Scott Atwell Star Trek Discussion thread (Series and Films)

Nelson Au

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Hey guys, I haven’t been staying up on current events, so maybe you guys have seen this very well done Deep Fake rendering of the young William Shatner, Leonard Nimoy and DeForest Kelley with live action scenes taken from Star Trek 2009.


If there was ever a reason to try to get Shatner into a new Star Trek project, this might be a way If he needed to young.
 
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ScottRE

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Do you recall which episodes had the electric violin version?
I'm of the mind that the first 5 aired episodes had it. The DVDs put them on the first ten episodes in production order, but The Corbomite Maneuver and Balance of Terror never aired with the Courage arrangement. Marc Cushman (I know) says the first 9 aired episodes had it, but that number always seemed high to me. I've heard people say 5 and 7. For certain, the first 3 aired episodes did. It was recorded in time to slap it on The Naked Time and The Enemy Within before airing, but if they were already in the can, they probably wouldn't have gone back to plug in the new theme. This is obviously just a guess, but I am reasonably sure those two episodes carried it. Going back to my laserdiscs, the Enterprise "woosh" is different in Miri and What Are Little Girls Made Of? Instead of the full-bodied sound we heard for most of the season, Miri sounded like a brush against a cymbal. What Are Little Girls Made Of? has the usual sound but is lower in volume, as if they were still playing with the right mix.

Most telling is Mudd's Women. The Steiner theme is on the Laserdisc prints but Leonard Nimoy's credit is missing the "also starring." As this is an artifact of the original airing, that means Paramount would have had to go back and lay new audio over the existing credits. Yes, they did that for the end credits, but why bother doing this for the opening of one episode when they could just pop in the same piece of film they used for the other episodes? I'm not saying it's impossible, but it feels unlikely (unless there was some kinda legal thing going on). What puts a monkey wrench in that is the "woosh" which sounds like the later version. So, yeah, it's possible they wanted to keep the Nimoy credit as it was but standardize the sound. But then the first two episodes had different credits as well: no "starring" or "also starring" and with Roddenberry's "created by" up front, but they dropped those for the post 1984 syndication. This is getting really complex, so maybe the "woosh" sound levels don't have anything to do with it at all... I'm just looking for clues. The point is that it's not uniform on some of the episodes included in Cushman's 9 and they would be if Paramount just cut in the same opening titles after the fact.

Still, for completeness sake, The Man Trap, Charlie X, The Enemy Within and The Naked Time, the "woosh" is the same as the later episodes. Where No Man Has Gone Before, of course, is out of consideration because they didn't alter that episode for syndication (and there is no narration or sound effects at all).

I also don't know if it's worth mentioning, but watching these episodes closely, there's a shift in contrast from the fade out of the teaser to The Naked Time into the opening titles, as if it came from another - slightly brighter - episode. Where No Man Has Gone Before and Mudd's Woman both go into the opening titles without any change in picture quality.

With all that in mind, until something more definitive is found, like a memo from Bob Justman or notes by the music editing team, I am fairly certain the electric violin theme was the following episodes:

The Man Trap
Charlie X
Where No Man Has Gone Before
The Naked Time
The Enemy Within

with the possibility of Mudd's Women.

EDIT: going back into a discussion on the Trek BBS message board, I learned the dubbing on Mudd's Women was completed before the Steiner theme was recorded, so that episode must have had the Courage arrangement. So Paramount redubbed the opening credits for the 80's prints. The Enemy Within still had not been locked in and it is possible that episode had the Steiner them, but I'm not comfortable with that. :D
 
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Neil S. Bulk

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The Man Trap
Charlie X
Where No Man Has Gone Before
The Naked Time
The Enemy Within

with the possibility of Mudd's Women.
This makes sense. I haven't seen any documentation that locks in when dubs were completed, but I have notes from a schedule for season 1. It has some early plans that were changed ("Mudd's Women" airing the week before "The Enemy Within" for instance) but its plan for scoring is pretty intact with how the recordings went.

It schedules the dub for "Mudd's Women" on September 12 and 13 with "The Enemy Within" on September 19 and 20. This is after "Music Cut In" sessions for both on September 8 and 15, respectively. Now again, this is a schedule and not when things were actually completed and we know those two aired in a different sequence than intended on this schedule, but the key dates are before the Steiner cello arrangement was recorded.

"What Are Little Girls Made Of?" is next on here and schedules the scoring session for September 21, but they wound up recording that partial score and the revised titles on the 20. Since the titles and episode were recorded at the same session, it makes the most sense to me, that this episode is the first to have the Steiner arrangement.
 

Nelson Au

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I found that Memory Alpha’s episode listing very handy. And if you click on the Airdate column on top or production number column on top, the list will change to show airdate order or production order.

Maybe you can copy and paste the list to print.

 

Wiseguy

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I'm of the mind that the first 5 aired episodes had it. The DVDs put them on the first ten episodes in production order, but The Corbomite Maneuver and Balance of Terror never aired with the Courage arrangement. Marc Cushman (I know) says the first 9 aired episodes had it, but that number always seemed high to me. I've heard people say 5 and 7. For certain, the first 3 aired episodes did. It was recorded in time to slap it on The Naked Time and The Enemy Within before airing, but if they were already in the can, they probably wouldn't have gone back to plug in the new theme. This is obviously just a guess, but I am reasonably sure those two episodes carried it. Going back to my laserdiscs, the Enterprise "woosh" is different in Miri and What Are Little Girls Made Of? Instead of the full-bodied sound we heard for most of the season, Miri sounded like a brush against a cymbal. What Are Little Girls Made Of? has the usual sound but is lower in volume, as if they were still playing with the right mix.

With all that in mind, until something more definitive is found, like a memo from Bob Justman or notes by the music editing team, I am fairly certain the electric violin theme was the following episodes:

The Man Trap
Charlie X
Where No Man Has Gone Before
The Naked Time
The Enemy Within

with the possibility of Mudd's Women.
If I were asked back in 1977 I could tell you immediately, but time has dimmed memory and other things, but I can definitely state with 99.98% certainty that "The Enemy Within" did not have the violin theme. And "Mudd's Women" definitely did. The only other one that I think did have the violin theme that's not on your list was "Dagger of the Mind" but I can't be sure now. Did the original Paramount VHS tapes circa 1985-89 have the originally broadcast opening? Doesn't anybody still have these? I have a couple but for none of the questioned episodes.
 
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ScottRE

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If I were asked back in 1977 I could tell you immediately, but time has dimmed memory and other things, but I can definitely state with 99.98% certainty that "The Enemy Within" did not have the violin theme. And "Mudd's Women" definitely did. The only other one that I think did have the violin theme that's not on your list was "Dagger of the Mind" but I can't be sure now. Did the original Paramount VHS tapes circa 1985-89 have the originally broadcast opening? Doesn't anybody still have these? I have a couple but for none of the questioned episodes.
I have the entire series on the officially released VHS and Laserdisc sets and these were all done after the standardization of the theme. Off air recordings prior to that would be most helpful or if anyone has 16mm prints.

See, this is why I’m not counting memories as a good source because I’m just as certain I remember The Enemy Within having the original arrangement of the theme on the WVIA 44 prints which were run just before the change. But I could be totally wrong, so there ya go.

Someone out in the world has to have some 16mm prints or cassette tapes of pre 1980’s broadcasts. I suppose the original films are in the vaults intact, but unless Paramount wants to do an accurate release, that’s where they’re gonna stay.
 

KPmusmag

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I found that Memory Alpha’s episode listing very handy. And if you click on the Airdate column on top or production number column on top, the list will change to show airdate order or production order.

Maybe you can copy and paste the list to print.


I was able to drop this info in Excel so that it can be sorted by episode number or airdate or even stardate (although some stardates are unknown). Production # does not really sort as they changed the format of those numbers each season, but that seems to not be an issue as episode number appears to correlate to prod #. I made it printable on one 8x11 sheet of paper.

I am happy to share it, but not sure the best way. Is there any kind of document repository on this site?
 
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ScottRE

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I remember seeing "The Menagerie, part 2" on WPIX when we got our satellite dish in Christmas 1984 (before they started using the Paramount-supplied versions) and I notice it was in really, really bad shape. Perhaps they were still using the really old prints and never got the re-struck 1978 ones?

Looks like we're about the same age (I was 10 in 1979).
I was watching Dagger of the Mind this weekend while comparing themes and I remembered how badly WPIX cut this one. Completely editing out the first mind meld (as it would be called eventually). This episode was totally gutted. Act 2 started with McCoy talking to Kirk over the intercom about Van Gelder and act 3 picks up with Kirk and Helen at the Neural Neutralizer - after all of the meld stuff was over. When I first saw this one uncut, I was shocked at what was missing previously. I didn't even know about the meld scene until I readit in the Star Trek Compendium.
 

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Today's the 33rd anniversary of The Next Generation on TV. I confess that while I watched the premiere, I didn't become a regular viewer until the third season, when I found the show so good that I just couldn't miss a moment. Over the next year or so, I managed to see all I'd missed from seasons 1 and 2, and to my surprise, there were a lot of great things in there. Season 3 remains my favorite year of TNG, and overall, I loved the show.

Thinking back, it was a pretty bold move to have an all-new cast on board a new Enterprise. It was a brilliant move that paved the way for the various incarnations of Star Trek we have seen since.
 

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I didn't even know about the meld scene until I readit in the Star Trek Compendium.
There were often stills during the end credits of scenes that were cut. I remember seeing the still of McCoy in the corridor of the Tantalus colony and wondering where it came from. It was cut from all the prints i watched before I got the VHS.
vlcsnap-2020-09-29-20h18m53s095.png
 

ScottRE

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There were often stills during the end credits of scenes that were cut. I remember seeing the still of McCoy in the corridor of the Tantalus colony and wondering where it came from. It was cut from all the prints i watched before I got the VHS.
View attachment 79355
Yes! Same here. I feel like this episode really got gouged, but they all did to fit the time slots. I want to see if I can recreate an old cut just for giggles
 

Museum Pieces

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Yes! Same here. I feel like this episode really got gouged, but they all did to fit the time slots. I want to see if I can recreate an old cut just for giggles
In my neck of the woods, this one really got hacked as well. I always thought the episode started with the line, "Tantalus cargo ready to beam up," at about 1:25. I thought that was the beginning of the episode for years and years. I suppose as cuts go, that one makes a lot more sense than cutting the mind meld scene. Wow.
 

Wiseguy

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There were often stills during the end credits of scenes that were cut. I remember seeing the still of McCoy in the corridor of the Tantalus colony and wondering where it came from. It was cut from all the prints i watched before I got the VHS.
That's not always the case. In the book "The Nitpicker's Guide for Classic Trekkers" author Phil Farrand lists the stills used at the end of each episode and identifies what episode it came from. But in some cases the still couldn't be found in the uncut episode and in some cases it was seen differently. For example:

The first shot of the Enterprise approaching a blue planet at the end of "Miri" and "Operation: Annihilate!" couldn't be identified.

At the end of several episodes, including "The Squire of Gothos" and "The Gamesters of Triskelion" the shot of the lawmakers from "The Return of the Archons" wasn't in the episode. The "Archons" episode itself also shows this still.

At the end of "This Side of Paradise" the shot of Kirk and Spock from "Errand of Mercy."

At the end of "The Deadly Years" the shot of the Tellarite in front of a red curtain (presumably from "Journey to Babel).

At the end of "The Deadly Years" and "The Way to Eden" the empty jail set from "Bread and Circuses."

At the end of "The Deadly Years" and "Assignment: Earth" the lithium-cracking station from "Where No Man Has Gone Before" is shown reversed.

At the end of "A Piece of the Action" the fortress on Rigel VII was seen in "The Cage"/"The Menagerie" but with Pike standing in front of it. This still was apparently later used as Flint's castle in "Requiem for Methuselah."

At the end of "The Immunity Syndrome" and "By Any other Name" the android body from "Return to Tomorrow." Footage where this still originated can be seen in one of the blooper collections.

At the end of "A Private Little War" the shot of the Tellarite in front of a wall (presumably from "Journey to Babel).

At the end of "The Tholian Web" and "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" the still of the aged Uhura from "And the Children Shall Lead" is shown but in the episode the shot is seen in a mirror.

At the end of "Wink of an Eye" and "All Our Yesterdays" the shot of engineering from "The Enemy Within."
 
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Wiseguy

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I have the entire series on the officially released VHS and Laserdisc sets and these were all done after the standardization of the theme. Off air recordings prior to that would be most helpful or if anyone has 16mm prints.

See, this is why I’m not counting memories as a good source because I’m just as certain I remember The Enemy Within having the original arrangement of the theme on the WVIA 44 prints which were run just before the change. But I could be totally wrong, so there ya go.

Someone out in the world has to have some 16mm prints or cassette tapes of pre 1980’s broadcasts. I suppose the original films are in the vaults intact, but unless Paramount wants to do an accurate release, that’s where they’re gonna stay.
That's correct as far as it goes. But I've seen these episodes so often in the 1974-78 period that I just KNOW that "The Enemy Within" did not have the violin theme. I don't know if every broadcast was from the same print or if the episodes rotated among stations. It's just possible since these episodes were able to be edited by the stations perhaps they substituted one theme for another. Have no idea why.

On another note, I found an audio recording of a part of "Mudd's Women" with the closing theme and it is definitely the violin theme. Perhaps I can find other audio evidence.
 
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B-ROLL

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That's correct as far as it goes. But I've seen these episodes so often in the 1974-78 period that I just KNOW that "The Enemy Within" did not have the violin theme. I don't know if every broadcast was from the same print or if the episodes rotated among stations. It's just possible since these episodes were able to be edited by the stations perhaps they substituted one theme for another. Have no idea why.

On another note, I found an audio recording of a part of "Mudd's Women" with the closing theme and it is definitely the violin theme. Perhaps I can find other audio evidence.
I can't say for certain but for I beleive that for shows that were syndicated on film the entire extant* series episode prints were provided to the station. The promos for the episodes were usally at the head of reel one with another slate and academy leader for the actual show after. Keep in mind that the last episode of the series might end on one day and the cycle would repeat again. Having the prints meant they could have something to air in case of a rainout (or "blackout" in case of there not being a sellour for a home game broadcast by a network) for a sporting event or issue with regular programming.

The exception might be if a station group (different cities/markets same owner) might only get one set of prints and the prints would be sent to the next station ...


Shows that were syndicated on tape were often "bicycled" with sets of tapes being sent usually by bus to the next city.



*Some shows such as Bonanza were still running new shows on the network when the show was syndicated.
 

BobO'Link

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I can't say for certain but for I beleive that for shows that were syndicated on film the entire extant* series episode prints were provided to the station. The promos for the episodes were usally at the head of reel one with another slate and academy leader for the actual show after. Keep in mind that the last episode of the series might end on one day and the cycle would repeat again. Having the prints meant they could have something to air in case of a rainout (or "blackout" in case of there not being a sellour for a home game broadcast by a network) for a sporting event or issue with regular programming.

The exception might be if a station group (different cities/markets same owner) might only get one set of prints and the prints would be sent to the next station ...


Shows that were syndicated on tape were often "bicycled" with sets of tapes being sent usually by bus to the next city.



*Some shows such as Bonanza were still running new shows on the network when the show was syndicated.
It was really dependent on the series and distributor as to whether or not the entire series would be kept in a local station's library. At the station where I worked, very few were kept on site. The only "library" films I recall were a huge Looney Tunes collection (which was thrown out while I was on vacation one year - I'd have salvaged them had I known). Almost everything else was "bicycled" in/out with, typically, a week's worth at a time going/coming. The copies, film early on and tape later, arrived at least 1 week prior to actual air. This gave the station time to check length of the program segments for commercial breaks and allowed for vagaries in shipping schedules. It wasn't until 3/4" U-Matic became a popular distribution method that the station I worked for kept a library of material. At that point they'd get an entire series and shelf it for later use.

If an emergency filler program was needed that station had a few "library" copies of various TV show episodes and movies. Never more than one or two each. You'd simply grab one that fit the time needed and throw it on in those situations.
 
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