See, cables do matter!!! (Yeah right) (1 Viewer)

[John Garcia]

And I would too...

 

[Brad_Harper]

Mix the copper with whatever material you want. So long as the copper is of high enough content to conduct electricity the signal will have the same shape comming out of the wire as it did going in. The magnitude of the signal could be smaller due to resistance but the shape of the waveform will be the same. Wire cannot change a signals shape! So the bright, dull, warm or whatever sound you are hearing is not due to the type of conductor used. Now a lot of you are going to say I tried it out and you're wrong.

Do the little test I explained in my above post with the sine wave. If the waveform on the output of the $20 cable looks the same as the one on the $20000 cable then there will be no difference in sound. How can there be? The waveforms are identical.

Break in is a lot of made up fantasy as well. The wire molecules don't change over time. Copper does not change into another element. It does not gain the ability to conduct better. The only thing that may happen is that copper will tarnish if exposed. This will increase the resistance of the wire. I suggest to anyone looking to buy a super expensive piece of wire that they spend $20 on an electrical physics book first. It is a much better investment.

 

[BrianAe]

OK, I'll comment on the Jewel thing. The reviewer was saying that he could tell that she was singing while on her knees in part of the song and then got back up. I thought about it for a second and realized that if in fact that were true, she was probably holding the microphone in which case you wouldn't be able to hear it at all. Even if she was using a mic stand, I don't think you could hear any difference except for maybe a change in volume.

Back to cables...

I am sceptical of high end cables but am not completely ruling them out. I've heard some on a couple high end systems but have never done a test swapping cables.

What I know for a fact though is that there is no difference in sound quality produced by digital interconnects, period. Robert and Scott, do you agree in this regard or not? I ask this because most high end cable proponents I know acknowledge that assuming you have a quality connection, all digital connections are the same.

As for breaking in a cable, someone please explain to me the reasoning/science behind it.

 

[Nathan Stohler]

Check out this bad boy:

Super Duper Cable Cooker

 

[Brad_Harper]

I am in the wrong business. I could be building these and milking the public for every dollar. $700 for a dressed up signal generator. I am waiting for the liquid nitogen encasing kit. Turns all wires into super conductors. Improves imaging and tonal balance

 

[Scott_N]

Brian

As far as digital cables are concerned I really can't say because I haven't auditoned any against each other. Now as far as testing cables or any other audio component goes the only equipment I need is my ears which I use everyday not lab equipment, slide rules etc...

 

[BrianAe]

Great find Nathan!

From the AudioDarmha web site:

Although it is not yet fully understood scientifically...QUOTE]

That says it all. There isn't much technical in that technical discussion.

 

[Chu Gai]

Dealer: Psst, kid...yeah you, roll down your window.
Customer: Hey don't I know you?
Dealer: Yeah, I used to work at Ultimate Audio, I sold you that system.
Customer: Oh yeah, it's really great, thanks!
Dealer: Still using those crap cables from Radio Fish Shack?
Customer: Um...yeah, what's wrong with them?
Dealer: Well I've got these ummmm...really hot cables. They're made with this real pure virgin copper, just like that babe standing on the corner.
Customer: Are virgin cables better?
Dealer: Yeah, they make your soundstage better.
Customer: I like my soundstage.
Dealer: They make your system more musical.
Customer: Sounds good to me the way it is.
Dealer: They improve the definition of your system. Your CD's will sound better.
Customer: Hmmmm...how much?
Dealer: $750, but seeing as you bought from me before, $500.
Customer: That's still a lot, how can I be sure?
Dealer: Look, I'm a dealer. I've got tons of satisfied customers. I've been in this business for 30 years, I know my stuff.
Customer: Ummm, I'm not sure.
Dealer: I'll give you proof that my virgin copper cables are the real deal...Hey Trixie, come over here. Psst, dude, you got $50?
Customer: Well, yeah. Why?
Dealer: Trixie here is gonna show you how a virgin can give you a liquid midrange. Give me the $50. If you're satisfied, I'll take off the $50 from the cables and sell them to you for $450. Deal?
Customer: Sounds good! How will I know if my midrange is liquid?
Dealer: Trust me...Trixie always gives a liquid midrange...You'll know it...Cya in 5 minutes buddy

 

[John Garcia]

I have to disagree with this. I have tried out some cheap optical ($9!) vs $100 optical, and there is a noticable difference, but then we are talking pastic vs glass cable. Having worked in fiber optics, I can tell you optical cables are not as simple and straight forward as they seem.

I have also compared various levels of coaxial cable, which are more like an audio interconnect than optical is, and I could definitely tell the difference ($40 vs $150).

How could there be a difference? There will be, the question really is, do you care and are you willing to pay for the potentially very subtle differences? If you want a big difference in sound, I'd invest that money in speakers first, then good amplification, and somewhere down the road start looking at cables. I am using all Audioquest interconnects in both of my systems.

 

[Chester II]

Dudes,

lol

Dudes,

Chester

 

[scott_ae]

Someone please show me a double-blind test report proving that people, listening to music, can correctly identify cable differneces.

I don't think one exists.


You may want to check out:

vxm.com/21R.64.html

 

[BrianAe]

John,

Please explain how cables for digital interconnects can make a difference? The reliable and complete transportation of digital data is simple. If the 9 dollar cable sends the same series of 1s and 0s between component a and b with just as much reliability as the 100 dollar cable (which it does) and if speed isn't a factor (which it isn't), then what's the difference?

Another way of looking at it is to to notice that there aren't really different types of cat5 or usb cables floating around. Now, it is true that a fiber network is faster then a copper one (even though almost no systems can make use of the extra bandwidth), but you don't see companies plunking down lots of money for expensive "oxygen free, blah blah, insert other special feature" copper wire for their networks.

 

[WilliamMc]

Cables can make a small difference if using the freebies that come with dvd playes. It would be desirable to use cables with good connectors, decent gauge wire, and proper shielding. A $20 to 30$ cable (pair) should have all these qualities. Any more and your just helping a CEO get that new swimming pool.

I see that audio fanatics now debate how various audio racks alter the sound of the equipment. Can anyone tell me how much burn in time an audio rack needs? I would think that 2 or 3 hundred hours would be fine!

 

[John Garcia]

I go with what my ears hear, not what the logic says. The transmission of 1s and 0s is NOT a perfect capability, reliably being the key word. Over any given length of cable, there is some error/degradation in the signal JUST as there is with an analog signal, though it is far less with digital. Coax cables will have a more noticable effect.

We are not talking about your USB mouse cord, which is not a digital signal, and which is not meaningfully affected by signal loss. We are talking about sound, and sound IS influenced by everything it passes through until it comes out of the speaker, regardless of digital or analog. Digital cables have less of an effect than most anything else, but I am telling you from my own personal experience, since I am, in fact a skeptic as well, that I could hear the difference. I had a friend comment that my system sounded noticably different (he is a PA sound system engineer) and asked what had changed. He was surprised to find that the one and only change was the coax cable.

This is directly correlated to the quality of the cables compared, IMO. I went and bought them JUST to see if I could tell the difference. If I heard the difference, I kept the cable. I have returned various cables after comparing them and finding no difference as well.

Audioquest's commentary on a cable's influence, including digital, is that with higher quality materials and construction, the cable is not ADDING anything, it is simply not stripping anything AWAY that was already there.

I believe Transparent Audio's philosophy summed it up well to me: We don't think you should use cables to "tweak" your system, the cables should be designed in such a way as to allow the least alteration of the original signal". IOW, cables are one of the last things to consider in a system.

Again, I will say what I always say regarding this subject: If you don't hear the difference, then there is no point in buying the more expensive product.


This is simply not true. If this sort of logic were true, we would all be wearing the same clothes and driving the same car. Am I to guess that there is no difference between a solid state amp and a tube amp? No difference between vinyl and CD?

I am not trying to force anyone to believe what I do, I am merely stating my opinion.

You have to take into account the listener as well. Not everyone hears the same, nor does everyone have the same experience with listening for very subtle details. I have been working with audio gear for the better part of my life, because I love music.

 

[NickSo]

Did anybody else see that this was just a can of worms beggin to be opened from the beginning? Why bother going down this road again by starting this thread that you KNOW will bring some heated debate on the subject?

As Chester II said...
Dudes...

 

[Travis Cain]

One of the engineers for McIntosh proved years ago through blind tests that speaker wire doesn't make a bit of difference, assuming you have the proper gauge. He had the exotics vs. standard lamp cord. Resistance is all that is a factor which is determined by the gauge and the length of the run. That's right, blind tests and NO ONE could detect the exotic wire that so many people claim made such a difference.

Interconnects on the other hand CAN make a difference whether it be from the quality of the connector or the shielding or what have you. I'd be pretty surprised though if anyone could tell the difference in a blind test between a quality 30-50 dollar interconnect and a 300-500+ dollar interconnect.

For digital signals, I have heard that with a coaxial digital connection, some hum can be transferred, thus degrading sound, but that sounds more to me like a flawed receiver/preamp somehow passing that hum to the output stage. As I've never wasted my time with coax digital, I don't have any real experience to speak from.

For optical connections, I am in shock that someone could actually beleive there is a difference. As a previous poster said, it's all 1's and 0's. Only an idiot would beleive that somehow an expensive cable would make the 1's and 0's be better at the other end. To the guy that said he replaced one and could tell a difference, maybe you just happened to have a bad one with a kink, or a speck of dust at one end or something. No don't tell me, let me guess.. You have deeper bass and clearer highs with the new cable. Give me a break.

Oh and whoever said that USB is not a digital signal? What are you on? USB is basically a network type. Oh wait, let me see, when we transfer a file over USB the computer takes all those bytes of data and converts it to an analog signal?? Like the old days of using casettes to save files on before floppy drives came down in price. Yeah and digital cameras that use a usb interface, they convert all the digital pictures to an analog signal before sending it to the computer. Any other absurd statements?

Once someone lays down hard earned cash on a product, it's like their brain won't allow them to beleive anything other than the marketing hype they paid for. And, unfortunately, that's usually all they're paying for.

 

[Robert Cowan]

to all the cable non-belivers:

i sure as hell hope none of you believe in god, because this would really shoot your arguement all to hell. i mean, give me an o-scope and prove god's existance could you?

just because something cant physically be measured does NOT mean it doesnt exist. plus, screw the o-scope, i use my ears.

 

[Ted Lee]

the only kind of breaking-in cables do is ... to ... your ... wallet!

thank you ... i'm here all week!

buy them and decide for yourself. is it really harder then that?

 

[Robert Cowan]

oh, and for the record, breaking in of cables refers to the dielectric becoming "charged". has NOTHING to do with the copper itself changing... that is why the new audioquest cables have a battery pack on them, to continually charge the dielectric.

 

[Chu Gai]

That's a fair question. I'll simply address the issue as to how it could. The digital cable connects two pieces of equipment, a source and a destination and as such becomes part of an electrical circuit. The source is going to send information which we can consider as 1's and 0's but they're pulses and hence have a particular shape. Call it a sharp edge if you will. Sometimes it happens that the source has problems driving the signal through a cable that has X amount of capacitance. Essentially, the source has poor or marginal current capability. Depending upon what the destination is, problems then arise because the rise times are no longer well defined. This can arise for a number of reasons...
1) a problem has developed
2) it's broken
3) it's poorly designed
#3 is quite likely to be found in your real hi-end, only a few made, whatevers. The reason is either engineering incompetence or they don't have the resources to do good R&D. Maybe that's the same thing. Spin it how you want.
If you recently bought it and actually experienced this, then either get it fixed or get your money back. If you're stuck with it, look for the lowest capacitance cable you can find and keep it short. Them's the breaks.

Do I think this is a problem for the vast vast vast majority of products? Nope. But it can happen and it's not the cable that you ought to be focussing your attention on, it's the equipment. Try and sell it on audiogon. They like that 'revealing' kind of stuff.