Scott Atwell Star Trek Discussion thread (Series and Films) (1 Viewer)

[AndyMcKinney]

To date, I've not "ripped" any DVDs or Blu-rays and still use disc-based viewing for all of these formats.

Although I use Plex (and my Macbook Pro) to view things which aren't on a disc, I, too, have never bothered to RIP any of my discs to play back from RIPped files. It just seems too much trouble (for me) to go through when I don't rewatch stuff enough to make it worth the while. Just simpler to get off my backside and go get the disc.

 

[Sam Favate]

I know many people may be divided on the new show, Lower Decks, but I have to say I am thoroughly enjoying it. Last night's episode was so full of throw-away lines that reference TOS, TNG, DS9 and more that I have to watch it again to make sure I caught them all. It's obviously produced with a healthy love of Star Trek, and it shows.

 

[Nelson Au]

In regards to gaps during playback of Star Trek TOS on blu ray, can there please be a specific description of what you’re seeing and hearing, Skylar? Perhaps a very specific scene?

You’re a new member here, so I hope you are not feeling like it’s an attack on you. It’s not. I’ve been watching Star Trek TOS all way back in the day well before Star Trek The Motion Picture. I have had the series on every home video format. I used to audio record the series during syndication. When the HD-DVD first came out I even went so far as buying a Toshiba HD-DVD player to watch the remastered series. I’ve watched the Blu Rays on a Sony Blu Ray player and two different Oppo players. I have never seen a gap, a pause or heard any pauses in audio during a change from live action to the remastered effects. Is that what you’re seeing?

For example, in Errand of Mercy, there’s a very specific scene I always point to as a weakness of the remastered effort. They had to fade-out from a shot of Kor early so they could fade into the remastered CGI shot of the Enterprise in space. Kor’s line, “It would have been glorious” was slightly cut off as the image of Kor is faded out early. when I saw that on blu ray, I didn’t see a gap. Theres a similar fade-out in The Changling after Spock beams Nomad into deep space. Kirk sees Nomad blow up on the scanner, then Shatner turns to the camera, he starts to talk but they muted the audio, it’s always been there. I think it’s a shot seen in the blooper reel. That fade-out is also similarly faded out early to fade-in to a CGI shot of the Enterpruse.

I ripped the series on the remastered DVD’s and I don’t see a gap. I ripped the Blu Rays into MKV files and I don’t see the gap. So I’m really trying to understand what the issues is you see. Again, I’m not saying you’re wrong.

 

[BobO'Link]

My first BR player - a Sony (admittedly a very old model - had A/V outputs if that says anything) hiccuped *every* time a seamless branching section hit, often with a 1/2 to 1 second pause before the switch and you could hear the drive thrashing when this happened. That, alone, was enough for me to never watch the series with the updated effects as that didn't happen when watching with the original ones (which I prefer anyway).

My new player, an LG, throws up that horrid "angle" icon every time no matter which version I'm watching. I've yet to find a way to remove that annoyance and it seems to be a common complaint with LG players.

**EDIT**
Unlike that old Sony player, my LG plays either version quite smoothly with no noticeable gap/delay if watching with the updated vfx. Just that angle icon.

 

[Nelson Au]

I wonder if there is even branching occurring during playback of a TOS episode. When I made MKV files of Star Trek TOS, there are two files, one for original effects and one for remastered effects. When I made the MKV files, I picked the one that is original effects. I ripped only those and they playback fine. So this discussion made me think there is one full episode file of Star Trek TOS in original effects and one full episode file with remastered effects. There is no searching for the remastered effects files going on during play back. That’s my theory. I wonder if someone with the technical knowledge could confirm either way.

I have been thinking of ripping MKV files of the episodes with remastered effects too to have them available to view. So that could be a way to test the theory.

And I should sit down and watch the blu ray on a blu ray player and see if I can see what Howie is seeing too. If that is what Skylar is seeing? I’ve not seen that happen before.

 

[Museum Pieces]

You’re a new member here, so I hope you are not feeling like it’s an attack on you. It’s not.

Thank you. I was going, "Oh this is going to be another one of THOSE message boards...." And was ready to duck out.

I have never seen a gap, a pause or heard any pauses in audio during a change from live action to the remastered effects. Is that what you’re seeing?

Yes. Specific instances, TOS or TOS-R for THE DOOMSDAY MACHINE:

04:07
14:38
16:56
22:50
28:21
35:35
40:03
49:21

Specifically, what happens, is that the sound drops out, anywhere from 2-4 frames.

Through the years I have had two friends who said they never noticed any gaps, which I believe to be true statements, yet when I went over and watched, the gaps were there. Maybe I am just hyper-sensitive to it. I've even seen transitions where the gap is silent, yet it's obvious these scenes are being butted together. I'm delighted for those who perceive the transitions as seamless; I remain skeptical, however, that if I saw what they're seeing, I would find them seamless, too. Maybe I am cursed with either bad luck with Blu-Ray players or being a film editor by trade, I am extra sensitive to it. I expect all the cuts in a show to be as seamless as actual cuts, not so-called seamless ones.

Thanks again for your post. It's greatly appreciated.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

My earlier comments were not meant as any sort of criticism or attack and I sincerely apologize if it came across that way. My goal was simply to put forth my experiences and understanding of what was on the discs in the hope that that information could be helpful towards addressing the issue. But I apologize if it left you feeling like you wanted to run for the hills. Not my intent.

 

[BobO'Link]

Thank you. I was going, "Oh this is going to be another one of THOSE message boards...." And was ready to duck out.

This is most certainly *not* "another one of THOSE message boards..." - however most of us here *are* quite opinionated. Even with that, we're generally quite open to and tolerant of others' opinions (sometimes we go off the deep end - but we're human, so....).

 

[Josh Steinberg]

As to Nelson’s earlier question, when they authored the discs, they made the choice to use the multi angle function rather than traditional seamless branching and I believe that is what’s causing the headaches for anyone who has had any sort of playback issue with them.

With seamless branching, what happens is the episode or movie is actually multiple files and the player accessed a playlist that commands it to play them in a certain order. For instance, if you looked at a seamlessly branched title on an extraction program like MakeMKV, you’d see that a title would be made of segments that could look like this:
100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105

And that a different version of the same title with some different content would look like this:
100, 201, 102, 203, 104, 205

That’s just an example to show how it would actually look at a data level for how that would look. That kind of seamless branching is easy for players to handle and almost never causes a problem. Studios use it all the time. For instance, when you put in a disc and the first menu screen asks you to select a language (like many Disney discs), it’ll order the player to play the version with the main titles written in the language the user chooses.

But for these TOS discs, because they wanted to give users the option to switch versions on the fly (I don’t know why they felt that was important, but so be it), you’re actually getting one file with different angles, and the player has to keep straight which angle it’s viewing. Even more difficult technically, only the parts with differences are encoded as separate angles, so the disc is asking the player to do a lot of lifting. Even more complex is that the 7.1 remix is timed to the remastered effects and the 2.0 mono is timed to the original effects - you can choose which one you listen to but then the player also has additional heavy lifting to keep the sound in sync when you’re playing a mismatch of visual effects and audio.

In short, by adding this as a multiangle feature rather than as a seamlessly branched one, the player is being tasked to sort of create the version you want as it goes, instead of just playing back a predetermined list of files.

It was a well intentioned, neat gimmick of an idea that unfortunately leaves a lot of potential for errors to happen during playback. I had assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that newer players would have it all worked out by now, but it’s also a feature so seldomly used that it’s possible no one has stress tested players at the development stage with this kind of complex authoring.

None of the above even takes into account the alterations to the episode’s timings that the new effects introduce, which the 7.1 remix compensates for, but which can occasionally seem inelegant. They negatives have the opticals cut in, so when they wanted to replace a shot with a new effect where it dissolved from live action into the effect (like dissolving from a live action Kirk on the bridge to a special effect shot of the Enterprise in orbit), they’d have to start the dissolve a second earlier to insert the new effect, and that caused a bit of pragmatic but inelegant work to make it all come together. There probably wasn’t a better option given what they had to work with but it does introduce a compromise that didn’t used to be there.

 

[Museum Pieces]

In short, by adding this as a multiangle feature rather than as a seamlessly branched one, the player is being tasked to sort of create the version you want as it goes, instead of just playing back a predetermined list of files.

The specific gaps I have corrected so far in the THE CORBOMITE MANEUVER and THE DOOMSDAY MACHINE would seem to support your hypothesis of the culprit being the multi-angle option more than the seamless branching. That makes sense.

Either way, I have two episodes edited that have truly seamless transitions and by the time I am done, I will never have to see those gaps again. After 11 years, with the stress of the pandemic, they are what I am choosing to take my angst out on. I can't fix so much of the crazy world right now, but I can fix these gaps. And never have to hear or see them again (or that annoying angle icon, which I could never turn off no matter what I tried).

One episode a night will get it done.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Oof, if your player has that multi angle icon that can’t go away, you have my sympathies. My first BD player never did that but when I got my second one and it did, it was like, what the heck is this crap. The setting to turn off the icon was buried so deeply in the menu I only discovered it by accident a long time later.

Good luck with your project!

 

[Museum Pieces]

Oof, if your player has that multi angle icon that can’t go away, you have my sympathies.

All my players have it. I specifically bought my last player because someone mistakenly told me it didn't have it. So I ripped TOS last year and all the special features at original quality just to get rid of the damned icon. It's about 1 TB including both DVD sets and all special features. It's really nice because all the special features scattered over the two DVD and BD releases are gathered into one place. When I enjoyed having TOS at my fingertips so much, I ripped the rest of my ST collection, and it has blossomed to about 4TB. But I can find anything I want in a snap.

That's what led to me doing my entire disc collection. I expect to spend the rest of my life curating it. But I sure do enjoy having it all at my fingertips. You may or may not be surprised at how many discs I have encountered that have authoring problems. I fixed all that as well. My biggest concern is making sure my drives and my off site backups stay viable. My plan is to make a new set of drives about every five years.

 

[TJPC]

Can we get back to talking about Star Trek now?

 

[Museum Pieces]

Can we get back to talking about Star Trek now?

You're the one off topic with your post. How about you stop complaining and BE the change you want in this thread instead of being sarcastic? If you want to talk ST, no one's stopping you. I mentioned ST at least 3 times in my last post.

 

[Nelson Au]

Skylar, I watched The Doomsday Machine on the blu ray with the remastered effects. I watched the entire episode and watched and listened more closely during those times you listed above. I really did not see any pauses or audio drop-outs.

From what you’re describing, it sounds like what happens during a layer change on a DVD. I’ve noticed those! There’s a slight pause and audio drop when that occurs. But honestly, I didn’t hear any interruptions in the music or the image becoming still. At those times you listed, I could see it’s right at a transition from live action to the CGI effects.

I also watched a bit of the episode with the original effects and at those transition times, the audio sounded the same. Meaning there was no change in the timing of the audio at the transition from CGi to live action when watching the same scene in both versions. So I’m unable to see what I think you are describing. It had me wondering if there is a setting being used on your player that is causing the problem?

Josh, thanks for your post regarding the angle being used for each version of the episode. That makes sense, so what we are seeing is the remastered effects is one angle and the entire episode is seen as one angle. At least that’s how I’m interpreting what you’re describing. And based on what I saw when I ripped the series Blu Rays. The entire episodes with CGI effects is one file and the whole episode with original effects is another file used as an angle.

As an experiment, I used the angle change function on my remote on the Oppo blu ray player, on the fly I changed the angle during one of the effects shots. It took a second or two for the change, but it did it and I didn’t hear a change in audio, and no pause In the motion. It was just playing the mono track while I switched angles.

interestingly, Angle 1 is the CGI effects and Angle 2 is the original. When I ripped the blu ray, it was consistent the second episode file was the one with original effects.

That was a fun little experiment. And I always enjoy watching The Doomsday Machine! While the remastered CGI effects in this episode was well done, they also helped with clarifying the action. Though I still prefer the original Doomsday Machine miniature.

 

[BobO'Link]

That's interesting that there are 2 complete files, one remastered and one not. That information *really* makes me want to invest in the necessary equipment to rip mine to a server. A side benefit would be getting rid of the bloated menu systems Paramount likes to use for ST releases.

I wonder why my early Sony player did all that thrashing and "stuttering" when watching the remastered effects versions? Because of the way it behaved I always thought they used seamless branching for those, mostly short, segments and the thrashing was the system looking for that short file to drop in. It never did that watching the original effects versions.

 

[Museum Pieces]

As an experiment, I used the angle change function on my remote on the Oppo blu ray player

To me the key word in your entire post was Oppo. I wish I had one. On the other hand, if I did, my entire disc collection likely wouldn't be transferred to hard drives right now. So I guess in the long run it worked out okay.

Being so tuned in for sound drops, I found one in JOURNEY TO BABEL that left me curious. It occurs at 12:45 and is not sandwiched between a new visual effect and live action, but rather between two live-action scenes. I am wondering if is that way in the original episode or if it is a product of the same breakdown in my system. Nelson, at your leisure, would you mind checking your Blu-ray to see what you find at that spot? What I experience is precisely what sometimes happens on my set when a new visual effect is butted up against a live-action shot.

Obviously I am not correcting episodes chronologically. If I run out of gas after 25 or 30, I plan for them all to be my favorites.

JOURNEY TO BABEL is among episodes at the top for me, not only because it's an enlightening episode with Spock's father and mother, but it's so well written. Every scene seems to heighten interest, anticipation or suspense. Love how the fight in the corridor starts in the middle just to move things along. When I was young I screamed at the TV, "Why doesn't Spock's cabin door open when he puts his hand on it after his mother slaps his face and storms out?" Nowadays I watch that scene and think it's beautiful. And the way Sarek pushes back the Tellarite Ambassador with such force without ever moving is effective at convincing me how strong the Vulcan is. The music cue at 15:00 always suggested to me that Sarek was going to do something duplicitous, but all he's doing is taking a pill. Weird how the sound of the bridge starts over that shot of McCoy in sickbay. It's always been that way. I love the new visual effect at 40:08 of Chekov trying to phaser the alien ship. I think they created an effect that looked like something they would have done in the late 60s if they could have. Really fun. The last scene with McCoy might be a little over the top for me, but I enjoy the way he is bouncing on his heals in the final closeup of the episode.

 

[Neil S. Bulk]

To me the key word in your entire post was Oppo. I wish I had one.

What player are you using?

 

[Josh Steinberg]

There aren’t two complete files for each episode; my mistake if it came across that way.

There is one single file for each episode, and within that single file is a multi angle feature where certain segments of the episode have two angles - and when they do, the first angle is the new effects and the second angle is the old ones. But they’re all contained within a single file. Anytime there’s a shot that’s the same in both versions, that’s only in there once. When it gets to a part where there are variations between the original and new effects, those variants are both in the single file and the disc player on the fly has to determine which one to play.

MakeMKV can’t rip multiangle material to a single file while preserving the multiangle function, so it creates two unique files out of the single file on the disc.

 

[Nelson Au]

Hi Skylar, sure, I could check out Journey to Babel. I probably won’t have time till this evening. Agreed it’s a landmark episode with a lot of great things going within it. DC Fontana was the person who really wrote the best Spock centric episodes! I’ll let you know.

Josh, when I was making the MKV files of Star Trek TOS, I did see two 8gb Video files for each episode. I picked the second one and deselected everything else except the English audio and subtitles. When the rip finished, I can see it’s the episode in the original effects. So I made the conclusion then that there are two complete episode video files of each episode on the disc, one 8gb file for the whole episode with original effects and the other 8gb file I concluded must have been the complete episode with the CGI remastered episode. You post made me think each file is for each angle.

I’ve been curious to try to rip the remastered episodes as a separate rip so I’d have the option to pick either MKV file from Infuse to view, the original or remastered. Though I don’t know if Plex will let me do two separate Star Trek TOS series.

As an experiment, and I’m not trying to contradict what you’re saying, I’m curious what would happen if I did another rip of The Doomsday Machine using only the one 8gb file that I assume contains the entire episode with remastered effects.

Perhaps as you say, each 8gb file contains both effects, it’s just that one file has the instructions for the angle for remastered effects and the other file has the instructions for the original effects? And when using Make MKV, it’s not showing all those files inside the 8gb file?

( edit: After re-reading your post, I think you’re saying MakeMKV made two files, one with cgi and one with original effects and that’s what I’m seeing? I thought when using MakeMKV, I was seeing what is in the disc. Not files that are constituted from the files on the disc? )