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Sen. Wellstone of Minnesota dies in plane crash (1 Viewer)

Jerry Klawiter

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Now the people of Eveleth Minnesota will no longer be
recognized as the Home of the Hockey Hall of Fame but rather
the place these souls had been lost.

It's still feels so unreal this morning.
 

Philip_G

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General aviation is safer than automobile travel. Pilots need to know their aircraft, its performance characteristics, the weather and icing conditions, alternate landing sites along their route, and their own limitations. Most GA accidents are pilot error, not something inherently wrong with small aircraft.
buzz makes excellent points, however most aircraft accident period are caused by human factors, pilot error really isn't used anymore. Anything from communication problems between crew members, between the crew and ATC, to problems of perception, fatigue, it goes on and on. A book I'm reading now gives 70% of all accidents are human factor related, while the number of accidents caused by mechanical failures decreases, that number has stayed the same. Accidents are pretty rarely caused by a technical error on the part of the pilot, but often a long chain of events.
"the naked pilot" is an excellent book on human factors in aircraft accidents if it's something that interests you.
Anything on the accident right now is speculation. Why not wait until the NTSB report before pointing fingers?
 

Philip_G

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no, I know. My comment wasn't really pointed at you.
I just get annoyed at assumptions people make when they really shouldn't. Airplane accidents are such complicated matters I hate to see the general public jump to conclusions. I was told for this month our airport was #9 for operations (by my classroom instructor, not sure his source. so take it with a grain or cup of salt) since we have 3 commercial flights a day in and out, the bulk of our traffic is GA and business, since those "little airplanes" are so unsafe we should have like 5 dead people a week then, right? ;)
 

Chris

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While Mr. Wellstone & myself have different slants on politics, he was one thing many politicians are not: true to his beliefs.

There are many in both parties who seemingly are with their party primarily for the monetary benefit, who's ideological beliefs are up for sale. Mr. Wellstone was not one of those men.

Many conservatives and liberals - true at that - will fight over issues and walk away not understanding how the other side can see the others viewpoint. They can talk about it, fight about it, but stay true to their belief. That's the beauty of American politics. Meanwhile, too many elected do the reverse, they talk and fight.. until a check comes out.

Paul Wellstone has rankled the ire of people in boht parties by sticking with what he believes. And while on many points I have disagreed with him, he was always true to those; he caused furor in his own party when he suggested a president should resign. He created furor in another party when he made suggestions that candidates were bought.

There is something to be said for true believers in their political ideals. Paul Wellstone was one of those. I listened this morning as Sam Brownback (R-KS) a staunch conservative, spoke about Paul Wellstone. Having known both men, one to a good deal, the other briefly, it was not a secret that while they disagreed on politics, they were good friends who enjoyed their political differences. Sam Brownback said what I thought this morning: the left has lost something that is growing scarce in both parties: people who truly believe in their vision of the future.
 

Walt N

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This is very sad news. My heart goes out to the Senator's friends and family.
I hate to be the voice of dissent among other aviation professionals here, but I'd have to agree with the assertion that general aviation is not terribly safe relative to other forms of transportation. I think those who might embark on GA flights should know the risks and take them as they see fit. Unfortunately the numbers do bear some scrutiny and consideration since they're not as rosy as is widely believed.
Scheduled Part 121 commercial *jet* airline transportation is in fact statistically safer than driving, but general aviation is roughly 20 times as dangerous (per given hour) as driving. More bad news... even if one does travel on a commercial jet, once you land at your hub airport and get on a turboprop regional airliner to your final destination you are now engaging in an activity that is statistically 4 times more dangerous per hour than driving. http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/safety
To be frank, I try to dissuade friends and family members from taking general aviation (Part 91 or Part 135) transportation (especially piston powered) when given the opportunity as I've lost far too many friends and aquaintances in general aviation accidents. More than I've lost in auto accidents over the last 16 years since I started flying. It's one thing to assume the risk as the pilot who's out for fun, training, convenience or whatever, but I feel that those who go along for the ride don't always know exactly what they're getting into. I'm a pilot for a major airline and like most major carriers, our pilot contract forbids our company to use general aviation sources to deadhead pilots to outstation assignments. We don't think it's safe. Of course we'll all tell you it's perfectly safe if WE'RE doing the flying.;) Nevertheless this is the policy, however putting us in a Super Shuttle or limousine is allowable as we've deemed them statistically "safe enough". (In actual practice we almost always ride on an airline ticket.)
According to preliminary reports, Wellstone's plane flew into an area of freezing rain. I agree that it's way too early to attempt to reach conclusions, but that's a heck of a smoking gun if correct as freezing rain presents one of the greatest hazards to aviation and can bring down an airplane quite rapidly. Even if equipped with de-ice and anti-ice devices. Another report stated that the aircraft seemed to veer from it's approach course. That could be a navigational error but would also not be unusual for an aircraft out of control. Reports that the wings had seperated from the fuselage before impact would suggest an aircraft that had been overstressed during attempts at regaining control. Unfortunately, airplanes with de-icing boots like this King Air had are much less capable of handling severe icing conditions than are jets with heated wing surfaces. We'll have to wait and see what the NTSB finds for any real answers, if there are any to be had at all. It's awfully hard to prove icing as an accident cause since the evidence usually melts before the wreckage is discovered.
Sorry for going off on a tangent here, I know many of you are personally affected by this tragedy and I didn't mean to take the focus off the main topic.
 

Philip_G

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Depending on the statisitcs (and their source) generally AOPA's nall report is very reliable, but GA is somewhere around slightly more dangerous than automobiles, but business aviation is much safer, and as walt said, your average commercial operater is much much much safer statistically. Wellstone falls into the business aviation group, I'm sure the NBAA has stats on their website, but consider the source.
you also have to weigh the accidents versus accidents with fatalities, while you're less likely to get INTO an accident in an aircraft, you're many times more likely to die in the accident in an aircraft (duh)
I actually had a lenghty discussion of safety statistics but edited it out after the fact to keep on topic, Oh well. This is more interesting ;)
I'm unfamiliar with the de-ice/anti ice systems on the king air, but would assume it was pretty good, we had one in our hangar for awhile that appeared to have full boots and hot props.
I am not fortunate enough to be operating an A/C equipped for known icing, are they reccomending deploying boots after a certain thickness of ice has built up, or have they moved to deploying boots as soon as ice is detected?
I'm not sure where this town is in MN, but up here all week it's been PRIME icing conditions, freezing level at or within a few thousand feet of the ground and low LOW IFR ceilings.
so far not much from the NTSB, the preliminary report is here
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...25X05386&key=1
 

Peter Kim

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Chris, you spoke so eloquently to the heart of the matter...why Paul Wellstone had endeared himself so much to so many, why so many respected him greatly despite political ideology. In the world's most elite group, he was truly unique. It takes supreme courage to maintain your integrity in the face of overwhelming adversity.
I've watched news of other political figures tragic loss of life and the subsequent grieving...it's been a long time since I've seen as much outpouring of sincere, heartbroken emotions.
Philip, Buzz, and Walt...fascinating stuff. Walt, given your background and level of expertise, I'll reconsider my flying habits. In the past, I never gave it a 2nd thought when I travelled commercial jet and complete my travel from a hub in a turboprop. Screw the extra dollars in savings, I'll try and fly nonstop.
You've also got a point about flying the plane yourself vs. being a passenger. One's inifinitely more fun, exhilerating. Although I loved it, riding backseat in a Piper Super Cub quickly wore off its sheen. Especially with the Red Barons that invariably scared the shit out of me...damn cropdusters. ;)
 

Walt N

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Peter, I don't think I'd call flying in a regional airliner unsafe, just in comparison to driving and I should stress again, the comparison I referenced is hour vs. hour spent in transit. Considering how little time the average person is likely to spend riding on a regional turboprop, statistically the risk is very tiny and in an average lifetime much smaller than an automobile poses to the average traveler. On the other hand, smaller general aviation flying would be something to which I would (and do) limit my exposure as a passenger.

The aircraft that Senator Wellstone and his group flew on was a chartered flight, and safety-wise they tend to fall in between scheduled regional airline ops and light aircraft general aviation. It does seem we lose quite a few political candidates, musicians, and notable others to this particular form of charter transportation, but that's surely because these folks rely upon and spend far more time on chartered flights than most. More hours spent, more risk.

Philip, I haven't flown a turboprop in a few years but when as left my last regional airline job we were getting away from the idea of waiting for ice to form to a 3/4" thickness in favor of using timed automatic boot inflation. For many years it was thought that premature wing boot deployment could cause "ice bridging", but the FAA has made recent statements that this is nothing but an old wives tale. I'm guessing this somewhat new info hasn't quite caught up to most IFR training manuals and the FAA written tests, but apparently no single case of ice bridging has actually ever been documented. In any case though, wing de-ice boots have definite limitations and become less and less effective as the aircraft slows and extends flaps for landing.
 

Philip_G

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I had been taught both ways, with no experience I was curious if bridging happens, I would think the ice would shed even if it did bridge, but would prefer not to find out the hard way :)
I thought I heard something about raytheon going back and changing the procedures in some POH's to reflect the recent thinking on the matter, but it's all hearsay.
oh well, the way regionals are going it's very possible I'll go directly to a regional jet with hotwings, though I think the CRJ has boots and oddly enough has no tail anti ice, at least on the early ones.
speaking of boots and airspeed, I recall reading of an L10-11 that crashed due to icing while in holding because the holding speed was too low for the boots to shed the ice propperly, I'm guessing with a higer AOA the ice builds too far down on the LE to shed?
 

Walt N

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speaking of boots and airspeed, I recall reading of an L10-11 that crashed due to icing while in holding because the holding speed was too low for the boots to shed the ice propperly, I'm guessing with a higer AOA the ice builds too far down on the LE to shed?
Yes, and on the underside of the wing. The L-1011 has hot wings but something similar to what you describe did happen in the Roselawn crash with a ATR-72. The wing boots were modified on all ATR's after that. FWIW I've popped a hell of a lot of ice off of wings using pneumatic boots but I've never seen anything remotely like the elusive "ice bridging" phenomenon.
 

Philip_G

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hehe, an ex CFI of mine is a FO on the dash 8, I guess those massive props make quite a racket when the shed ice, usually directly against the aircraft :D *THUD*
do I really want to do it, well I'm hosed now because I'm graduating in Dec. and already have the debt in student loans racked up, so I gotta do something ;) CFI'ing sure isn't gonna pay them back so I'm not sure I have a choice now anyway, with the market being what it is. I'm thinking I'll probably bump up to 1000-1200 PIC and a 100 or two multi and try to get right seat in business aviation somewhere, hell I'll fly weather mod, I'll test fly new A/C off the assy. line at raytheon (they're hiring, too) anything I can to make a living and stay "in the business" while times are tough I guess.
I wish we had more icing approved A/C around here, I never get any experience in NASTY Wx, it's always T storms, or the freezing level is too low to get some good actual. I'm finishing up my CFII, how in the hell am I supposed to teach instrument students with less than 5 hours of actual?!? It's already snowed up here a little bit and hasn't been out of the 30's for a few weeks :frowning:
sucks about the preflight, try crawling around on the ramp to check the gear on a PA28 when it's -20 outside, then you'll know my hell. At least you get to walk upright lol.
 

Philip_G

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Ah, but then you have to look at the part 135 statistics as you're not in GA any longer :)
 

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