Scott Atwell Star Trek Discussion thread (Series and Films)

BobO'Link

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Every year, I watch The Man Trap at 8:30 (EST). Usually the laserdisc print with period commercials edited in for effect. Not accurate but close enough to get the feel. Always a lot of fun.

Here are some period promos.

That first is quite interesting. That music is absolutely horrid though, even by 60s promo standards. It certainly doesn't help make you want to watch the series.
 

ScottRE

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That doesn't sound right to me. The first time this show was re-mixed was for the DVD releases which started coming out in 1999.
Actually there were minor changes to the sound mix. Just as an example, the sound effect of the phaser rifle hitting the rocks off screen in “Where No Man Has Gone Before” is dailed so far down on the VHS you can hardly hear it. The electric bolts between Dehner and Mitchell were lowered as well.

“The Man Trap” music in the finale as the creature died was also dialed down a lot.

The series wasn’t filmed in or originally broadcast in stereo but the tapes were mixed to be stereo. So there was a level of tweaking going on.

The changes weren’t extreme but they were done. And I’m not even taking about the standardization of the first season opening and closing credit music.

I’ll still take the VHS/Laserdisc sound mix over anything afterwards. It’s the closest we had to the original.
 

Neil S. Bulk

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The series wasn’t filmed in or originally broadcast in stereo...
Having cut all of the music material for this show, I'm aware of that. :)

...but the tapes were mixed to be stereo. So there was a level of tweaking going on.
This is the first I've heard of them being stereo. And they certainly weren't stereo on the Laser Discs I used as reference on that project, and those were the same masters as the VHS tapes. The only re-mix I know of was "The City On The Edge Of Forever" but the packaging stated that. The packaging didn't indicate on any of those video releases they were stereo and in that era, stereo re-mixes weren't often done. Yes, there were exceptions, but I've never heard of Star Trek being re-mixed to stereo in the 80s.

The changes weren’t extreme but they were done. And I’m not even taking about the standardization of the first season opening and closing credit music.
I'd love to find out when they switched over to Steiner's recording.

I’ll still take the VHS/Laserdisc sound mix over anything afterwards. It’s the closest we had to the original.
Sorry, but I'm still not convinced the audio was changed in the 80s. The main titles in season 1, absolutely, but not the overall audio for the episodes proper.
 

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Having worked in a small market TV station I can say with certainty that's the case. We had a 16mm projector (one - it was quite "fun" changing shows at the hour/half-hour during a commercial break - especially if you were running Master Control by yourself) and *everything* came in that way - until 3/4" U-Matic took over. Those films would come in in horrible shape and there was nothing you could do but air them and send them on to the next station.
The small-market TV station I worked for had two 16mm telecine projectors. (We also had a 16mm film processor - similar to the ones Kodak and others put out for still film for the consumer market and were ubiquitous in large drug stores). That was for news footage and locally produced commercials).

For the larger market stations that I toured, the stations that ran off-network syndicated show (eg ST-C,LiS and The Twilight Zone-Original Recipe), they all had 16mm prints and projector. Also all of them were begging to transition away from shooting news film and going with more "portable" cameras and videotape.
 
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KPmusmag

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Thank you for acknowledging I am not making a mountain out of a mole hill. I have updated and tried the discs (from the 2009 set and the 50th anniversary set) on all three of my players with similar results. I have tried multiple ripping software and hardware. I have watched friends' discs that they say have no problems, yet when I watch at their house and point them out, they only shrug. I have tried two sets of discs on multiple wayward players with the same results.

The gaps are there whether I watch TOS or TOS-R. I have never seen TOS in any form in HD without multiple jarring transitions per every episode (that is, until I started correcting episodes myself).

Here is another video clip showing how my ripping software reacted to THE DEVIL IN THE DARK, followed by my attempt at upscaling 480 to replace the section (which starts 19 seconds into the clip). It's as seamless as my capabilities can make it, so it appears this is what I will have to live with.

This is all very interesting. On rare occasion, I have noticed the slightest glitch when watching the episodes with the new effects (on a lower end Sony machine in the family room - I have never noticed any problem when using a better Sony player in the projection room). That being said, being another one here who has ripped my ST blu-rays for convenient casual watching, I have never noticed any problem. I snipped those same moments from my rip and I do not see the pixelation issue. I used Handbrake, but I choose mp4 because that seems to work better with my home media system than does mkv.

Very puzzling what is going on here. (And to be clear, I don't doubt you in the least).

 
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KPmusmag

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Having cut all of the music material for this show, I'm aware of that. :)
Neil - this is great info. Would you mind speaking to the fact that some of the music tracks on the wonderful collector's set CD (one of my faves ever BTW) includes some stereo music tracks for "City on the Edge of Forever" - were those recorded in stereo at the time, or were there enough stems in the vault to mix it that way for the CD release? (Apologies in advance if my terminology is incorrect.)
 

ScottRE

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Having cut all of the music material for this show, I'm aware of that. :)
Well, I know you know. :biggrin: But there are a few other folks reading along.

The packaging didn't indicate on any of those video releases they were stereo and in that era, stereo re-mixes weren't often done. Yes, there were exceptions, but I've never heard of Star Trek being re-mixed to stereo in the 80s.
You're right, they don't say "stereo" but "Hi-Fi." My mix up.
IMG_7208.JPG
img007_cr.jpg


I'd love to find out when they switched over to Steiner's recording.
When they did the "Paramount Provided" prints to the syndicated stations, yes? 1984-85. Before that, WPIX was running them as they always had. Watching "The Man Trap" after the switch made the change jump out at me. I just would love a definitive answer as to how many episodes had the Courage version. 5? 7? Certainly not the 10 the DVDs wanted me to believe.

Sorry, but I'm still not convinced the audio was changed in the 80s. The main titles in season 1, absolutely, but not the overall audio for the episodes proper.
Neil, this is easy to check. Pop in a VHS or Laserdisc of "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and watch the climax when Mitchell whips the phaser rifle away. Listen for the sound effect and pay attention to the energy bolts between Mitchell and Dehner. Then throw on the blu ray of the aired version in mono or the unaired. As much as I have issues with the sound mix for the blu rays, WNMHGB sounds accurate. Anyway, don't believe me, let your own ears decide. Stereo or Hi-Fi, some tweaking was done.

All I can tell you is that the moment I first watched the "Paramount Provided" versions in the mid-80's I noticed the difference because I had most of the episodes on cassette tape for years prior and listened to them constantly (I had no friends). I've been obsessed with fidelity to original sound mixes ever since. I went nuts when WB put Superman out on DVD for the first time and the audio was totally different. And then the first V mini-series.

Anyway, whatever differences there are in the VHS prints and the broadcast are minimal. I'd be happy if any of the DVD or BD released just had that.
 

Nelson Au

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Great posts today about the ways TV shows were shown at local TV stations. i always wondered how it was done. I remember watching Star Trek on two local stations back during those times and the crude cutting to edit the shows to add more commercial time. Sounds like stone knives and bear skins by modern standards. IIRC, one station was KTVU and I remember one time I saw a news crew filming an event and I asked the camera guy why they took Star Trek off the air. :D

And also great discussions about the sound changes to Star Trek made when the series went to home video. I’m glad I still kept my laser discs.
 

Nelson Au

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Kevin, thanks for posting your video. Yes, it’s really odd why it seems so few people are seeing those pops and audio drops that Skylar sees. And that pixelation, I have not checkEd Devil in the Dark yet, but I dont recall anything like that and if I did, I’d not accept it.
 
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Neil S. Bulk

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Neil - this is great info. Would you mind speaking to the fact that some of the music tracks on the wonderful collector's set CD (one of my faves ever BTW) includes some stereo music tracks for "City on the Edge of Forever" - were those recorded in stereo at the time, or were there enough stems in the vault to mix it that way for the CD release? (Apologies in advance if my terminology is incorrect.)
We think things with vocals would be recorded to extra tracks. Not necessarily stereo, but multi-track. That would explain why "City" was recorded to 1/2" 3-track (the song "Goodnight Sweetheart" was recorded at these sessions). The season 3 main title was also recorded this way. And I'm not sure they recorded to 1/2" for the season 2 main title, but they did record separate woodwind and vocal overlays which we synced to the mono orchestra.

None of these had a real stereo "left-right" perspective. They were always intended to be mono.

Neil
 

Museum Pieces

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I was dismayed when discovering the TOS 50th anniversary soundtrack re-released music from the series set until I heard the material. I'm very grateful to whomever decided to put the earlier generation recordings on there. I integrated it with the series release for wonderfully consistent quality throughout. I listened to much of that that set tonight to celebrate the Trek anniversary. It's probably the greatest TV soundtrack set I have ever heard about, certainly the greatest one I own.

I used Handbrake, but I choose mp4 because that seems to work better with my home media system than does mkv.
I downloaded handbrake. I'm going to see if I can rip an episode with it seamlessly. If so, re-ripping 80 episodes would certainly be a lot less work than editing the gaps out of all of them. Thanks for your post. It's appreciated.

Edit: Handbrake is telling me the TOS-R discs are not in a source file that it supports, and it won't rip them. I downloaded version 1.3.3.
 
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BobO'Link

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Great posts today about the ways TV shows were shown at local TV stations. i always wondered how it was done. I remember watching Star Trek on two local stations back during those times and the crude cutting to edit the shows to add more commercial time. Sounds like stone knives and bear skins by modern standards. IIRC, one station was KTVU and I remember one time I saw a news crew filming an event and I asked the camera guy why they took Star Trek off the air. :D

And also great discussions about the sound changes to Star Trek made when the series went to home video. I’m glad I still kept my laser discs.
"Crude cutting to edit the shows to add more commercial time" is very accurate. At the station I worked at the film would be given to a camera operator (the lowest guys on the totem pole and usually the newest hires) to "time" and shorten if necessary. Timing involved putting the film on a video only moviola which you ran manually - similar to this 8mm version:
1599678751073.png

Note I said *video only* as you had no way to hear what was going on with the audio other than to watch for moving mouths. So... the film usually had a section of black or yellow leader where commercial breaks were to go (where I worked, if it was black you'd replace it with yellow - it's easier to see from across the room and you'd watch it approach the gate to know exactly when to cut to the commercial). There was a crude, mechanical, timer on the device which'd give you the running time. You'd log each section's time. Once you finished you'd add them to get a total run time and compare it to what the traffic dept. said was to be the maximum length. If it was too long you'd just cut a bit from the head or foot of a section to get the needed time. And remember - they had no way of knowing what, if any, dialog was being cut other than to look for moving mouths. Those trims would be saved and spliced back in before the film was sent to the next station. Of course you'd lose a few frames every time that was done and you could always see the splices run through the gate. Fortunately, that rarely happened with standard TV programs as the length were pretty standard (although if a show happened to be oversold then all bets were off) - it was movies that were more likely to need cutting for time. Oh... and it was fully manual splicing done mostly by people who'd just learned the process.
 
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Dave Upton

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I thought a few of the fellow DS9 fans in this thread would appreciate this read. Pretty impressive what the writer was able to do with a DVD source. It's truly unfortunate we haven't seen a blu-ray remaster yet, but I'm not done holding out hope.


Perhaps HTF should try to work with some fellow websites to launch a DS9 remaster kickstarter.
 
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BobO'Link

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I hate when that happens. You spend hours trying to figure something out and then finally hit upon the solution. Much later, you encounter the same problem and have to re-invent the wheel all over again.

Found this for LG players:

Why do I see an "ANGLE" icon during playback of some DVD and Blu-Ray movies on my Philips Blu Ray Player? How do I prevent it from showing up automatically?
Some BD-video or DVD-video discs have scenes shot from 2 or more angles. Angle information should be on the disc case if the disc contains multi-angle scenes.
If you see an “ANGLE” icon during playback, you can perform the following to change the angle views:
  1. During playback press [ANGLE] to bring up the camera angle information bar.
  2. Use up/down buttons or [ANGLE] repeatedly to switch the angle.
If you do not want the Angle Icon to show up automatically while watching a movie, please upgrade your BDP or HTS-BDP to the latest firmware version and then navigate to:
  • Home - > Settings - > Advanced Settings - > Others - > Angle Icon = OFF
If your BDP or HTS-BDP has the new One-UX GUI, the setting is located at:
  • Home - > Setup - > Preference Setup - > Angle Icon = OFF
Note: The option to toggle the angle icon on/off is only present in the latest firmware version.
My LG isn't connected to my network and doesn't have wifi. No update was available for dl for an off-line update from them. My router is in the same room as the player but I didn't have a cable long enough to reach. Today I finally remembered to bring one home from work (I'm in IT and have access to any length I need). I connect my system, verify connectivity, check for an update. Yep... there is one so I install it. To be on the safe side I check for updates again - nope, that one's it.

Sigh... neither of those menu options are available on my player, nor anything else that would offer such an option and I went through them all. Bummer. Oh well... I tried and maybe there are some other "enhancements" I'll see from the upgrade. At least I've watched the series enough on this player that I've gotten to where I pretty much tune out that idiotic icon so there's that...
 
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Museum Pieces

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At least I've watched the series enough on this player that I've gotten to where I pretty much tune out that idiotic icon so there's that...
I admire your ability to tune it out. I tuned it out until the pandemic, when I no longer found myself with the self-control energy.

Speaking of which, I have now removed the gaps, pops, and clicks from ten TOS-R episodes. A small sample size to be sure, but enough to draw some general conclusions. First, the CBS logo at the end of every episode invariably has a nasty pop associated with it; fifty percent of the time my video ripper rips it as a dropout with static. I don't even bother with it. I cut it now automatically and put the Desilu logo there.

Two out of the ten episodes produced a video glitch in the first shot immediately following a new effect. The episode with the fewest gaps so far has been Amok Time with two; the episode with the most gaps was The Immunity Syndrome with 13. That episode took me about 90 minutes to correct. Amok Time took me about sixty. Basically it takes me 2-3 minutes to fix a gap, depending on whether there's a word being split at the transition point, and about ten minutes to replace a 1080 glitch with upscaled 480.

I'm starting my second set of ten episodes fairly confident I can omit or replace any anomaly. :mellow:
 
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ScottRE

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If it makes you feel better, I’d never be able to live with the icon. The first time I saw on my first BD player, I went nuts figuring out how to get rid of it. It’s the same has having a logo or something pop up. I generally shut off all displays other than subtitles (for when characters are speaking in anything but English).
 
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Museum Pieces

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If it makes you feel better, I’d never be able to live with the icon. The first time I saw on my first BD player, I went nuts figuring out how to get rid of it. It’s the same has having a logo or something pop up. I generally shut off all displays other than subtitles (for when characters are speaking in anything but English).
In the long run I suppose I should be grateful for that icon, since it, along with the gaps, pops and clicks I experienced watching the TOS-R discs were what first motivated me to rip the episodes (I didn't watch them at that point), then rip my entire disc library. When I went back and watched the TOS-R rips, my stomach sank when seeing the anolaies, sans the icon, had been duplicated. However, I believe when I get this series done, the icon will turn out to be a good thing, because it motivated me to do this enormous project, to free myself from discs, something I seriously doubt I ever would have done without that damned icon.

I'm even playing with the idea of trying to restore some of these TOS sound mixes once I get all these episodes corrected. They're so obtuse.
 

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