 db, and through the amp I had to raise right 1db, and 2 db through the DVD.

    The video looks great. I use S-Vid, my Mits RPTV does not have component. No noticeable chroma bug (to me) Question: does the chroma bug only show up in component? Seek times seem much faster than the old player (a plus!) Dissapointed at the lack of title search from the remote (you can do it from the config menu). Anyone who uses VE will see this as a problem! This was one of the reasons I returned the dennon 1600.

    This was my first outing with DVD-A and SACD. All I can say is WOW! I have 5 so far, in sacd, I have Vivaldi/4 Seasons, Requiem/Mozart, Billie Holliday, Miles Davis and Clapton/King on DVD-A. Very big improvement on cd (but you knew that!) I am trusting I am not hearing the problems of the 47A, as this is my first and only experience with Hi-Def audio, I have nothing to compare it to.

    I discovered the surrounds (Studio ADP) really do sound good with music. Once the sub was adjusted, it worked right in extremely well (SVS 20-39 with new driver). Po[pped it off just to compare- it is really needed for the full, rounded sound.

    The remote hits me hot and cold- I like the ring to scan with, but the joystick for the menu navigation can be tricky. My wife HATES that. Once I get that programed into the Marantz and Pronto remots, should be OK. Tried the old Pioneer remote to see if I could access Titles that way- no go!

    Read other complaints that it is too light/build quality lacking. Surprising for an Elite model. Not as light as the Panasonic RP-82! I test drove one of this for a day, too... that is one UGLY DVD player! Looked totally out of place in my rack.

    Bottom line, I feel very good with the 45A. I really like the options with Hi-Res audio, the look, the set-up... it fits in well with what I wanted.

    thanks! dave
     
  10. Brian L

    Brian L Cinematographer

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  11. Brian L

    Brian L Cinematographer

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    Well, so much for my thinking that Pioneer customer support was going to be helpful.

    Spoke to two different groups, Operation and Set-up, and then Complaints. No one has a clue. The set-up gal did not even have a manual. She said unless there is something in the set-up that is not right, she didn't know what else could be wrong. The complaint guy said take it back for a new one. I said it really looks like a software problem, and a new one would likely have the same issue.

    No one has heard of any problems with these units before.

    I explained that there are others with this issue, and it appears to also effect the 47i, but Mr. Complaint said that for Pioneer to look into it would require that they get reports from their service centers, or get returns from dealers.

    I reiterated that this is not unique to me (I actually sent the two HTF threads to the set-up/operation gal). Unless they get units in to their service branches, they do not look at the problem.

    So, I guess my 45A is heading back to the dealer.

    If anyone is interested, the phone number for Pioneer is 1-800-421-1404. You can try Operation/Set-up, or Complaints.

    What a Bummer.

    BL
     
  12. Dave Koch

    Dave Koch Stunt Coordinator

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    Brian:

    You might want to get onew motre, just to make sure. I was able to get mine playing fine- I did have to boost it in the DVD player to +6 (and, to be honest, it is a bit hot), but it works! At least for me (SVS 20-39)

    I did not have to jack up the sub amp at all...

    dave
     
  13. Paul Johnson

    Paul Johnson Auditioning

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    I've had the 47Ai for a week now and have had no problems with bass output. I've got more bass then I know what to do with in two channel using SACD and CD analog. It's my understanding that bass management in two channel does not work. L/R channels are analog direct with no digital filtering that would send bass from small speakers out to sub. I'm using Mirage OM7 speakers set to large and I have never heard such low, tight bass and mid-bass as I have running 2 channel SACD.

    Before the 47Ai, I had my Rotel RCD-991 hooked up to Anthem's analog direct and could not modify bass nor treble. I think this is the way it's supposed to be. What you get is what's on the source, no more. I like that and do not want anything micky mousing around with the sound.

    I am quite pleased with the sound in CD, DVD-A, and SACD from this unit. My only wish is that it was built like prior ELITE products. It has a lite feel to it. The sound if fine by me. Where else at this point can you find a product like this now. Integra has a DPS 8.3 universal player coming out in Oct and I was thinking about waiting. The kicker for me was Pioneers reputation for DVD video.
     
  14. Tim Schwartz

    Tim Schwartz Agent

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    Well I have some good news. I thought I had the analog outputs for all speakers except the sub set to -6 dB, but they were actually at 0 dB. I was trying to set them in the initial settings menu, but the values in the audio settings menu seems to overide any values placed in initial settings. That sounds really confusing , but if you have one of these players, you'll know what I'm talking about. Anyhow, with the speaker outputs now set to -6dB(their minimum setting) and the sub set to +6 dB( it's maximum) the bass output seems to come very close to matching the other 5 speakers. The bass is a little shy in comparison with sending a digital output and letting my receiver do the decoding, but it's nowhere near as bad as it was with all speakers set to +6 dB(the factory default). This arrangement is kind of a kluge, but it's as good as it can get without some sort of external Bass Management.

    One minor drawback is the volume level when doing the processing in the 47-Ai is now about 12-13 dB lower than when the processing is done in my receiver. So I have to crank the volume up on the receiver to play at a volume level that I'm used to. My wife may have a heart attack if I forget to turn it back down and she turns the TV on. The other drawback, like I said earlier, is that the bass output level is still slightly lower than the other channels and it's MAXXED out. I don't really like the idea of having to tweak these settings to their extremes just to get it close to correct.
     
  15. Hartwig Hanser

    Hartwig Hanser Second Unit

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    Does anybody know the crossover frequency of the bass management?

    And: can you tell the player that you have no sub, and than it mixes the .1 channel into the mains?

    Thanks,

    Hartwig
     
  16. Brian L

    Brian L Cinematographer

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  17. Dave Koch

    Dave Koch Stunt Coordinator

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    I re-set mys sytem with VE after putting in the 45A... I hink I might have had to make a couple 1 db adjustments, but nothing major... so in DD, it was outputing nearly exactly the same as the old DVD player.

    I then used the internal 45A tones to adjust the DVD-A/SACD output, making NO other adjustments (except swithing souces!). All channels needed a 1 db boost (including sub) to match EXACTLY yhe levels.

    Thnings sound great!
     
  18. Brian L

    Brian L Cinematographer

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    I am starting to drive myself nuts.....

    Looking through me DVD collection, I found that I have a copy of the Ultimate DVD Silver - Special Addition (a freebie from Best Buy a while ago).

    It has DTS test tracks, along with DD. Popped it in, sat down on the couch, and set about to taking some measurements. Note that the 45A levels were left at fixed, and that the inputs to the receiver and sub were untouched from my previous calibration session that produced 85 dB across all channels (but with a considerable boost to the sub level to get there).

    In my rig with this test disc, DTS measures the about the same as DD on the main channels, and the LFE track actually puts out about 5 dB more output to the sub than DD.

    So much for my theory that the player doesn't apply the DD +10 dB boost.

    FTR, with the receiver set to 0 dB (this is a THX model, so 0 dB on the volume knob correlates to my calibrated reference level) the test tracks on the Ultimate DVD do produce about 90 dB versus 85 for Avia, but all things being equal, I think I can say that whatever is knocking the sub level down relative to the mains is NOT related to mishandling of DD tracks.

    I think I am going to pour myself a cold one and watch a freakin' movie with lots of loud bass (U571 would fit the bill)......I need a break!

    BL
     
  19. Craig Rosenthal

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    Brian,

    I wonder if this anomoly is the fault of the receiver, rather than the DVD player. The reason that I say this is that I have the same issue with my DV-45A that you do. I have the sub setting on my Denon AVR-3200 boosted by about 8db relative to the other channels. Fortunately, the receiver has independent settings for the 6-channel input, so this doesn't affect my other modes.

    Here's why I suggest that this may be an issue with the 5.1 inputs on our receivers: prior to the DV-45A, I had tried several Sony SACD players in the past 6 months (DVP-NS500V, DVP-NS755V and SCD-775). All three of the SACD players exhibited the exact low bass issue as the DV-45A: weak subwoofer usage, requiring an 8-10db increase in sub output to get the levels set about right. So either the receiver is causing this, or all 4 players (3 SACD, plus the DV-45A) have something in common that is causing this.

    My uneducated guess is that in designing our receivers, somewhere in the design, somehow it was anticipated that the multichannel LFE input should be decreased by roughly 10db.

    As an aside, the lack of pro-logic decoding caught me off guard; I have a 2-year old, and his Elmo DVD is encoded in DD 2.0. I found him hovering around the right-front speaker, which he had never done before. It was then that I realized that Elmo's voice was coming from the mains, not the center. I'm going to go back to the internal DD decoder on my receiver because of this, and use the DV-45A's decoder for DTS only (and SACD/DVD-A of course).


    Craig
     
  20. Brian L

    Brian L Cinematographer

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