setting speakers to small or large? (1 Viewer)

[Jeff Gatie]

The choice is very personal and depends on your listening habits. Some like large floorstanders because they listen to music more than HT and like the sound of floorstanders with no sub for music (see Jack's post above, he finds his sub "superfluous" when listen to music). Some for whom music is not as critical and would like the best speakers for the money would probably opt for the best bookshelfs or medium sized speaker with a freq. resp. down to around 60Hz rather than 40-30Hz or so. Since the bass will be handled by the sub, you can devote more $$ to the higher frequencies by buying better quality, but less bass capable, mains/center/surrounds.

 

[darrylCHER]

I have a different take on this. After a TON of testing x-over settings and "large" & "small" settings I have decided to go "large" all around, let me explain.

First off, I use (3) Athena AS-C1's as my LCR, (2) Athena AS-B1's as my surround and an AS-P400 Athena sub. All powered by a Yamaha 5760.

I know, I know. You guys are thinking "moron!!"

But the 5760 has a bass/lfe setting that you can set to "both". When you do this every speaker gets a full range signal and only the sub gets lfe AND bass from the front LR channels as well.(below the selected x-over point ie; 40-200hz)

With all my speakers set to "small" and the x-over set to 60-90hz, my system does sound good. BUT, with the speakers all set to "large" it sounds way more dynamic with a ton more bass on 2 channel or 5.1.

I called Athena and asked them about this setup, and the tech guy assured me that the speakers can handle it. (as said earlier, they just "roll off" the bass they can't handle).

For testing: I used i-Robot and the Day After Tomorrow, real good bass movies.

I set all my speakers to "large", and the lfe/bass setting to "front"(no sub, the 5 speakers are doing all the work). I cranked it up to -8. Thats LOUD on my system, I usually use -12 to -15.

With no sub and all the bass/lfe going to the 5 speakers, there was no/zero distortion at that too loud of level, and the room was even shaking a bit.

My biggest fear with the "large" setting was distortion, and none was heard from any of the 5 speakers, even with my ear right at the speaker. (What, hugh, can you speak up )

Once I verified there was no distortion, I set the lfe/bass setting to "both" (lfe/front LR bass to sub) and the x-over to a high 120hz, man what a difference.

Scenes that I am so familiar with that I hear them in my sleep, suddenly had a totally new "impact".

That tidal wave and helicopter crash on D-A-T made my room fill with a sort of pressure that I have never heard on my system.


Anyway, I know I'm swimming up stream on this "large" thing, but with that lfe/bass feature on my Yamaha, you don't lose any bass, you GAIN bass.

Fire away guys, I'm ready!!!



Darryl

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Just to update this, because the term "woofer" can make it confusing. The "woofer" in most tower speakers is just that, a "woofer". The "sub" in subwoofer means "below" a woofer. You would definitely be using the woofer in a 3 way speaker. You just would not be trolling very deep with it because the sub would handle the low bass. So the woofer would be playing, it just would not be straining to hit (or rolling off) the sub-bass notes.

 

[Jeff Gatie]

That's because you are doubling the bass sent to your speakers (minus whatever rolls off the mains). It should have more impact and more bass, because the processor is sending out more bass. That does not necessarily make it accurate, but if it sounds good to you, all the more power to ya (no pun intended).

 

[Neil McCaulley]

Hey Daryl,


I may be getting confused here. On my Onkyo receiver, I too have the settings for BASS and TREBLE. I currently have both of them set at a level of +6. (They both have a range from -12 to +12.) Are you saying that if I want to get a lower, booming, clean rumble from my subwoofer, I should explore LOWERING the setting of the bass from +6 to like a zero or a -2?

Another thing, my #1 purpose of getting this system, TV and all, is to create for myself the absolute best movie experience I can with what I have. This being the case, should I consider an upgrade to floor-standing 3-ways eventually, since you said that most people get them for music only with their subs turned off? Or will I get that 'null' problem that Philip talked about earlier?

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Cancellation nulls occur with very low bass from 2 or more sources that are not co-located. This is due to the long wavelength of low bass tones. Long wavelength means there are more areas two waves that are not from the same source can overlap. When waves from two different sources overlap, they cancel each other out in certain parts (and sometimes double in amplitude in other parts, causing "peaks"). The place where it cancels out is called a "null". In a null, the sound is muffled or even disappears for parts of the bass spectrum. This is why it is more difficult to get good sound from two subs in different parts of the room than to have just one or have 2 in the same corner. This goes for subs that are built into the mains also. If you set your mains to "small", the problem goes away because your mains are not playing low bass anymore.

 

[darrylCHER]

Neil, The -8,-12,&-15 that I spoke of is my master volume setting.

I have all my tone controls (bass/treble/equalizer) bypassed or off (0).

Try setting your controls to off (0). On a lot of receivers, the bass control setting is around 70 -100hz and maybe thats "mudding" up the sound at the lower frequencies.

Maybe too much energy at 70-90hz and not enough at 30-40hz? (that rumble you want)




Darryl


You are just too quick Jeff!!!!

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Just to clarify, as I think this gives the wrong impression and implies something general when I described a specific instance: I set my speakers to "Large" for SACD via the "MC Direct" setting on my Sony 775 changer since this is the setting that doesn't process the signal, downsampling to PCM. This is why I use the large (Direct) setting, not because I "prefer no sub with music". The sub continues to get any ".1" bass that's on the disc. The bass response on the F2 is very good, so much so that it may well render a sub superfluous for much music at the levels I listen (lower than movies).

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Right Jack, I shouldn't have generalized, but I needed a quick example and your post seemed to fit (after I chopped it up and squeezed it in). :b

 

[Max F]

Here's what i did:

My receiver (Panasonic) only has a filter at 100 hz. So, I have my speakers set to large. When i play music my mains are getting full range and my sub is getting everything below 100hz. My mains start to roll of at 60 hz and i have the crossover up on the sub at around 80 hz. The level into my sub is equilized by the BFD to be as flat as possible with both the sub and speakers playing tones at the same time.

My mains are slightly boomy (i would love to EQ the mains too) so i have the bass tone at -4 db (i know thats a sin). The sub volume is set to around the volume of a 1000 hz tone in the mains.

And it sounds pretty damn good to me for both music and movies. Movies sound good no matter what i have it set to.

 

[Neil McCaulley]

Hey Darryl,


So, what exactly does the Bass and Treble adjustments accomplish? Near as I can tell, it just makes the sound louder. I tried it set at 0 (neutral) and I notice I have to increase my main volume a lot higher than normal.

My ultimate goal is to get that low rumble effect when watching a movie that requires it. I like to be able to FEEL my bass during the movie. Not for music, like listening to CDs or anything. I am not a fan of the sub being used when I listen to music, MOVIES ONLY! What settings do you recommend in order for me to achieve this?

 

[Philip Hamm]

you should buy some of these

 

[Neil McCaulley]

Whoa philip! I did not know those things existed! I would not be able to use it though because my home is on a slab. My other home would have been perfect for these!

 

[Philip Hamm]

huh? Why not? I don't understand the connection. People who love to "feel" the bass generally love these things. You install them in your seating furniture.

 

[TimB]

Maybe I am missing something, we'll see. I am confused at the difference between Large and Small and crossover settings.

Scenario 1:
Speakers setting to Large, crossover 80. This implies that the speakers handle 80Hz and up, and the sub handles 80 Hz and below.

Scenario 2:
Speakers setting to Small, crossover 80. This implies that the speakers handle 80 Hz and up, and the sub handles 80 Hz and below.

At first glance, both appear to do the same. Am I missing something?

I have a Yamaha 1400, and am currently configured in scenario 1. My LFE/Bass out is set to Sub. The sub only goes on during movies for the LFE track, which seems to indicate Large ignores crossover settings, and only LFE goes to subwoofer. Sub won't do 80Hz and below for all source, only LFE. For example, the sub doesn't even turn on for cd sources (including Eminem). I have Energy C-7 mains (which go quite low)

So, upon reading to all of this, will the receiver ONLY do the 80Hz crossover to the sub for all sources including LFE if the other speakers are set to small???

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Yep. "Large" means that a full signal, regardless of crossover setting, will go to each speaker. It may vary for different receivers (haven't seen one yet), but this is the standard.

 

[darrylCHER]

Tim, when you set ALL of the speakers to large, then the x-over is in fact "off". Each channel receives a full range signal and the sub only gets the LFE tack on 5.1.

Also, you are correct that the sub won't get a signal when using 2 channel sources when the "LFE/Bass out" setting is set to subwoofer.

If you want the sub to play bass other than the LFE track while ALL your speakers are set to large, then you have to set the LFE/Bass out setting to "Both"

If you set any or all of your speakers to small, then thats when the x-over turns "on" at whatever frequency you selected, for what ever channel you set to small.

I'm still going back and forth between:

All large, LFE/Bass setting to both
All small, LFE/Bass setting to subwoofer, x-over @ 60-80hz




Darryl

Jeff, you got me by 1 min the first time, and 3 min this time, I'm getting faster!!!

 

[TimB]

In response to:

----If you want the sub to play bass other than the LFE track while ALL your speakers are set to large, than you have to set the LFE/Bass out setting to "Both"----

If I set this to Both, which I have previously done, will it only send 80 and below to the sub?

Using the yamaha ypao feature, it set all my speakers to Large, except my surround backs (6.1/7.1) even though the surround backs are the same speaker type as the surround l/r (cr-1's). LFE/Bass out to Sub. Is there a reason it did this rather than set all speakers to small with a 80 Hz crossover???

I guess that since the C-7's do such a good job with bass, I don't want to lose that by having the sub do more of the work. I'll tinker with it though. Don't get me wrong, the C-7's sure do bass very well, so well that it sounds as if the sub is indeed on.

Thanks everyone!

 

[darrylCHER]

Yes, if all the speakers are set to large and the lfe/bass setting to both, the x-over still filters the bass from the front channels at whatever point you chose (the front channels still receive a full range signal, the x-over acts like a high pass filter for the sub only).

It's very easy to test this. Set all the speakers to large, "lfe/bass" to both and the sub is in standby, then set the x-over to 40hz and play a cd at a low level and note when the sub turns on (mine has a green/red LED).

Then do the same with the x-over set to 200hz and see how much quicker the sub turns on.


Darryl

 

[NickYours]

Question about settings without a sub. I have 2.5 way fronts and center which my Marantz set to large during auto setup. I have small 2 way book shelves for rears that the Marantz set to small. No sub yet (will get one this spring). I have the receiver set to no sub and a cross over at 80Hz but I have no idea if that does anything without a sub.

Should I set all to larget so no bass is attenuated then, or leave the rears to small because they couldn't do anything with it anyway? Or set them to large as well because there it won't send the bass from the rears anywhere?