Scott Atwell Star Trek Discussion thread (Series and Films) (1 Viewer)

[Harry-N]

There was a sci-if network called Comet that is no longer available through my cable provider.

COMET is available to stream on your computer, too.

Watch COMET TV Live - Science Fiction Movies and Shows

www.comettv.com

 

[Nelson Au]

Just a quick post, I’m continuing my re-viewing of Star Trek Enterprise. I’m into the fourth season now. I’ve seen it quite a few times before, but I rarely watch the episode called Daedalus. I’d totally missed the little bit of insightin this episode that covers T’Pol’s arc where in the aftermath of the discovery of the Kir’Shara she is re-evaluating her Vulcan beliefs and studying the Kir’Shara texts. So it explains more the rift developing between T’Pol and Tripp.

I’m in the middle of the Klingon Augment arc, that was a fun way to explain the Klingon’s non-ridged forehead appearance to align with TOS.

I’ve also realized something about this season, it’s actually 2 episodes shorter then normal at 22. Not counting the final “ Love Letter to the fans“ episode, that makes it 21. I always felt this season was so shortchanged as it was developing some great episodes. You can see they are setting up the Romulan Wars.

 

[Sam Favate]

I’ve also realized something about this season, it’s actually 2 episodes shorter then normal at 22. Not counting the final “ Love Letter to the fans“ episode, that makes it 21. I always felt this season was so shortchanged as it was developing some great episodes. You can see they are setting up the Romulan Wars.

I love the fourth season of Enterprise. I'd put it up there with the best seasons of any Star Trek series. Yes, it was shorter than usual, and yes, the show was short-changed. It seems the decision to cancel was made after the fourth season renewal came and early in that season's production. It wasn't going to change, which is a shame because they really turned out an amazing year. If the show had been this focused from the beginning, they would have found their audience and continued for several more years. Part of the reason for the fourth season's success is Manny Coto, who did a great job as showrunner (much better than Brannon Braga, who was never up to the task, IMO) and part of the reason is that the suits from the network finally left them alone (no more stupid requests like "have a new band on every week") - but the suits staying out of it was the writing on the wall that the show was going to end.

 

[Harry-N]

That last half of the fourth season of STAR TREK: ENTERPRISE was a tough one for this fan, but only so because of the way that the "network" (UPN) buried the show amid all sorts of specials, sports, and schedule changes. I had just started "taping" the show direct to a hard drive DVD recorder that I'd gotten that year, and it was tough trying to even find the episodes on the schedule.

I never had a problem with that final episode, especially not to the degree that I read from other fans. Oh well, we all have our differences, but I never understood what in the world was so horrible about it. I guess I'm easy to please and look for the positives in life.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I never had a problem with that final episode, especially not to the degree that I read from other fans. Oh well, we all have our differences, but I never understood what in the world was so horrible about it. I guess I'm easy to please and look for the positives in life.

Yeah, I enjoyed it. At the time it seemed that it could very well be the end of all Trek, and certainly the end of the era that began with TNG, so I didn’t find anything in the show to be out of line. I was delighted to see Riker and Troi again. I wish they hadn’t killed Tripp but at the same time it’s such a standard series finale trope that it didn’t really stand out to me in any way other than “that’s what shows tend to do in their last episode”.

 

[Jason_V]

I'm just happy Trek lit retconned the entire Trip death crap.

There are worse episodes of Enterprise and the franchise than "These are the Voyages...," but I also 100% understand why the cast feels it's not "their" finale. Riker and Troi had their bows in "Nemesis", as terrible as that movie was. There was no need to shoehorn them into the finale, especially finding wiggle room during "The Pegasus" to have them both go hang out on the holodeck. They had nothing better to do in that episode...being stuck in an asteroid, Romulans breathing down their throats, an admiral trying to blackmail Riker...

This was therapy for Riker, in a way. The same way Barclay used the holodeck on many occasions as his therapy...and the senior staff all sneered at him. Barclay recreated members of the crew (which Riker, Geordi and Troi thought was ghastly)...Riker and Troi are creating the NX-01 crew (but it's fine for them).

 

[BobO'Link]

It wouldn't surprise me at all to find that Enterprise was truly cancelled *as* it was renewed for that 4th season with the 4th season only produced to create just enough episodes for syndication.

 

[joshEH]

The Rick Berman-era production crew had been working pretty constantly on Star Trek since TNG, so it was all one big continuous whole to them, and with the ENT-finale, they were looking at the end of that journey, so they wanted to look back on it and pay tribute to the whole. And that got in the way of recognizing that the idea they came up with didn't serve the specific series they were doing. And I think the fact that the show was cancelled earlier than they'd intended meant that they had to rush the finale and make some decisions in haste that didn't turn out well, like Trip's tacked-on and poorly justified death.

It's just the nature of series TV that you have to try things out on the fly and hope they work. Sometimes they work brilliantly, often they're just kind of okay, and sometimes they fail. It was ill fortune that the big failure in Season 4 happened to be the finale of the whole thing.

Finales are hard to get right, in any case. I'm not that fond of any of the planned Berman-era series finales, really. "All Good Things..." is supposed to be Q teaching Picard some deep lesson about existence, but it's just a bunch of nonsensical time-hijinks and technobabble, and the grand puzzle is ridiculously easy to solve. "What You Leave Behind" is an okay ending to the Dominion War, but they should've ended the war much sooner and devoted some time to the aftermath and recovery; and the whole climax of the Winn-Dukat-Sisko thing is dreadfully clumsy and ridiculous.

And "Endgame" is just weak. It flirts with going somewhere meaningful when Harry and the crew realize that the journey is more important than the destination, but then tosses that moral -- and its own plot-logic -- out the window when Janeway decides there's a way to defeat the Borg and get home at the same time, even though the situation had been set up to make those mutually-incompatible goals. And it just ends too abruptly with no real resolution.

I would agree that "These Are the Voyages..." is the worst of the four, but none of the intentional TNG/DS9/VOY series finales are all that good, frankly. For that matter, even the unintentional finales -- "Turnabout Intruder" and "The Counter-Clock Incident" -- were among the worst their respective series had to offer. The Undiscovered Country perhaps notwithstanding, Star Trek just doesn't have much luck with endings.

 

[joshEH]

I'm just happy Trek lit retconned the entire Trip death crap.

Yup, the ENT novels' revelation that "These Are the Voyages..." was a Section 31-altered holoprogram was pretty much why the books were able to get away with it. They technically can't contradict what canon says, but strictly speaking, canon only says that history records Trip as having died that way. The fact that it was a simulation leaves that open to interpretation. Indeed, even on the TV show, we never actually see the moment of Trip's death; we see him rolled into the treatment-chamber, and then we see a scene of Archer and T'Pol talking about how he died. It seems that the ENT producers intentionally left themselves wiggle-room to bring him back if they got the opportunity...say, if the cancellation had been reversed at the last minute.

 

[Jason_V]

Yup, the ENT novels' revelation that "These Are the Voyages..." was a Section 31-altered holoprogram was pretty much why the books were able to get away with it. They technically can't contradict what canon says, but strictly speaking, canon only says that history records Trip as having died that way. The fact that it was a simulation leaves that open to interpretation. Indeed, even on the TV show, we never actually see the moment of Trip's death; we see him rolled into the treatment-chamber, and then we see a scene of Archer and T'Pol talking about how he died. It seems that the ENT producers intentionally left themselves wiggle-room to bring him back if they got the opportunity...say, if the cancellation had been reversed at the last minute.

Yes indeed. I'm about halfway through "Tower of Babel" in my Trek read through now...it's amazing the things these books do using the admittedly small sliver of daylight the series actually left them. Early Enterprise books were garbage. They expanded the universe for the show greatly and show what the show could have been if made a decade or so later for a streamer or cable network.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I loathed the Voyager finale - it felt artificial and anticlimactic. I didn’t like the way the resorted to a time travel dues ex machina - it just carried no dramatic weight for me. It also deprived us of the joy of seeing the characters we cared about for seven years getting to take their victory lap at home. For me it was the biggest letdown of the bunch because it was show where the idea of the finale had really been important from the very first episode - how will these people get home? And rather than it being teamwork and ingenuity and luck and knowledge gained from experience on their journey, it was some of the silliest time travel Trek has ever done. It just felt so disconnected from everything that preceded it.

The DS9 finale I thought was fine but not extraordinary. It wrapped up the story well and at least had a little time for character journeys but that whole show had been in many ways about the messiness of life and I thought going for the neatly wrapped bow was a little against the spirit of that.

The Enterprise finale works for me. It helps that the season wasn’t one long arc (and the last mini arc was fully resolved by that point) so I didn’t have the expectation that the episode needed to accomplish anything in particular. It was overly reliant on the standard television finale trope of “we’re never doing another episode so anything goes” but that’s what finales were like in those days for shows that actually got them.

The TNG finale remains my favorite. What makes it hold up for me after all this time is that while it doubles back to the first episode and seeks to wrap up the show, it doesn’t try to wrap up the rest of the lives of these characters. It wasn’t really about trying to change the status quo so much as it was acknowledging the characters and relationships that made the show worth tuning into each week. Another show might have promoted Picard to admiral and given Riker his own ship, turning it into a final mission when there had been nothing in the lead in episodes suggesting such a direction, and I’m glad this show didn’t do that. The great thing about that finale for me is that there’s nothing in it that then makes the idea of revisiting earlier episodes suddenly unpalatable. The only thing I dislike about the finale isn’t actually the finale at all, but rather, the way some people have incorrectly interpreted Q’s simulation of the future as actually being a set in stone future that does happen. Like the ending of Lost, some people have dug their heels in on an interpretation not supported by the episode, but I don’t blame the show itself for that.

 

[ScottRE]

It wouldn't surprise me at all to find that Enterprise was truly cancelled *as* it was renewed for that 4th season with the 4th season only produced to create just enough episodes for syndication.

I'm actually convinced that was the case. Paramount also reduced the cost it charged the network and also lowered the budget (the effects took a real hit) to make it possible. However, the best Star Trek never relied on effects to tell a good story and I loved year 4. It certainly turned out better than Airwolf's 4th season, which was also created to bring up the episode count for syndication.

The finale was....odd. I didn't have the same level of disgust as a lot of other fans, but it was weird. Even at the time, I had these observations:

1. If Riker had to have a crisis which demanded his visiting a holodeck recreation of the crew, have it take place on his own ship. Then we wouldn't all be noticing how much older and heavier both Riker and Troi had gotten between scenes of "The Pegasus."

2. Nobody on Enterprise got a promotion?

3. Trip's death was not only pointless and utterly out of character, it also didn't make a dent emotionally.

4. The montage at the end was the best part.

This would have been a great episode if it were a 2 hour finale with logical plotting, gravitas in losing Trip and making his sacrifice MEAN something to the outcome of the story and pushing Archer to really spearhead the formation of the UFP. Then, at the end, tie into Riker's crisis and state how much the crew's work made it possible for people like Riker to make a difference in the galaxy. I don't mind a flashback with the TNG crew in it, but have it show just how important Enterprise, the ship AND the series, was to the Trek universe. In the end, it was about Riker's problem, one we saw solved years earlier.

Enterprise was an under appreciated series. Say what you want about Berman Trek, but that was a great run of Star Trek, series you could sit down with and share with the entire family. That may not be important to a lot of people, but Star Trek was a family favorite in my house all my life. And 4 year old Scott never would have been allowed to watch Discovery.

 

[Sam Favate]

Another show might have promoted Picard to admiral and given Riker his own ship, turning it into a final mission when there had been nothing in the lead in episodes suggesting such a direction, and I’m glad this show didn’t do that.

If the show wasn’t moving to the big screen for more adventures, I think that’s exactly what would have happened.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Quite possibly, but fortunately it worked out as it did.

 

[Nelson Au]

I watched Bound last night where the Orion’s tried to take over the Enterprise. Kind of a goofy episode. But an interesting look at the Orion’s society.

There is the continuing thread of the Trip/T’Pol Relationship. There is one thing I found odd as I keep asking why they wrote T’Pol being so coy and human in how she keeps denying the day dreams and connection with Trip. But she finally confessing and explains the connection they have. I guess this human behavior is explained by her experience in the Expanse that’s lowered her ability to suppress her emotions. And her mother did say she’s always been emotional.

Next are the Mirror episodes. I’m torn about them. They are fun and done pretty well. Loved the recreation of the TOS era costumes and the Constitution class ship. But I found the cast as did the cast of DS9, over played the evil counterparts of their characters. I felt the TOS cast did it much better as it was more underplayed.

 

[Nelson Au]

It’s been some time since I’ve thought about the reasons for the fourth season’s existence, if it was to fill out the number of episodes to make a syndication package, that’s plausible. it certainly was a screwy time, I recall Scott Bakula discussing the issue was with the network at the time. The show wasn’t fitting into the same type of show the network was moving towards, IIRC. There was less and less support from Paramount themselves. The timing just wasn’t right for this series.

As far as disliking the finale or not, I have to admit I have not watched it in a looong time. Once or twice on the DVD set and never on the Blu Ray set. I suspect part of the reason I avoid it is from all the outcry against it from the fans. I have to agree it’s more about the TNG series then ENT and a slap against Enterprise. Watching it did feel odd as the Enterprise segments didn’t feel real. I also did not like Trip’s death. It’s like, What? If this episode is an Holodeck recreation, I’d like to think that given the events are maybe two hundred years in the past, the facts were not all right. So Trip did not die. And I have not read any of the novels, so I’m not familiar with what they did.

In reading your comments, I never thought of it as a nice bookend to the entire run of Berman era Star Trek shows ending it with where it started with the TNG story. On paper it sounds good, but the execution did not work for me. I think I will continue to skip it, I had considered watching it on this re-viewing, but I am not sure.

Just a quick story, because I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, I’m just a 45 minute flight to Los Angeles. On the night of the premiere of the finale, we heard of a viewing party going on at a hotel and the fans were invited to join. So after work that day, I hopped a flight to LA and met up with a friend who picked me up at the airport and we headed to the hotel. They were projecting the episode in a small room and the room was packed. I think there was a lot of the creative people there. It was so packed, we did not try to squeeze in the watch. So we hung out outside near the bar area. What was memorable is Mike Okuda came by and asked us where everyone was. That was very cool. Afterwards, my friend drove me by Paramount studios. We drove by the corner of the studio where the old RKO globe used to be on the roof in the 1930’s.

I knew the episode would be repeated over the weekend so I watched it then. And that’s how I remember the Star Trek Enterprise finale.

 

[Bryan^H]

I remember that card set, Bryan! I had them back in the day, though I'm not sure I had those three in particular.

So much money spent on cards in the 1990s....

Quite a coincidence that all three cards are from my "top 10" Star Trek TOS episodes too. All from one box, figure the odds.

 

[Osato]

Many levels of wow here….

Preview Of 4K Remastered ‘Star Trek: The Motion Picture’ Director’s Edition Reveals A New Level Of Detail

More indications that this is far more than a 4K upgrade.

trekmovie.com

 

[Nelson Au]

Thanks Osato. There’s a few items in that story that raises questions for me. I know the team doing the work will do the right things.

First question though is why does the article say they are creating a new color grade? The recently remastered 4K Star Trek The Motion Picture from Paramount does have a new color grade and it looks great! So I wonder if the article just means the Directors Edition is using that same color grade and the new effects shots will match that. Maybe it’s just poorly worded in the article.

The other question that came to mind is the shot shown of the Enterprise in Earth orbit after it left Spacedock. The image looks great! The text in the article reads like they took each element in that shot, the Enterprise, the Earth and the sun and recomposited it in the digital realm. The shot looks impressive in that I see no matte lines around the Enterprise like it originally looked. So my impression is they are going a lot further now then they did 20 years ago. Obviously they have the digital tools to do that now with greater ease. But are they exceeding the original directive? The original directive was to add the effects shots that were not possible to include in 1979 due to the time constraint to meet the December 7th release date. Now it appears they are recompositing the original effects shots too. So will the three Klingon ships at the start of film also loose the matte lines?

I’m not sure what to think. Is this crossing a line into replacing all the effects shots with improved shots using the original filmed elements? Maybe that’s OK as long as they don’t replace all the miniatures with digital models. I guess we’ll have to wait and see. I’m interested to learn what they are actually doing and look forward to seeing the new Directors Edition.

 

[Nelson Au]

Guys, I just finished the second to last episode of Enterprise, Terra Prime. So I think I’ll stop here and skip the final episode. I still can’t muster the enthusiasm to watch it. Maybe the last minute with the montage is worth a peek. I have not seen that in years.

I’m sort of sad to see this come to an end again. So much promise cut short. There’s something comforting watching the legacy shows verses the new Trek. Perhaps that feeling that the shows are connected to the past will return with the premiere of These Are the Voyages. I like the new shows. But maybe it will take a few years before they feel like they are part of the legacy.