Setting Up a Pioneer DV-45A (1 Viewer)

[Dave Koch]

Hi:

Just stepped up from a Pioneer 909 (I think- LD/DVD combo, first generation) to the DV-45A. I auditioned a couple others- Denon 1600, Panosonic 82- but liked this one the best. Anyway, there have been a LOT of changes in DVD players, and I am not all that sure about set-up anymore.

I guess I should also say this goes into a Marantz AV 9000, and then to a Rotel 1095.

OK, so, first, do I let the DVD decode DTS/DD, or do that coax or toslink? I guess the deciding factor here is what is a better decoder, the Marantz, or the three burr-browns in the pionerr. Opinions?

With the DVD-A and SACD, I have no choice- that HAS to go into the ext decode input, and the 6-Channel Direct out. Is this correct?

OK, now this I do not understand: the setting speaker distances (delay) and levels in the DVD player. Should I level those alone anbd zeroed, as the Marantz has all that processing in the preamp, and it is all set up with VE? Or, since SACD/DVD-A goes through the "direct" mode, does it HAVE to be re-set up in the DVD? If that is set up in DVD, will it effect all output, or only the decoded audio? (That is, if it effects the DD/DTS, would that get double processed in the marantz later???) (Does that make sense????)

On a similar note, do I want to muck with the video adjustments in the DVD, or do it all on the TV? (BTW, I did muck with the sharpness, turned that all down...)

Anything else I need to know?

Thanks!

dave

 

[Brian L]

On a similar note, do I want to muck with the video adjustments in the DVD, or do it all on the TV? (BTW, I did muck with the sharpness, turned that all down...)

I have not touched my video settings on the player yet. My display was tweaked with Avia for my last player ( A Sony 650D), and I was pleasantly surprised at the quality of the picture from the 45A.

Sony has been known for good in-player letterboxing, and since I still have a 4:3 interlaced display, I was concerned that the 45A would fall short, but thus far the picture has looked very good (I have not A/B'd it, but dare I say it may look even better?).

I personally have always left the DVD players alone, and only tweaked the display, although you may find that when tweaked for DVD, other sources look bad. In my case, I am OK with normal DirecTV viewing through the same input on the set as the 45A.

Other things?

Well, I found that DVD-A discs (the 3 titles I have include a DD, DTS, and DVD-A track) can be a PITA to access the other tracks. So far, the discs I have default to DVD-A (which in theory should be the highest quality track), and to get to the other tracks, you need to select the correct Group from the players menu (not the disc menu); and the groups are not labeled. Pick a group, hit play, and his the display button to see what you have.

IMHO, the DVD-A and/or the player folks need to work together to make it easier to select alternate tracks.

Also, make sure you do not connect the player to a switched outlet; it will forget your settings if you do so if you shut the power off before hitting the off button (there is mention of that in the manual).

I watched Monsters Inc., last night, and was pretty pleased with the sound and picture.

My 1st DVD-A and SACD listening session was a bit disappointing because I had not yet set the levels and the bass was WAY down.

I have a few of the Stones SACD releases, as was as ELP Brain Salad Surgery, A Night at the Opera, and Big Phatt Band. Can't wait to sit down for a serious listening session.

Good Luck. If I find any other items of interest, I will chime in.

BL

 

[Dave Koch]

BL:
Thanks!
I do NOT think I can have my marantz adjust anything on direct out (I have to check tonight)... but I do not want to double-adjust, either... so I think I will do nothing to DVD and let the per-amp do the adjust, and live with the very minor differences (Everything differs by 1-3 feet and 2-3 db's, as I rememner) for SACD and DVD-A
I do not yet ahve a DVD-A, but bought two SACD last night (Mozart Requim for me, Vivaldi 4 Seasons for the SAF). Even the wife (who admits to tin ears!) hears a difference with SACD. Her review, "It sounds higher!"
RE Monsters, Inc. My 2-year-old is addicted to that- her first big break from Barney Videos! I would image by now- it's 4 PM, that has been through the player3-5 times today!
dave

 

[Tim Schwartz]

I just got the DV-47Ai all hooked up and I am also noticing the bass was, as you put it "WAY down". I cranked the 47Ai's subwoofer level to +6dB to get it close to what I'm accustomed to. I didn't want to mess with my subwoofer's amp because that would affect everything coming out of the receiver(radio,DD&DTS processed in receiver). Is this just a Pioneer quirk, or are all players with 5.1 analog outputs like this???

As far as Dave's question:
If that is set up in DVD, will it effect all output, or only the decoded audio? (That is, if it effects the DD/DTS, would that get double processed in the marantz later???

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the Bass Management settings in the DVD player are only applied to the analog outputs. In other words, the DD,DTS, or PCM sent out of the digital coax or toslink connections on the DVD player are Not affected by the Bass Management settings.

 

[Dave Koch]

Tim Schwartz:

Thanks. I, too, noticed the "way down" response of my SVS... I will crank that puppy back up!

dave

 

[Brian L]

I didn't want to mess with my subwoofer's amp because that would affect everything coming out of the receiver(radio,DD&DTS processed in receiver). Is this just a Pioneer quirk, or are all players with 5.1 analog outputs like this???

In my case, I am comparing to my previous processor (A Sony SDP-E800) so I can't say if other 5.1 devices are similarly effected.

In my system, leaving the 45A set to fixed (which is equivalent to +6 if you set it to variable, BTW) required that I crank the 6CH input's Sub level (on the receiver) to its max (+10dB), and that was still not enough to get the sub test tone up to 85 dB reference. My solution was to crank the amp on the HSU sub a full 1/4 turn (it is now at 3:00 on the dial versus 12:00 with my Sony (all Sony levels were fixed). This allowed me to back off on the ^ch sub in, so its not maxed (its actualy now at about +4).

As you said, this skews my Pro Logic and Stereo sources, so I need to lower the sub setting on those inputs (my receiver allows separate input trim for Stereo, ProLogic, and 6 CH).

For me, thats a life saver or the 45A would be heading back to the store.

In days past, there were some DD processors that did not have a proper sub level. Internally, DD decoders are supposed to set the sub level +10dB. Normally, this is nothing you need to worry about; test tones on Avia and VE should take this into account.

I wonder however, if in the 45A, since it is a multiformat player, they were not able to do that without messing up the other formats?

BL

 

[Dave Koch]

Brian:
OK--- I see. Thanks for hitting me over the head!
I mis-understood the previous post. I thought you were implying that the BM and TA DID effect the digital dd/dts out. If it did, I would NOT want to put those into effect, as it might make DVD-A and SACD sound good, but mess up movies by double-applyng (DVD player and pre-amp) those properties.
Since I will oNLY be using 6 channel in/analogue out of DVD for hi-res, I will apply those!
Better!
dave

 

[Tim Schwartz]

Brian L.

Thanks for the info. I thought something was up with the subwoofer output. You must have a sound pressure meter. Before I hopped on the computer this evening I thought I might be buying one, but you have done my testing for me. I just finished setting all speaker levels to -5 and the sub to +6 in an attempt to balance the outputs of the DVD player. It didn't sound like it had enough adjustment range, and based on your info it will take a lot more. That sucks. I liked this player, but I don't have the capability to adjust the 6 channel input levels differently like you do. I guess my 47Ai is going back to the store.

 

[Dave Koch]

A little update on my 45A, if anyone cares.

Wemnt ahead and mage the appropriate adjustments last night, threw in VE and tweaked, then used the DVD tones to adjust the output of the direct audio. I did discover an across the board 1 db difference from the amp adjustments to the DVD adjustments (for whatever that is worth!). That is, I set left to 75 db, and through the amp I had to raise right 1db, and 2 db through the DVD.

The video looks great. I use S-Vid, my Mits RPTV does not have component. No noticeable chroma bug (to me) Question: does the chroma bug only show up in component? Seek times seem much faster than the old player (a plus!) Dissapointed at the lack of title search from the remote (you can do it from the config menu). Anyone who uses VE will see this as a problem! This was one of the reasons I returned the dennon 1600.

This was my first outing with DVD-A and SACD. All I can say is WOW! I have 5 so far, in sacd, I have Vivaldi/4 Seasons, Requiem/Mozart, Billie Holliday, Miles Davis and Clapton/King on DVD-A. Very big improvement on cd (but you knew that!) I am trusting I am not hearing the problems of the 47A, as this is my first and only experience with Hi-Def audio, I have nothing to compare it to.

I discovered the surrounds (Studio ADP) really do sound good with music. Once the sub was adjusted, it worked right in extremely well (SVS 20-39 with new driver). Po[pped it off just to compare- it is really needed for the full, rounded sound.

The remote hits me hot and cold- I like the ring to scan with, but the joystick for the menu navigation can be tricky. My wife HATES that. Once I get that programed into the Marantz and Pronto remots, should be OK. Tried the old Pioneer remote to see if I could access Titles that way- no go!

Read other complaints that it is too light/build quality lacking. Surprising for an Elite model. Not as light as the Panasonic RP-82! I test drove one of this for a day, too... that is one UGLY DVD player! Looked totally out of place in my rack.

Bottom line, I feel very good with the 45A. I really like the options with Hi-Res audio, the look, the set-up... it fits in well with what I wanted.

thanks! dave

 

[Brian L]

It didn't sound like it had enough adjustment range, and based on your info it will take a lot more. That sucks. I liked this player, but I don't have the capability to adjust the 6 channel input levels differently like you do. I guess my 47Ai is going back to the store.

Played around with it a bit more this morning. By adjusting the sub amp's level control (almost 1/4 of a turn above my previous settings), I can get 75 dB in Pro Logic (using the internal test tones in the Marantz), and 85 dB with the Avia tones, but, I have to set the PL sub input level down to about -8 (on a +/- 10 scale), and the 6CH sub input to about +9.

That leaves me with plenty of head room for PL, but squat for 6CH sources. If I further raise the sub amps level, I can get 85 dB while still having some amount of adjustment range, but I will not be able to attenuate the level for PL and stereo sources

It seems to me that there is a problem in the player, in that the main channels level match fine (relative to my previous set-up), but the sub seems to be down somewhere on the order of 10 dB or so (compared to the main channels and relative to my previous DD decoder).

I am going to ring up Pioneer's tech support folks and see if there is anything I am missing. I had good results speaking to them o previously regarding a Pioneer CD recorder.

Lastly, the 45A is set-up with all speakers small, Sub On.

I will chime in if/when I get somewhere. Unfortunately, I am thinking that may 45A may also be heading back to the store, which would truly suck.

One unrelated point.....I don't think that the 45A does Pro Logic decoding. If you have a DVD with Pro Logic, it is actually encoded as DD 2.0. If you are using the 5.1 analog outs, you with get a L/R signal, but it will not be matrix decoded. To get PL, you will need to use the 2CH outs, and use your external decoder.

No biggy, but it does add some amount of complexity for older films with matrix sound tracks.

BL

 

[Brian L]

Well, so much for my thinking that Pioneer customer support was going to be helpful.

Spoke to two different groups, Operation and Set-up, and then Complaints. No one has a clue. The set-up gal did not even have a manual. She said unless there is something in the set-up that is not right, she didn't know what else could be wrong. The complaint guy said take it back for a new one. I said it really looks like a software problem, and a new one would likely have the same issue.

No one has heard of any problems with these units before.

I explained that there are others with this issue, and it appears to also effect the 47i, but Mr. Complaint said that for Pioneer to look into it would require that they get reports from their service centers, or get returns from dealers.

I reiterated that this is not unique to me (I actually sent the two HTF threads to the set-up/operation gal). Unless they get units in to their service branches, they do not look at the problem.

So, I guess my 45A is heading back to the dealer.

If anyone is interested, the phone number for Pioneer is 1-800-421-1404. You can try Operation/Set-up, or Complaints.

What a Bummer.

BL

 

[Dave Koch]

Brian:

You might want to get onew motre, just to make sure. I was able to get mine playing fine- I did have to boost it in the DVD player to +6 (and, to be honest, it is a bit hot), but it works! At least for me (SVS 20-39)

I did not have to jack up the sub amp at all...

dave

 

[Paul Johnson]

I've had the 47Ai for a week now and have had no problems with bass output. I've got more bass then I know what to do with in two channel using SACD and CD analog. It's my understanding that bass management in two channel does not work. L/R channels are analog direct with no digital filtering that would send bass from small speakers out to sub. I'm using Mirage OM7 speakers set to large and I have never heard such low, tight bass and mid-bass as I have running 2 channel SACD.

Before the 47Ai, I had my Rotel RCD-991 hooked up to Anthem's analog direct and could not modify bass nor treble. I think this is the way it's supposed to be. What you get is what's on the source, no more. I like that and do not want anything micky mousing around with the sound.

I am quite pleased with the sound in CD, DVD-A, and SACD from this unit. My only wish is that it was built like prior ELITE products. It has a lite feel to it. The sound if fine by me. Where else at this point can you find a product like this now. Integra has a DPS 8.3 universal player coming out in Oct and I was thinking about waiting. The kicker for me was Pioneers reputation for DVD video.

 

[Tim Schwartz]

Well I have some good news. I thought I had the analog outputs for all speakers except the sub set to -6 dB, but they were actually at 0 dB. I was trying to set them in the initial settings menu, but the values in the audio settings menu seems to overide any values placed in initial settings. That sounds really confusing , but if you have one of these players, you'll know what I'm talking about. Anyhow, with the speaker outputs now set to -6dB(their minimum setting) and the sub set to +6 dB( it's maximum) the bass output seems to come very close to matching the other 5 speakers. The bass is a little shy in comparison with sending a digital output and letting my receiver do the decoding, but it's nowhere near as bad as it was with all speakers set to +6 dB(the factory default). This arrangement is kind of a kluge, but it's as good as it can get without some sort of external Bass Management.

One minor drawback is the volume level when doing the processing in the 47-Ai is now about 12-13 dB lower than when the processing is done in my receiver. So I have to crank the volume up on the receiver to play at a volume level that I'm used to. My wife may have a heart attack if I forget to turn it back down and she turns the TV on. The other drawback, like I said earlier, is that the bass output level is still slightly lower than the other channels and it's MAXXED out. I don't really like the idea of having to tweak these settings to their extremes just to get it close to correct.

 

[Hartwig Hanser]

Does anybody know the crossover frequency of the bass management?

And: can you tell the player that you have no sub, and than it mixes the .1 channel into the mains?

Thanks,

Hartwig

 

[Brian L]

I was trying to set them in the initial settings menu, but the values in the audio settings menu seems to override any values placed in initial settings. That sounds really confusing , but if you have one of these players, you'll know what I'm talking about. Anyhow, with the speaker outputs now set to -6dB(their minimum setting) and the sub set to +6 dB( it's maximum) the bass output seems to come very close to matching the other 5 speakers.

I will revisit this. My expectation is that the audio levels can be set in two places.....Initial Settings, and Audio Settings. Whichever is set last wins, so I guess it can be said that one will override the other.

I will try going first to variable, and set everything to +6 (pretty sure I tried that, and got the same result as when set to fixed).

I will also try your -6 main/+6 Sub approach, but I suspect I may then have the opposite problem; the mains can not be set to a proper 85 dB reference, while the sub can come close.

Just to be clear, I can get the 45A to produce 85 dB from ALL channels when balancing with Avia and a SPL meter. This require raising the sub input level receiver AND the sub level on the amp by an amount that then gives me way too much sub level for PL and Stereo sources decoded in the receiver.

I guess another option is to simply set then to be equal, without regard to any particular reference. I bet I could probably get 75 dB on all channels w/o needing to wack the sub level up.

All that being said, until it is proven otherwise, I am still of the opinion that the 5.1 outputs of the 45A should be capable of equal levels when presented with equal input signals, without resorting to applying large amounts of boost to the sub signal path.

I made a comment earlier about DD sub levels being boosted 10dB in the decoder (there is a lot of discussion on that subject in the archives). The issue is that DTS does NOT do this, and thus, setting levels with DD test discs may result in bass level mismatches between DTS and DD. I may be wrong, but I seem to recall somewhere that DD test signals for the sub are intensionally 10 dB down relative to the other channels.

If the 45A does not apply this +10 dB in the DD decoder (perhaps for compatibility between all the different MC sources?), that would make the sub levels appear 10 dB low, which is pretty well what I am measuring.

So, that begs the question, are there any DVD-A, SACD, and DTS test signals that could be used to see how those siurces fair? I don't know of any but until last Sunday, I was a Pro Logic and DD kind of guy.

The quest continues............

BL

 

[Dave Koch]

I re-set mys sytem with VE after putting in the 45A... I hink I might have had to make a couple 1 db adjustments, but nothing major... so in DD, it was outputing nearly exactly the same as the old DVD player.

I then used the internal 45A tones to adjust the DVD-A/SACD output, making NO other adjustments (except swithing souces!). All channels needed a 1 db boost (including sub) to match EXACTLY yhe levels.

Thnings sound great!

 

[Brian L]

I am starting to drive myself nuts.....

Looking through me DVD collection, I found that I have a copy of the Ultimate DVD Silver - Special Addition (a freebie from Best Buy a while ago).

It has DTS test tracks, along with DD. Popped it in, sat down on the couch, and set about to taking some measurements. Note that the 45A levels were left at fixed, and that the inputs to the receiver and sub were untouched from my previous calibration session that produced 85 dB across all channels (but with a considerable boost to the sub level to get there).

In my rig with this test disc, DTS measures the about the same as DD on the main channels, and the LFE track actually puts out about 5 dB more output to the sub than DD.

So much for my theory that the player doesn't apply the DD +10 dB boost.

FTR, with the receiver set to 0 dB (this is a THX model, so 0 dB on the volume knob correlates to my calibrated reference level) the test tracks on the Ultimate DVD do produce about 90 dB versus 85 for Avia, but all things being equal, I think I can say that whatever is knocking the sub level down relative to the mains is NOT related to mishandling of DD tracks.

I think I am going to pour myself a cold one and watch a freakin' movie with lots of loud bass (U571 would fit the bill)......I need a break!

BL

 

[Craig Rosenthal]

Brian,

I wonder if this anomoly is the fault of the receiver, rather than the DVD player. The reason that I say this is that I have the same issue with my DV-45A that you do. I have the sub setting on my Denon AVR-3200 boosted by about 8db relative to the other channels. Fortunately, the receiver has independent settings for the 6-channel input, so this doesn't affect my other modes.

Here's why I suggest that this may be an issue with the 5.1 inputs on our receivers: prior to the DV-45A, I had tried several Sony SACD players in the past 6 months (DVP-NS500V, DVP-NS755V and SCD-775). All three of the SACD players exhibited the exact low bass issue as the DV-45A: weak subwoofer usage, requiring an 8-10db increase in sub output to get the levels set about right. So either the receiver is causing this, or all 4 players (3 SACD, plus the DV-45A) have something in common that is causing this.

My uneducated guess is that in designing our receivers, somewhere in the design, somehow it was anticipated that the multichannel LFE input should be decreased by roughly 10db.

As an aside, the lack of pro-logic decoding caught me off guard; I have a 2-year old, and his Elmo DVD is encoded in DD 2.0. I found him hovering around the right-front speaker, which he had never done before. It was then that I realized that Elmo's voice was coming from the mains, not the center. I'm going to go back to the internal DD decoder on my receiver because of this, and use the DV-45A's decoder for DTS only (and SACD/DVD-A of course).


Craig

 

[Brian L]

I wonder if this anomoly is the fault of the receiver, rather than the DVD player. The reason that I say this is that I have the same issue with my DV-45A that you do. I have the sub setting on my Denon AVR-3200 boosted by about 8db relative to the other channels. Fortunately, the receiver has independent settings for the 6-channel input, so this doesn't affect my other modes.

At this point I would not discount any possible explanation, but I have my doubts.

In my situation, I have had connected to my 6CH inputs a Sony 650D DVD Carousel with Intermal DD decoder, and my old trusry Sony SDP-E800. Neither required any significant boost of bass, and I left the sub amp at 12:00.

That said, I have never had a DVD-A or SACD player in my rig before, so perhaps the game has changed.

I spent some more time balancing levels today, and have it so that the 6CH in gets about a +8 boost of the sub channels (for 85 dB across the board via Avia), and Pro Logic and Stereo sources get about a -8 adjustment (for 75 dB across the board via internal test tones). Thats with the sub amp at about 2:00.

Any more increase at the sub amp and I will NOT be able to dial out the PL/Stereo sub levels, any additional decrease and I will not be able to add enough boost to the 45A output.

I am going to call it a draw, and live with it, although I still think something is amiss.

That said, I have openned some correspondence with Pioneer to see if they can explain why its down.

BL