Scott Atwell Star Trek Discussion thread (Series and Films) (5 Viewers)

[Jason_V]

Of all of them, Family, to
Me is the missed opportunity. In Generations, we find that Picard’s brother Robert and Nephew Rene were killed before they could visit the Enterprise. Why? In TNG, Robert is introduced as a bitter older brother. By the end of the episode, He and Picard understand one another and Picard finds himself again. In addition, Picard meets Rene and realizes that he may have missed out after all because he had not had his own children. Why not have Rene in Starfleet? As a kid, he told Picard, he had written a report on Star ships for school. As Picard leaves to return to the Enterprise, Rene tells him he will one day be a Star ship captain.

Well, I'll take a stab at this one. The Enterprise doesn't make it back to Earth all that often (yes, they did in Time's Arrow, which is post-Family, but they were on a very specific mission in that episode). If Robert was busy with the vineyard and kept putting a trip off, do you really want a pre-teen traveling a long way from home in a transport by himself?

I admit none of this was actually mentioned in the show or movies, so I am extrapolating quite a bit.

 

[Nelson Au]

Hi guys, I thought I’d do a quick post about my completion of my viewing of Star Trek TOS. I just wrapped it up with Turnabout Intruder. It’s not an episode I watch that often. Though I’d seen it many many times over the decades. And along with several other third season episodes, during this viewing, I was struck by a difference in the series. There’s been a few minor set changes we see. The corridor outside the Auxiliary Control room in The Way to Eden, in Let That Be Your Last Battlefield there’s an interesting way they film Lokai’s speech in the rec room with the door partially open so Spock can eavesdrop, and in Turnabout Intruder the private room Dr. Lester has and the courtroom redress of the Briefing Room. Some interesting things were done to change it up on the Enterprise. There’s also some really cool stuff done in the planet ruins when the landing party beams in to save Janice Lester’s party. The wall where the transference takes place is a very nice piece of production design. Simple yet effective. I’ve always liked that wall ever since I saw it as a kid.

But to the main point of my post was William Shatner’s performance. This episode was highlighted in TV Guide going waaaay back for Shatners performance. I really watched it again this time and he’s quite good at first as Dr. Lester is getting used to being a man. And getting used to the new role and gadgets. then later as Dr. Lester’s plan is running a foul of Spock and McCoy, Lester in Kirk’s body starts to really get unhinged. It’s also interesting to see Nimoy’s reaction as Spock mindmelds with Lester/Kirk as he realizes that Kirk is really in her body. I never noticed that look of surprise before. Later I thought Doohan and Kelley had a great scene outside the courtroom.

We’ve seen some criminally insane people in the third season, though it surprised me a little as I thought more about it as to how someone could still get that bent out of shape during the more perfect society of the future that Star Trek creates.

This is a hard episode for me to see as I know it’s the last one. So I don’t watch it as much as when it was in syndication and repeated so often back then. This was fun though as I ran through the entire series sequentially this time in broadcast order and with the original effects and mono audio.

 

[bmasters9]

This was fun though as I ran through the entire series sequentially this time in broadcast order and with the original effects and mono audio.

Glad that the Blu gave you the choice!

 

[John*Wells]

Well, I'll take a stab at this one. The Enterprise doesn't make it back to Earth all that often (yes, they did in Time's Arrow, which is post-Family, but they were on a very specific mission in that episode). If Robert was busy with the vineyard and kept putting a trip off, do you really want a pre-teen traveling a long way from home in a transport by himself?

I admit none of this was actually mentioned in the show or movies, so I am extrapolating quite a bit.

I get what you’re saying. However, at the time of the episode, Rene would have been about 13. Generations was released in 1994. Theoretically, Rene could have entered the academy. I remember Star Trek the Wrath oh Khan in which the story show’s Scottys nephew Peter Preston. Peter was killed in Khans first attack of the film. That film also introduced Kirk’s son David. He was killed by the Klingons in the Search for Spock.

I think it would have been nice to see a family member of the crew used more efficiently. I remember at the beginning of Generations, Sulu’s Daughter is introduced but she wasn’t related to a Central figure of the film

 

[Jason_V]

I get what you’re saying. However, at the time of the episode, Rene would have been about 13. Generations was released in 1994. Theoretically, Rene could have entered the academy. I remember Star Trek the Wrath oh Khan in which the story show’s Scottys nephew Peter Preston. Peter was killed in Khans first attack of the film. That film also introduced Kirk’s son David. He was killed by the Klingons in the Search for Spock.

Per Memory Alpha and the "Family" script (canon adjacent), Rene was born in 2360 and Generations took place in 2371, making him 11 years old. Starfleet entrance age is 16. So no, he can't be in the Academy.

I have a problem thinking he's that young, but that is the available canon-ish information as far as I know.

 

[John*Wells]

Per Memory Alpha and the "Family" script (canon adjacent), Rene was born in 2360 and Generations took place in 2371, making him 11 years old. Starfleet entrance age is 16. So no, he can't be in the Academy.

I have a problem thinking he's that young, but that is the available canon-ish information as far as I know.

I actually went by the age of the actor playing him in 1990 born 1977 which made the actor approximately 13. I admit I did not think of Memory alpha. Nevertheless, it seems the franchise went to the death angle one too many times

 

[Jason_V]

Fair. It's a moot point in the long run, though. Rene is dead, he never got into the Academy and he never visited the Enterprise. Nothing can be done about it at this point in the chronology.

 

[Nelson Au]

I thought it was real shame too Rene died. I’m not a fan of Generations. So I’ve not seen it in a long time. I don’t like that they killed Kirk too. I hope a piece of him is still in the Nexus and he can come back.

About Rene, it was cool they asked the same actor to come back to portray a very young Picard in the Rascals episode. I see that as a sort of consolation.

But killing him and Picard’s brother was not nice.

 

[John*Wells]

I thought it was real shame too Rene died. I’m not a fan of Generations. So I’ve not seen it in a long time. I don’t like that they killed Kirk too. I hope a piece of him is still in the Nexus and he can come back.

About Rene, it was cool they asked the same actor to come back to portray a very young Picard in the Rascals episode. I see that as a sort of consolation.

But killing him and Picard’s brother was not nice.

I thought the best part was at the beginning of the episode, Rene is trying to Pronounce Arrogant .. Picard Helps him and he says , "Yes, Arrogant. You don't Seem that way to me." "What does it Mean anyway? Arrogant Son of a" Picard says immediately "Lets talk about that later shall we?" they get to the Picard home and Rene runs to tell His mother Picard has arrived

 

[Nelson Au]

I’m going to start a chronological re-viewing of TNG, so I look forward to seeing that episode.

 

[Sam Favate]

But killing him and Picard’s brother was not nice.

It's just bad writing. There's been this idea in storytelling that killing off characters is a way to make the audience feel something, and/or give the main characters something to react to, which hopefully makes the audience feel something. There are several problems with that. 1) It's cheap, and the audience knows it, so it doesn't really work. Does anyone really think of Generations as that movie where Picard works through his grief over his family? Of course not. 2) It's bad storytelling. Characters shouldn't exist simply as props for your main characters to react to; good storytelling should have supporting characters with their own lives, which ST:TNG did very well when it introduced Robert and Rene in Family. By killing them off (off screen no less), they're not even characters anymore, just situations for Picard. (And Ron Moore should have known better - he wrote Family and co-wrote Generations.)

(BTW, is it a retcon that Picard's sister-in-law is also supposed to have died in the fire? She was not mentioned in Generations, but there is no sign of her in Picard.)

The second problem happens a lot with female characters. There is a legitimate objection in all forms of storytelling where the female character is nothing more than a means through which male characters can express themselves, whether it is frustration, anger, angst, sadness, etc. Such a construct only uses the female character as a plot device and doesn't see her as a real person. Jadzia's death in Deep Space Nine fits this objectionable definition.

In comic books, this is referred to as "women in refrigerators." There is even a web site dedicated to the trope: http://lby3.com/wir/ The most famous character treated this way was Gwen Stacy, Spider-Man's girlfriend. When the writers didn't know what to do with her anymore, they killed her off and wrote about Spider-Man's reaction to her death for years. Even before that, the James Bond movies made it part of the formula: Every film had a "sacrificial lamb" (usually female) character, who was close to Bond and was killed off in the first act. (That used to be Bond's personal angle into the story, before the films all became about Bond going rogue and seeking revenge.)

Anyway, all of this is a long way of saying that Generations was poorly written.

 

[John*Wells]

It's just bad writing. There's been this idea in storytelling that killing off characters is a way to make the audience feel something, and/or give the main characters something to react to, which hopefully makes the audience feel something. There are several problems with that. 1) It's cheap, and the audience knows it, so it doesn't really work. Does anyone really think of Generations as that movie where Picard works through his grief over his family? Of course not. 2) It's bad storytelling. Characters shouldn't exist simply as props for your main characters to react to; good storytelling should have supporting characters with their own lives, which ST:TNG did very well when it introduced Robert and Rene in Family. By killing them off (off screen no less), they're not even characters anymore, just situations for Picard. (And Ron Moore should have known better - he wrote Family and co-wrote Generations.)

(BTW, is it a retcon that Picard's sister-in-law is also supposed to have died in the fire? She was not mentioned in Generations, but there is no sign of her in Picard.)

The second problem happens a lot with female characters. There is a legitimate objection in all forms of storytelling where the female character is nothing more than a means through which male characters can express themselves, whether it is frustration, anger, angst, sadness, etc. Such a construct only uses the female character as a plot device and doesn't see her as a real person. Jadzia's death in Deep Space Nine fits this objectionable definition.

In comic books, this is referred to as "women in refrigerators." There is even a web site dedicated to the trope: http://lby3.com/wir/ The most famous character treated this way was Gwen Stacy, Spider-Man's girlfriend. When the writers didn't know what to do with her anymore, they killed her off and wrote about Spider-Man's reaction to her death for years. Even before that, the James Bond movies made it part of the formula: Every film had a "sacrificial lamb" (usually female) character, who was close to Bond and was killed off in the first act. (That used to be Bond's personal angle into the story, before the films all became about Bond going rogue and seeking revenge.)

Anyway, all of this is a long way of saying that Generations was poorly written.

In Regards to
Picard’s sister in law , Marie, per Memory Alpha, she is alive. I have wondered if she will appear in Picard. The show has been renewed for a second season. Speaking for myself, I do hope Marie appears

 

[Nelson Au]

Hey guys, wow, it’s 7 1/2 years since there was a post on the Star Trek The Next Generation blu ray first season release. Thought I’d make a post because I am revisiting the series on the blu rays now that Picard has debuted on CBS All Access.

I’m starting an effort to convert the blu rays to MKV files for home theater streaming. And I am rewatching the series again, thought I’d post as I don’t watch too many of the early first season episodes. I’ve only re-watched Encounter at Farpoint and bits of The Naked Now. I’ve seen Encounter quite a few times when it debuted and several times since, but not in the past 7 1/2 years since the blu rays first came out. It’s amazing to see how young the cast was and how stiff they were in the first few episodes. And the first season as we all have certainly discussed before is very mixed. I usually prefer more of the later first season episodes. But the series certainly improved by the third season. The second episode The Naked Now looks so amateurish in some ways so I avoid it. I do like the episode Where No One Has Gone Before and the Traveller and his pointing out how special Wesley is and to make Picard aware of this. It’s surprising I’d not realized how this episode in someways parallels Shore Leave where the crew’s thoughts become a reality.

I feel so much nostalgia rewatching the two episodes. Not like Star Trek TOS that’s beyond that for me, it’s a big part of me and my youth and adult life. TNG is a second coming, but it doesn’t have quite the same hold, but was out there in my youth and does have a hold on me too. It certainly became a very worthy follow-up to TOS.

I’m looking forward to the later episodes that have a direct connection to Picard. I think on this re-watch of TNG, I’ll likely skip early episodes that just aren’t that strong.

 

[Osato]

Hey guys, wow, it’s 7 1/2 years since there was a post on the Star Trek The Next Generation blu ray first season release. Thought I’d make a post because I am revisiting the series on the blu rays now that Picard has debuted on CBS All Access.

I’m starting an effort to convert the blu rays to MKV files for home theater streaming. And I am rewatching the series again, thought I’d post as I don’t watch too many of the early first season episodes. I’ve only re-watched Encounter at Farpoint and bits of The Naked Now. I’ve seen Encounter quite a few times when it debuted and several times since, but not in the past 7 1/2 years since the blu rays first came out. It’s amazing to see how young the cast was and how stiff they were in the first few episodes. And the first season as we all have certainly discussed before is very mixed. I usually prefer more of the later first season episodes. But the series certainly improved by the third season. The second episode The Naked Now looks so amateurish in some ways so I avoid it. I do like the episode Where No One Has Gone Before and the Traveller and his pointing out how special Wesley is and to make Picard aware of this. It’s surprising I’d not realized how this episode in someways parallels Shore Leave where the crew’s thoughts become a reality.

I feel so much nostalgia rewatching the two episodes. Not like Star Trek TOS that’s beyond that for me, it’s a big part of me and my youth and adult life. TNG is a second coming, but it doesn’t have quite the same hold, but was out there in my youth and does have a hold on me too. It certainly became a very worthy follow-up to TOS.

I’m looking forward to the later episodes that have a direct connection to Picard. I think on this re-watch of TNG, I’ll likely skip early episodes that just aren’t that strong.

Seasons 1 and 2 are trying for me to watch. i tried several times to pick up the series on season 3. I just couldn’t do it. I watched it when it was on but to this day I don’t know if I’ve seen them all.

 

[Nelson Au]

Season Three is when they get all the elements fully working. Seasons One and Two was sort of trying to see what worked and with mixed results.

 

[John*Wells]

Season Three is when they get all the elements fully working. Seasons One and Two was sort of trying to see what worked and with mixed results.

You are making me want to pull my Blu Ray series set and watch them all Nelson

 

[Doug Wallen]

Been cherry picking episodes since Picard has been on the air. I started with the obvious ones, "I. Borg", "The Measure of A Man", "Descent Part 1 and Part 2".

Today I went back and viewed TOS "The Ultimate Computer" to refresh myself concerning Dr. Daystrom. I guess he recovered from his breakdown in order to be revered and have buildings and schools named for him.

I really appreciate the attention to all Trek history that Picard is showing.

All viewed on blu of course !!!

 

[John*Wells]

Been cherry picking episodes since Picard has been on the air. I started with the obvious ones, "I. Borg", "The Measure of A Man", "Descent Part 1 and Part 2".

Today I went back and viewed TOS "The Ultimate Computer" to refresh myself concerning Dr. Daystrom. I guess he recovered from his breakdown in order to be revered and have buildings and schools named for him.

I really appreciate the attention to all Trek history that Picard is showing.

All viewed on blu of course !!!

I have often wondered about Daystrom because of that very thing. He went crazy in TOS. I’m surprised he didn’t spend life in a star fleet mental ward

 

[Nelson Au]

I watched The Neutral Zone today. I jumped ahead. There’s still several first season episodes I like that I think were pretty good. But I wanted to see this episode. That might be another episode to list as prerequisite for Picard. It was always a favorite of the first season for me not only for the Romulan’s return, but for the cryogenic B story. What I’d forgotten was that Maurice Hurley had intended this story to be one of three that’s continued in the second season that introduced the Borg. There was a writers strike though and this episode didn’t have time for a polish so Hurley only had a short amount of time to get it ready. The Romulan and Federation outposts along the Neutral Zone had appeared to have been scooped off the surface. That’s a remnant of the Borg story I’m sure. Upon this re-watch, it also felt like a direct sequel to Balance of Terror and I like that aspect of the story too. Though Kirk had another encounter with the Romulans in a Enterprise Incident, this episode has the same feel of Balance of Terror.

So this marks the beginning of Picard’s interaction with the Romulan people which leads to the events in Picard.

 

[Nelson Au]

You are making me want to pull my Blu Ray series set and watch them all Nelson

Go for it!