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Scott Atwell Star Trek Discussion thread (Series and Films)

Discussion in 'TV on DVD and Blu-ray' started by Ockeghem, Mar 9, 2008.

  1. Jason_V

    Jason_V Producer

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    Oh, "These are the Voyages..." was a massive middle finger to all Enterprise fans. And I'd go as far as saying the same thing to any TNG fans. There was no good reason to include Riker and Troi in that episode AND try to shoehorn it into an established episode. Or to kill Trip. It's just ghastly.
     
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  2. Sam Favate

    Sam Favate Lead Actor

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    Yes, my new appreciation for Enterprise that came with watching the DVDs/blu-rays did not include that finale.

    I prefer to think of Terra Prime as the true finale of Enterprise.
     
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  3. Nelson Au

    Nelson Au Executive Producer

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    I haven’t seen Voyager’s finale in a very long time. Glad to hear you enjoyed the series far more then the finale. As I recall, one of the criticisms of the series was the declawing of the Borg. But then First Contact gave us the queen so it’s not entirely on Voyager. But the main thing is we wanted to see them actually get home and see them back on Earth.

    I had a little extra time this evening and decided to watch the finale after reading the posts. I haven’t seen it in several years, so I had forgotten some of the dilemma between the Admiral and Captain Janeway. I also had not seen the final season in a very long time, so if I recall correctly, Chakotay and Seven sort of had an experience that caused them to explore their relationship.

    One of the things that this production company had a habit of doing was set up these finales where the time line is different, as was done with the Enterprise finale and we see them not through that crews eyes, but Riker and Troi. The Next Generation finale also was set in the future. With Voyager, it also started with the future version of Janeway and the crew back on earth.

    I actually enjoyed the finale not having seen it for some time. I didn’t feel cheated and I liked how they constructed the basic story. I liked how the pragmatic older Janeway, whose rather weary after the long journey to get home is obsessed with getting Voyager home sooner. I liked how she is reminded of her younger idealistic self. And how they hatched their plan to get past the Borg conduit.

    In retrospect, I think it was a good finale. We do get to see the ship return home at the start, so no need to repeat it at the end. Was it rushed? I can see it was maybe, but they were running fast to escape the Borg sphere. It might have been contrived to have Tuvok have his disease that needs immediate treatment in the Alpha quadrant. I think at the time I saw it originally, it was a tad disappointing, but I wasn’t feeling that bad about it. They got home! So this time watching it, I thought it was well done.
     
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  4. KPmusmag

    KPmusmag Supporting Actor
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    Thank you, Nelson. I like the Voyager finale - and, yes, I would have liked more about their actual return, more fireworks, perhaps. But I like the story overall. As one of the few extant Voyager fans, I was happy with the finale. This was not an easy story to write; but I thought there were enough twists and turns to be satisfying. Ultimately, and I say this for myself only (what else can any of us do?), I like the characters in the show and they are people I would not mind spending the rest of my life with (if I had to). For much of the series, Janeway abjectly followed Starfleet protocol but, in the end, she chose her people over that protocol. That made the Finale gratifying to me. That being said, didn't Picard "melt" the Borg Queen in First Contact?
     
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  5. Nelson Au

    Nelson Au Executive Producer

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    Kevin, Yes, I liked that Janeway was convinced by her older self to forget about the protocol, and get this crew home. Admiral Janeway pointed out what the fans were criticizing Janeway for, for destroying the Caretaker that could have taken them home. So it was fun to see her change her stance.
     
  6. Jason_V

    Jason_V Producer

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    Clearly my memory of Endgame is far different. What I remember if Janeway fairly suddenly changing her SOP despite seven years of having thrown everything on being Starfleet and sticking to Starfleet ideals. I also remember the forced romance between 7 and Chakotay, zipping through the birth of B'Elanna's baby, the rush to Earth and the possibly changed arriving home at the beginning. (Which was from video, IIRC, not even in "real time.")

    Oh, and the Borg. Again. For the millionth time.
     
  7. BobO'Link

    BobO'Link Producer

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    I'm glad I'm not the only one to feel that way about the Borg. I know lots of people like them. I do not and usually will skip a Borg episode during rewatchings of any TNG episode in which they appear. It's harder with Voyager due to the stronger integration. Seven of Nine coming on board Voyager almost killed that series for me. Over time I've grown to like, and accept, the character better but still think it could have been a stronger show without it.
     
  8. Jason_V

    Jason_V Producer

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    For me, they were horribly overused from VOY S4 through S7. It's always the Borg database or a Borg piece of tech or 7's cortical implant or something that saves the day. VOY struggled to find an actual "big bad" in its first three years, and running into the Borg was logical based on history. But when every second or third episode had something to do with them, it became too much for me.

    In Q Who and Best of Both Worlds, they were menacing and omnipotent. By the end of their run (on Enterprise, though it is pre-24th century Trek), any ship could defeat them...
     
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  9. Blimpoy06

    Blimpoy06 Supporting Actor

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    I made a similar comment on another board. The Borg represented something the Federation couldn't deal with by reason or force. That was entire point Q was trying to make to Picard. They don't want to discuss terms or treaties, just assimilate.

    The Borg lost the uniqueness by over use and watering down the premise. Once they became individualized and had a hierarchy the whole hive mentality is moot. They damage started with Picard's partial assimilation? I don't know how else to explain him returning to normal. And Hugh defiantly destroyed it. Why could some return to normal after assimilation and Seven couldn't? Anyone who just finished Voyager remember the reason they left her part Borg? Or couldn't find any loose fitting clothes for her to wear? Blatant T&A that seemed to work for magazine covers, but not in context of the show.
     
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  10. Message #13110 of 13516 Feb 25, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2018
    benbess

    benbess Cinematographer

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    I'm also one of the few Voyager fans around here. Count me as a fan of the finale. Good wrap up imho.

    As a side note, Voyager was the gateway to Star Trek for my nieces, ages 10 and 12. They liked Janeway, Torres, Seven of Nine, etc. as strong and yet complicated female characters. Having watched all of Voyager, they are now going through Star Trek: The Next Generation using a list of recommended episodes that my son and I came up with to miss the "duds." They are now on the third season of Next Gen, enjoying it, and are about to get to the episode Sarek. In prep for that I suggested they watch Journey to Babel first, and so now they are going all the way back to TOS....None of that would have happened without Voyager. Their Mom, my sister, has been a Trek fan too since we were kids—although not as big a Trek fan as I am....
     
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  11. Sam Favate

    Sam Favate Lead Actor

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    By request today, we showed the boys The Apple (TOS). They loved it. I remember loving it was I was their age too.

    Now I consider it a middle-of-the-road episode, but I have always had fond memories of it.
     
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  12. benbess

    benbess Cinematographer

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    I would consider "The Apple" a classic "so-bad-it's-sort-of-good" episode. It's enjoyable if you're in the right mood for an extra cringe-worthy Trek—and sometimes I am!

    And how about The Omega Glory?

     
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  13. Blimpoy06

    Blimpoy06 Supporting Actor

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    I consider "The Apple" a so good, it's great episode. I love the exploration of the Prime Directive here. The point is that the Enterprise crew are altering a civilization merely because it differs from what they consider normal. The population are in no danger. They are healthy, happy and innocent. What Kirk does is destroy their way of life and put them on the road of hardship and strife. As the title infers, Kirk has thrown the people of Gamma Trianguli VI out of paradise by introducing free will and disobedience.


    I enjoy seeing the large landing party on the planet in support of the mission. Lt. Kyle gets out of the transporter room on onto the bridge. Kirk is allowed to show the burden of command, self doubt and remorse at the loss of his crew. And if you want to ignore all that, it's just a fun action piece.
    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Nelson Au

    Nelson Au Executive Producer

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    I mentioned before that I learned the Preamble to the Constitution from The Omega Glory. I used to audio record Star Trek and remembered that Kirk reads the preamble. I had a class in high school and an assignment was to memorize the preamble. I listened to that preamble over and over and I memorized. It gave me a leg up as one day the class was being a bit bad and so our teacher made each student stand up and quote the premable. Since he went by alphabetical order, I was first. I was able to nail it and I suspect that everyone in class couldn’t do it as I was allowed to leave after I finished. I have to wonder if I used Shatner’s inflections though as I spoke the preamble. I still remember most of it. We...The People... of the United States..... I like this episode. I think it works on a lot of levels, it I get that that’s another example of a planet that evolves like Earth and has people that are very much like people on Earth. But it’s allegory.

    Back to Voyager, after having watched Endgame the other night, I followed up with two more episodes from the 4th season. I had already seen Scorpion a months ago, so it seemed like a good place to continue. I jumped in with Hunters and Prey. What was interesting is I had been seeing reports that Jeri Ryan was feeling very uncomfortable with a cast mate who was going out of hs/her way to make her life miserable. It turned out to be Kate Mulgrew and I’ve read her side from her comments in interviews and raw statements at conventions. She was under a lot of pressure at the start by the UPN suits as to whether she could pull off the Captain as the first female captain and after the Geneviève Bujold disaster. Plus the hair thing, the suits kept putting a lot of emphasis on her looks. She was working very hard to prove that a female captain could be a success without sexualizing the character. She was dead against her having a relationship with Chakotay. She felt after three seasons she made it. So for the producers to bring in Seven of Nine she felt betrayed and angry. So she took it out on Jeri Ryan. So this anger I thought was working for the character, unfortunate or not, it made for Janeway to be hard on Seven because Seven was trying to be an individual because Janeway wanted to free her from the collective and that made for times when she would oppose Janeway and Janeway had to put her foot down as she does at the end of Prey. I have not seen that episode for some time so it was interesting to see it in light of the recent surfacing of the news that Jeri Ryan was not happy on the set during that time. I read they’ve made up and are congenial now.
     
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  15. Nelson Au

    Nelson Au Executive Producer

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    Darin, I noted some of those things in a recent viewing of The Apple. So I’m in full agreement! :)
     
  16. KPmusmag

    KPmusmag Supporting Actor
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    Regarding the Voyager finale - how do we reconcile the fact that Picard and Data did away with The Borg Queen in First Contact and yet she is still around for Janeway to kill again? Did time reset? Or keeping with the hive idea, is there a "royal jelly" the Borg drones can feed to a selected individual to become queen, as with honey bees? Or am I over thinking. Sometimes it is best to just go along for the ride.
     
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  17. Lou Sytsma

    Lou Sytsma Producer

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    Yeah, I just took that there is more than one colony of Borg.
     
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  18. Sam Favate

    Sam Favate Lead Actor

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    It is a big continuity gaffe, but I think it is rationalized by saying that the queen's consciousness was transferred at or before her death - across the cosmos, I assume - to a new host body, or a clone, that looks just like the one in First Contact.
     
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  19. joshEH

    joshEH Producer

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    For probably the first time ever in Star Trek history, permission was actually given by the studio for the novels to reverse a major character-death that took place in the onscreen canon, and revive Trip offscreen (in Christopher L. Bennett's absolutely superb post-finale Rise of the Federation series). Love those books, and it brought Trip back from a truly-senseless, undeserved demise.
     
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  20. Jason_V

    Jason_V Producer

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    I have heard that, though I'm not to Rise of the Federation in my mission to read all the Trek books. Right now, I'm stuck on Rosetta and do one book at a time from each series.
     
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